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Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated w complete agar growth pics
    #12596703 -

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*** Updated ***  complete agar growth sequence pics added on page 2
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I'm sure this has been done before somewhere, but I couldn't find it.  Frankly I'm not even sure its legit, but I thought I'd post my "experimental findings" and see what you all think:

It was taking me many many agar transfers to get to a promising rizo isolate, and I was trying to come up with a short cut and I stumbled across this technique almost accidentally.

1)I took a few leftover grains of MS colonized rye berries and put them in a small clear container of pasteurized coir.  It was just like spawning, but the ratio was maybe 5 grains of rye to a cup or two of coir. 

2)I did this in a clear tupperware so I could watch what happened, if anything.

3)A few days later, possibly due to their extreme "isolation" in all that coir, all the grains started growing in extremely rizomorphic patterns.  Basically just an octopus of ropey myc strands reaching out radially from each grain.  The ones near the sides of the container made big beautiful patterns, reaching far across the tupperware.  The ones near the surface did the same thing on the surface, with long ropes jutting up from the surface into the air!

4)I let it grow like this for a while, and then just took a sterilized scalpel and cut a tiny section of the end of one of the aerial myc "ropes" and put it on agar.

5)Voila - beautiful single strain growth with no sectors.
I wound up with a bit of coir on the agar, so I did do one transfer to a new dish just for cleanliness sake.

Edit:  Added Pictures below - they were a lot more clearly defined at first, but the myc has continued to grow and fill in the areas in between the rizo 'ropes'.




Does that agar shot look like an isolate to you?  I'm not very experienced in making that call.

Edited by gornyhuy (05/24/10 08:37 AM)

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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: gornyhuy]
    #12596709 -

Sound plausible.


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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: Doc_T]
    #12596720 -

Definately doable:thumbup:I do the same type thing, but I do it out of a pf jar, and take the most rhizo inoculation hole, and tear/suck it up in a syringe, and shoot it into my new cakes...You're on to something:wink:

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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: SomeGuy]
    #12596860 -

Added pics to first post.


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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: gornyhuy]
    #12596866 -

Looks quite fuzzy on that agar, hope its not cobweb.

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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: madi]
    #12596877 -

madi said:
Looks quite fuzzy on that agar, hope its not cobweb.



I'm fairly confident its not cobweb... most of my agar work looks like that, maybe its the crappy 'grocery store tek' agar I make.

Also - that transfer is fairly fresh, by the time it starts growing out on the plate it usually looks less fuzzy.


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Edited by gornyhuy (05/20/10 09:18 AM)

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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: gornyhuy]
    #12596912 -

Its just so thin and fuzzy. But you'll see it soon if it is. But I trust you that its myc. Did you take any other pieces than this one?

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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: madi]
    #12596929 -

madi said:
Its just so thin and fuzzy. But you'll see it soon if it is. But I trust you that its myc. Did you take any other pieces than this one?



:frown: Next thing I know it will be a fight to the death between trich and cobweb... :smile:

I still have the original coir bed and the 'messy' first plate, so I can do more, but no this is the only "isolate" i have going at the moment.  Its just an experiment, really.

There - I changed the post title to 'experiment' :smile:


--------------------
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Edited by gornyhuy (05/20/10 09:21 AM)

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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: madi]
    #12596955 -

You're taking an awfully unnecessary contamination risk by taking samples from a container that was not spawned under the same sterile conditions we normally use for grains and agar. Spores that landed on the coir will come with the mycelium pieces you take.

Even with one grain in a coir tub you are not guaranteed that this "extreme isolation" will get you monocultures.

Which in the end means you have to do more agar work. So why not start there in the first place and always have your work under sterile conditions.


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Changing your mind is one of the best ways of finding out whether or not you still have one.

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Re: Isolate Shortcut [Re: wygram]
    #12596970 -

wygram said:
You're taking an awfully unnecessary contamination risk by taking samples from a container that was not spawned under the same sterile conditions we normally use for grains and agar. Spores that landed on the coir will come with the mycelium pieces you take.

Even with one grain in a coir tub you are not guaranteed that this "extreme isolation" will get you monocultures.

Which in the end means you have to do more agar work. So why not start there in the first place and always have your work under sterile conditions.



Good point - I guess I was just trying to force the myc into a rizo growth pattern and then take a small sample of that and isolate it on agar to reduce the number of transfers necessary to get to a monoculture.


