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InvisiblefahtsterM
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The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. * 9
    #7708447 - 12/02/07 09:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

DISCLAIMER AND MOST RECENT UPDATE 5/19/14:

So when I developed this tek, it was in conjunction with how I made my tubs (which can be found here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7893964/an/0/page/2).  If you look in that link you'll see that I layered my tubs (more recently I put an edit that I would 'nowadays' mix the bottom part of the tub and apply a grain layer on top of that; then a layer of bulk substrate over the grain layer like I did in the original post).  That top section of the substrate block is why late casing works so well.  The top layer of just substrate forces the grain layer under it to colonize vertically away from the high nutrient source which what a casing applied at 100% colonization does; so the need to apply a casing early is negated... hence why late casing works in that situation.  If you have a mixed tub where the grain is part of that top layer, you are probably going to want to do a normal casing at 100% colonization.  Casing early with a mixed tub is going to force vertical myc growth which is what you want for pin production.  Late casing a mixed tub will more than likely NOT be as beneficial as the below post indicates.



ORIGINAL POSTvv

Hi there,

I've been using a method called late casing... It's basically very simple and just how it sounds; applying the casing only after knotting has started and a few small pins start forming... so far it's been working great.  I'm sure it'll have many rebuttals, but I say give it a try for yourself and see what ya think.. I know youz use hyphae's casing strategy and from what I can see, it also works great... this is just another way about it. :thumbup:  disclaimer: all of this is IMO and experience you can use whatever method you find fit, but I just want you to listen to why I think it's a good idea:

1.  If you keep a casing layer off the top of the substrate and expose the sub to light from the time you lay it out, you are initiating knotting on the entirety of the top of the substrate.  This will ultimately give you more fruits, at least some more fruits compared to the alternative.  When you cover the sub with a casing layer, you are cutting off light penetration to some of the sub. 

2.  (a) The casing layer should not be colonized at all.. I don't care what anyone says.. thats not what it's for.  It's not to hydrate the sub either, that just seems ridiculous to me.  it does slow the release of evaporating water from the top of the substrate but while thats an important part it's a bit different than supplying the sub with hydration.  The casing is to trap small air pockets of moist air to encourage developing pins and knots.. If the casing layer is colonized, the substrate cannot breathe like it should be able to.
   
    (b) The substrate doesn't use the casing layer after the fruits have developed passed small pins.  The fruits themselves act as the fruiting environment.  If you think of an uncased bin, does it have a casing layer?  The answer is actually yes; the entire rest of the bin is the fruiting environment... when you apply a casing layer, you are basically shrinking that fruiting environment down to the 1/2 inch directly above the substrate.  This encourages the knots to form into pins and those pins to go on to develop into small mushrooms.. But then what happens after the fruits grow above the casing layer?  Thats when the fruits themselves become the fruiting environment for each other... kind of a one hand washes the other situation.  I mean think about it.. if you put one cake in the middle of a 54 qt bin by itself, do you think that would do as well as if you put 24 cakes in that bin?  no, because the cakes use the heat and perspiration of the cakes surrounding them as a fruiting environment.  The same reason that the chronic tek works so well.. it's a cake in a small environment.  heres an example of what I mean...



notice in that pic how the casing layer is barely colonized if at all.  The substrate at this point has stopped using the casing layer in the sense that the fruits are using it.. but the casing layer is using it in the sense that the casing is slowing the evaporation of water from the top of the substrate.  And since the casing layer was added after the sub switched from the colonizing stage to the fruiting stage, the casing layer is not being consumed which helps the sub breathe.  This also keeps the sub from spending vital energy on colonizing the casing.  I know you've all noticed that once your bins' fruits reach a certain height, the bins are considerably warmer and moister inside.  This is because the fruits are making that environment; basically helping themselves grow.  So if you take a look at that pic, the actual casing layer (or fruiting environment) is from the top of the sub to about 4.5 inches above it.. the whole length of the fruits themselves.  (sorry for the redundancy, just trying to really hit that home).

3.  Another reason that this is a good idea is the length of time that the casing material is exposed to the substrate is greatly reduced.  This in turns reduces the amount of risk the casing layer imposes on the substrate in harboring contamination.  In example...

the amount of time it took this bin to get from here (right when the sub started pinning and the casing was applied)



to looking like this...



was a mere four days.  And since the time is so short, there should be no reason to add water to the casing after you first apply it.

heres other bins that have been late cased: all are 54 Qt bins except for the last tex bin, thats just a shorter version of the 54 qt.

that same bin in the first pic (SA's) only a couple days later..


The other two HB bins..
 

And a Tex popcorn verm rez bin that was also late cased..
 

Now, I'm strictly speaking of the bulk and grain casing methods and not for cakes.  I actually do use the DECing's for water retention and cake hydration and not the usual method of a casing that the fruits grow "up" through.

I would love to hear any opinions and ideas about this and they are more than welcome.  I just ask that you keep in respectful. :wink:  Thanks for taking the time to check this out.

Here is also another thread you should check out on casing... it's the most standard way of casing... lots of good info here

Fahtster


Edited by fahtster (05/19/14 08:05 PM)


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: fahtster]
    #7708473 - 12/02/07 10:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Looks good man, some of your fruits look really decent in size. Seems you have less large fruits reaching maturity rather then many smaller fruits. Looks like it is worth giving a try thats for sure.


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: theratatat]
    #7708568 - 12/02/07 10:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This one goes in the favorites. Thanks!

Quote:

Another reason that this is a good idea is the length of time that the casing material is exposed to the substrate is greatly reduced. This in turns reduces the amount of risk the casing layer imposes on the substrate in harboring contamination.



I have a question though... If you are trying to prevent the casing from becoming colonized, isn't that exposure of uncolonized casing during subsequent flushes risking contamination? You have clearly had much success with this late casing, and am just a little curious about how it's working out later in the game...


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: thedefone]
    #7708614 - 12/02/07 10:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

thanks. :smile:  I haven't had too many problems in the later flushes.. if you want to check out how that SA bin did in the later flushes--I had three total--and the other two bins that I did along with it (one was uncased, and one was cased but before the knotting and pinning started) here is that thread... http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7478869/an/0/page/0 neither of the other two bins did that badly at all actually, just not as prolific as that late cased one.  And the uncased bin did throw off a better second and third flush, so I guess it could be argued that uncased are close to if not just as good as cased ones

The HB bins are just now going into their second flush, but it's nothing to write home about... I didn't really expect a huge second flush due to the turnout of the first, but i'll take it.  As for your question, the casing does start to get colonized it's just not nearly as fast as it would be if the substrate wasn't in the fruiting phase.  I've been a little lazy with my second flushes but if one wanted to, since the casing isn't colonized very much, it would be quite easy to remove and replace with a newly pasteurized one. :smile:

fahtster


Edited by fahtster (12/02/07 10:49 PM)


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: fahtster]
    #7708638 - 12/02/07 10:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A casing layer is to increase humidity for pin formation not humidity during fruiting, it just drys out during fruiting.


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: budmanman]
    #7708661 - 12/02/07 10:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

that is correct.

Quote:

2. (a) The casing layer should not be colonized at all.. I don't care what anyone says.. thats not what it's for. It's not to hydrate the sub either, that just seems ridiculous to me. it does slow the release of evaporating water from the top of the substrate but while thats an important part it's a bit different than supplying the sub with hydration. The casing is to trap small air pockets of moist air to encourage developing pins and knots.. If the casing layer is colonized, the substrate cannot breathe like it should be able to.




and I'm not implying that everyone or anyone, really, thinks that it's for anything else, it's just a common misconception that I've heard over the years. :smile:


Edited by fahtster (12/02/07 11:02 PM)


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: fahtster]
    #7708745 - 12/02/07 11:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This looks really great, were those 3 tubs from an isolate? If so it seems pretty solid, have you done any more side by side comparisons? One other thing i was wondering does the uncolonized casing layer pose a problem if you want to dunk, i mean wouldn't most of it just wash away. Thanks again and beautiful grows, definitely some of the best Ive seen in a while.


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Re: Late Casing *DELETED* [Re: fahtster]
    #7708843 - 12/02/07 11:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Morelman

Reason for deletion: Never again...



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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: synergistic]
    #7708861 - 12/02/07 11:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yeah, I suppose that could pose a problem, I just let my subs float in water for 24 - 36 hours in a partially enclosed tub, that seems to let them soak up the water while not totally cutting off it's air supply... the casing doesn't get touched really that way, but if you were to dunk, you probably could just pour it off and apply another one, or just go with out it, noncased subs don't seem to do that badly, esp. on later flushes...  I'll definitely be doing more tests and, like you said, side-by-side comparisons.. just wanted to get the idea out there.  thanks for the props. :smile:

fahtster


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Morelman]
    #7708878 - 12/02/07 11:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

nah.. they're actually don't get too bad.. if you look at the pics, I didn't clean them or anything, I think it's because they break thru the casing layer while they are still really small.. maybe a few kernels here and there, but for the most part they are nice clean. :mushroom2:

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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7709723 - 12/03/07 07:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This is an interesting experiment, that i think other people should give a go and see how it works out.

There are points you make that make sense and this may be a very viable method.

The only thing is though is about the light, as yes the casing layer will be able to block some light, but if your using a good and strong enough light, it will be able to penetrate the casing and get to the sub. That is why alot of people recomend using a fluerescent daylight tube.