--------------------
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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: gornyhuy]
    #12597127 -

Well done gorny! Exeperimenting new things is always good :super:


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You have to die a few times before you can really live.

-Charles Bukowski-

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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: LeopardMan]
    #12597237 -

I would assume it is not an isolate because that growth is not in a perfectly uniform circle. A pure isolate will not have any kinds of bulging disproportionate to the rest of the growth. But that is a cool idea. I've had rhizomorphic growth just after 1 transfer but it was not an isolate though. I think your idea could work but it's a little more risky than regular agar work.


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By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din

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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: LeopardMan]
    #12597269 -

I dont see why it wouldnt work. I wouldnt put all my eggs into one basket. It could likely be a non fruiter. Do several more sectors and you'll have a better chance at a fruiting sector.

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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: Cloneufc]
    #12597434 -

Cloneufc said:
I dont see why it wouldnt work. I wouldnt put all my eggs into one basket. It could likely be a non fruiter. Do several more sectors and you'll have a better chance at a fruiting sector.



Agreed - which is why I prefer to clone a nice cluster of fruits and isolate from there. 

Maybe I suck at agar, but from spores it seems to take *many* transfers before I get isolates.


--------------------
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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: SillyBilly]
    #12597455 -

SillyBilly said:
I would assume it is not an isolate because that growth is not in a perfectly uniform circle.



I assumed this was because of the wacky shape of the transferred tissue.  Its fairly close to a perfect circle and the bulges seem to correspond to the shape of the tissue in the middle.


--------------------
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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: LeopardMan]
    #12597457 -

LeopardMan said:
Well done gorny! Exeperimenting new things is always good :super:



Just following your pioneering spirit. :cool:


--------------------
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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: gornyhuy]
    #12597606 -

gornyhuy said:
Cloneufc said:
I dont see why it wouldnt work. I wouldnt put all my eggs into one basket. It could likely be a non fruiter. Do several more sectors and you'll have a better chance at a fruiting sector.



Agreed - which is why I prefer to clone a nice cluster of fruits and isolate from there. 

Maybe I suck at agar, but from spores it seems to take *many* transfers before I get isolates.



Very true, + when you fruit an isolate chances are you might get short little fuglys.

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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: Breakfast Crew]
    #12597860 -

Mycelium taken from fruits might be good for finding cultures with desirable traits more easily than fruiting out multiple isolates, but even that may not be the case.

The biggest drawback is that you are getting an aged culture, which has already gone through a fruiting cycle. This is really important since the culture will probably end up having to under go a spawn expansion run, and they already have some age to them. Young fresh cultures, cold-stored are the exact opposite.

It also is a mash-up of different sub-strains of widely different traits, some good some bad. So in the end what grows are most likely average mushrooms. Easier to find "good" ones in favor of "outstanding" ones. While you don't have to test a number of isolates, how hard is that really? A BRF cake per?


--------------------
Changing your mind is one of the best ways of finding out whether or not you still have one.

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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: wygram]
    #12597906 -

wygram said:
Mycelium taken from fruits might be good for finding cultures with desirable traits more easily than fruiting out multiple isolates, but even that may not be the case.

The biggest drawback is that you are getting an aged culture, which has already gone through a fruiting cycle. This is really important since the culture will probably end up having to under go a spawn expansion run, and they already have some age to them. Young fresh cultures, cold-stored are the exact opposite.

It also is a mash-up of different sub-strains of widely different traits, some good some bad. So in the end what grows are most likely average mushrooms. Easier to find "good" ones in favor of "outstanding" ones. While you don't have to test a number of isolates, how hard is that really? A BRF cake per?



So best practices would be:
-spores to agar
-transfer most rizo sectors
-repeat until looks like monoculture
-agar wedge to BRF(? how do you recommend testing the isolated strains?)
-fruit them out, keep the best performers
-create slants for cold storage
-in future, start new agar from slant, wedge to grains, grains to bulk

Correct?
Thoughts on the test phase best practices?


--------------------
:mushroom2:Bulk Grow Substrate Calculator Spreadsheet - Download :heartpump: Thread:mushroom2:
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Re: Isolate Shortcut Experiment - *updated with pics [Re: gornyhuy]
    #12597920 -

IMO, spores should never be directly transferred to agar. Using live tissue or colonized grain is a good starting point.

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