But having the sub exposed until it starts to pin does seem like a good idea as its less likely to colinise the casing (does the myc really colinise it, or does it just grow threw the casing??) plus the surface would seem to get exposed to much more FAE.

For good hyphel knot formation its important to have high humidity at the surface, if you can provide this without the casing layer (which shouldnt be to diffult) then leaving the casing layer till pins shouldnt be a problem (i think casings can relieve to need for high humidity for some people that struggle)

It seems to have worked well for you, i have seem casings done the regular way work just aswell except you have no colinisation of the casing.

Keep up the good work. Its good to try things for yourself and work out new ways of doing things.

Im gonna keep an eye on this and see how this develops.

I have never done casings before, but have done alot of reading into it, anything i have said might not be quite accurate, im just throwing some thoughts around. Its in no way meant to taken as saying you have a few things wrong or soething to that effect (im sure it doesnt come accross that way)

Experiment on, if people didnt experiment then we would all be stuck still doing the pf tek.


--------------------

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Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
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Re: Late Casing [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7709737 - 12/03/07 07:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What are the substrates? I imagine this system will work well with poo or coir but not very well with plain grain, as uncased it doesn't really fruit...

What are you using?


V interesting post btw


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Nibin]
    #7709936 - 12/03/07 09:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I am intrigued by this... I currently have to tubs of grain spawned to coir running side by side that I might try this on, one cased traditionally and one "late cased."

Are you pH buffering your casing material? It seems to me that this would be key in preventing trich infection during subsequent flushes, otherwise the low pH of the uncolonized peat would be prime real estate for the green enemy.


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Sillicybin]
    #7710050 - 12/03/07 10:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i saw you mentioning this over at 'topia before i ever got into casings, and all of them have been done this way, with pretty good results, though i havent tried any other way, so i wouldnt be able to give a good comparisonn. but thanks for the advice and guidance!


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Re: Late Casing [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7710308 - 12/03/07 12:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the enthusiasm everyone, it's very inspiring. :thumbup:

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
This is an interesting experiment, that i think other people should give a go and see how it works out.

There are points you make that make sense and this may be a very viable method.

The only thing is though is about the light, as yes the casing layer will be able to block some light, but if your using a good and strong enough light, it will be able to penetrate the casing and get to the sub. That is why alot of people recomend using a fluerescent daylight tube.

But having the sub exposed until it starts to pin does seem like a good idea as its less likely to colinise the casing (does the myc really colinise it, or does it just grow threw the casing??) plus the surface would seem to get exposed to much more FAE.

For good hyphel knot formation its important to have high humidity at the surface, if you can provide this without the casing layer (which shouldnt be to diffult) then leaving the casing layer till pins shouldnt be a problem (i think casings can relieve to need for high humidity for some people that struggle)

It seems to have worked well for you, i have seem casings done the regular way work just aswell except you have no colinisation of the casing.

Keep up the good work. Its good to try things for yourself and work out new ways of doing things.

Im gonna keep an eye on this and see how this develops.

I have never done casings before, but have done alot of reading into it, anything i have said might not be quite accurate, im just throwing some thoughts around. Its in no way meant to taken as saying you have a few things wrong or soething to that effect (im sure it doesnt come accross that way)

Experiment on, if people didnt experiment then we would all be stuck still doing the pf tek.




I'm not taking anything the wrong way at all. :wink:  This definitely something new to me as well..  And all the points above that I make are just results of me brainstorming on the idea... I'm definitely not trying to seem like "this is the way it is", I also hope I'm not coming off as that.  This just seems to be giving me consistent results.  I actually decided to post this thread as a response to someone having a question about overlay in this thread... http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7696965/an/0/page/0/gonew/1#UNREAD  The idea being that if one was having lots of trouble with overlay, they could give this a try to try and solve that problem.  :smile:

Quote:

Nibin said:
What are the substrates? I imagine this system will work well with poo or coir but not very well with plain grain, as uncased it doesn't really fruit...

What are you using?


V interesting post btw




This also brings up a very important (I believe) point that I need to expand on... I whole heartedly agree that grains are hard to get to fruit by themselves... that Tex bin was done on popcorn but it had about a handful of moist to wet verm mixed in with the popcorn when it was laid out.  so by no means was that a straight grain casing.  I think that def. helped with the pinning, not to mention those are tex and they pin faster than any strain I've worked with, so it's not exactly difficult to get them to pin.  But with those bulk bins, I think it's important to note how they are made.  The top of the substrate is obviously the most important part of the sub due to that being where the fruits come from, so with that in mind this is how the tubs are made... The first three inches or so (bottom part of the sub) of the sub are mixed in with the grain spawn.. then after that is in the bin and flattened out, I take the remaining two qts of spawn and lay those out evenly in a layer on top of the sub... then I cover that grain layer with about an inch or so of Hpoo/straw..  I have found that esp. rye grows absolutely horribly by itself.. the fruits get to a certain point and then just shit out. 

This happened here too


see how I laid grain out on top of the substrate?  This is how that tub ended up...


there were other factors along with that that made that bin crappy compared to the recent ones I've done like poor rh and bacterial infection, but I believe the rye is responsible for them starting to abort after a certain size.  I'm not sure if there is just a nute missing in the rye that the Hpoo/straw make up for or what, but that would be my guess.  I came to this conclusion because I did multiple strains and tubs with just straight rye (plus a verm rez but that in non nutritious and shouldn't be a factor in fruit development) heres a tub of PE on straight rye.. I was doing a casing comparison.. actually did two of these tubs at the same time this is just one of them... the comparisons were that each quadrant of colonized grain was cased differently... one was plain fine verm... one was fine verm with coir... one was plain course verm... one was course verm with coir to see what casing would work best... this is how it turned out...


I was like WTF??  I KNOW I didn't make the environment that much different than the popcorn and wbs I've used...

Then I did a chitwan/nepal grow with straight rye and this is what it turned out like...


So I said thats it... it's gotta be the rye by itself that is fucking my shit up, at least the rye that I have... So I decided to put the rye under the inch layer of Hpoo/straw and they grew big and beautiful and healthy looking as ever. lol 

So in conclusion, don't spread rye on the top of the bulk substrate, be sure to bury it under the bulk... I don't think that is an issue, however, with other grains such as wbs since I've not had a prob with any other grain besides rye.

The reason I think this also works besides the possible nute deficiency in rye is that when you put the bulk sub over the rye, it forces the myc to grow up through the bulk substrate... This produces ropey rhizos and is less likely to become matted, in effect the bulk sub actually becomes a pseudo casing layer... and if you expose the bin to light that whole time it is colonizing, by the time that that top layer is colonized, the substrate starts producing knots and pins from those ropey rhizos... and by late casing at this point, one is helping those knots and pins continue to form and thrive. 

I guess thats all pretty important information I should have added from the get go but I've got a lot of projects going and sometimes I'm a space cadet. 

This SA bin was done in the same fashion as the SA bin in that first post I did but the late casing was left off and you can see how that top inch bulk sub layer is acting like a pseudo casing and helping with the ropey rhizos... although it still isn't as prolific as that bin in the first post which is what I think the late casing helped do..



I think a lot of those knots on the bare spots on the top of that sub would have developed into pins had there been that extra thin late casing on there

the casing layer also helps with the pooling of water on the top of the substrate by absorbing some and preventing it also. :smile:

Quote:

Sillicybin said:
I am intrigued by this... I currently have to tubs of grain spawned to coir running side by side that I might try this on, one cased traditionally and one "late cased."

Are you pH buffering your casing material?  It seems to me that this would be key in preventing trich infection during subsequent flushes, otherwise the low pH of the uncolonized peat would be prime real estate for the green enemy.




I'm using coir/verm so I'm not using any buffer, but it's probably not a bad idea.

fahtster


Edited by fahtster (12/03/07 12:16 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7710365 - 12/03/07 12:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's what I like about you fahts, you're always breaking the rules, and then posting the results. Keep it up, and let us know how this progresses.
RR


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7710402 - 12/03/07 12:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Five shrooms for you man. :mushroom2: :thumbup:
I've always been scared of using casing layer becouse of my failures with it, so all of my grows were Rye spawned to Hpoo. Now I will certainly try to introduce this methods and findings of yours into my grows.

thanks and keep up the good work :smile:


Edited by strengthener (12/03/07 12:35 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7710405 - 12/03/07 12:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


Edited by drwatson (05/31/08 11:14 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: drwatson]
    #7710472 - 12/03/07 12:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

you definatly have some very well thought out grows there with no nonsense explanations.

theres tons of stuff that I have never really thought of and has kinda filled in some missing bits of information.

which is why a try and read any new threads that pop up, as therees bound to be great posts that lead to interesting discussions.

this has been the best one have followed in a while.

so much too learn!

5+


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7711257 - 12/03/07 03:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm pretty into this idea. I have a small-ish (20 cm diameter?) tub of rye-to-coir that I'm going to a) put in FC and put on a sheet of crinkly wax paper, b) wait for knots, c) apply thin casing layer.

Because the only problem I could foresee with this is having the top layer of the tub dry out while waiting for knots. I don't like misting uncased substrate...b/c it always pools up in a spot or two. Will post results if I get anything amazing.

Thanks for pushing the envelope.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation >> Mushroom Cultivation Archive >> Casing

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