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The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. * 9
    #7708447 - 12/02/07 10:57 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

DISCLAIMER AND MOST RECENT UPDATE 5/19/14:

So when I developed this tek, it was in conjunction with how I made my tubs (which can be found here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7893964/an/0/page/2).  If you look in that link you'll see that I layered my tubs (more recently I put an edit that I would 'nowadays' mix the bottom part of the tub and apply a grain layer on top of that; then a layer of bulk substrate over the grain layer like I did in the original post).  That top section of the substrate block is why late casing works so well.  The top layer of just substrate forces the grain layer under it to colonize vertically away from the high nutrient source which what a casing applied at 100% colonization does; so the need to apply a casing early is negated... hence why late casing works in that situation.  If you have a mixed tub where the grain is part of that top layer, you are probably going to want to do a normal casing at 100% colonization.  Casing early with a mixed tub is going to force vertical myc growth which is what you want for pin production.  Late casing a mixed tub will more than likely NOT be as beneficial as the below post indicates.



ORIGINAL POSTvv

Hi there,

I've been using a method called late casing... It's basically very simple and just how it sounds; applying the casing only after knotting has started and a few small pins start forming... so far it's been working great.  I'm sure it'll have many rebuttals, but I say give it a try for yourself and see what ya think.. I know youz use hyphae's casing strategy and from what I can see, it also works great... this is just another way about it. :thumbup:  disclaimer: all of this is IMO and experience you can use whatever method you find fit, but I just want you to listen to why I think it's a good idea:

1.  If you keep a casing layer off the top of the substrate and expose the sub to light from the time you lay it out, you are initiating knotting on the entirety of the top of the substrate.  This will ultimately give you more fruits, at least some more fruits compared to the alternative.  When you cover the sub with a casing layer, you are cutting off light penetration to some of the sub. 

2.  (a) The casing layer should not be colonized at all.. I don't care what anyone says.. thats not what it's for.  It's not to hydrate the sub either, that just seems ridiculous to me.  it does slow the release of evaporating water from the top of the substrate but while thats an important part it's a bit different than supplying the sub with hydration.  The casing is to trap small air pockets of moist air to encourage developing pins and knots.. If the casing layer is colonized, the substrate cannot breathe like it should be able to.
   
    (b) The substrate doesn't use the casing layer after the fruits have developed passed small pins.  The fruits themselves act as the fruiting environment.  If you think of an uncased bin, does it have a casing layer?  The answer is actually yes; the entire rest of the bin is the fruiting environment... when you apply a casing layer, you are basically shrinking that fruiting environment down to the 1/2 inch directly above the substrate.  This encourages the knots to form into pins and those pins to go on to develop into small mushrooms.. But then what happens after the fruits grow above the casing layer?  Thats when the fruits themselves become the fruiting environment for each other... kind of a one hand washes the other situation.  I mean think about it.. if you put one cake in the middle of a 54 qt bin by itself, do you think that would do as well as if you put 24 cakes in that bin?  no, because the cakes use the heat and perspiration of the cakes surrounding them as a fruiting environment.  The same reason that the chronic tek works so well.. it's a cake in a small environment.  heres an example of what I mean...



notice in that pic how the casing layer is barely colonized if at all.  The substrate at this point has stopped using the casing layer in the sense that the fruits are using it.. but the casing layer is using it in the sense that the casing is slowing the evaporation of water from the top of the substrate.  And since the casing layer was added after the sub switched from the colonizing stage to the fruiting stage, the casing layer is not being consumed which helps the sub breathe.  This also keeps the sub from spending vital energy on colonizing the casing.  I know you've all noticed that once your bins' fruits reach a certain height, the bins are considerably warmer and moister inside.  This is because the fruits are making that environment; basically helping themselves grow.  So if you take a look at that pic, the actual casing layer (or fruiting environment) is from the top of the sub to about 4.5 inches above it.. the whole length of the fruits themselves.  (sorry for the redundancy, just trying to really hit that home).

3.  Another reason that this is a good idea is the length of time that the casing material is exposed to the substrate is greatly reduced.  This in turns reduces the amount of risk the casing layer imposes on the substrate in harboring contamination.  In example...

the amount of time it took this bin to get from here (right when the sub started pinning and the casing was applied)



to looking like this...



was a mere four days.  And since the time is so short, there should be no reason to add water to the casing after you first apply it.

heres other bins that have been late cased: all are 54 Qt bins except for the last tex bin, thats just a shorter version of the 54 qt.

that same bin in the first pic (SA's) only a couple days later..


The other two HB bins..
 

And a Tex popcorn verm rez bin that was also late cased..
 

Now, I'm strictly speaking of the bulk and grain casing methods and not for cakes.  I actually do use the DECing's for water retention and cake hydration and not the usual method of a casing that the fruits grow "up" through.

I would love to hear any opinions and ideas about this and they are more than welcome.  I just ask that you keep in respectful. :wink:  Thanks for taking the time to check this out.

Here is also another thread you should check out on casing... it's the most standard way of casing... lots of good info here

Fahtster


Edited by fahtster (05/19/14 09:05 PM)


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: fahtster]
    #7708473 - 12/02/07 11:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Looks good man, some of your fruits look really decent in size. Seems you have less large fruits reaching maturity rather then many smaller fruits. Looks like it is worth giving a try thats for sure.


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: theratatat]
    #7708568 - 12/02/07 11:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This one goes in the favorites. Thanks!

Quote:

Another reason that this is a good idea is the length of time that the casing material is exposed to the substrate is greatly reduced. This in turns reduces the amount of risk the casing layer imposes on the substrate in harboring contamination.



I have a question though... If you are trying to prevent the casing from becoming colonized, isn't that exposure of uncolonized casing during subsequent flushes risking contamination? You have clearly had much success with this late casing, and am just a little curious about how it's working out later in the game...


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: thedefone]
    #7708614 - 12/02/07 11:46 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

thanks. :smile:  I haven't had too many problems in the later flushes.. if you want to check out how that SA bin did in the later flushes--I had three total--and the other two bins that I did along with it (one was uncased, and one was cased but before the knotting and pinning started) here is that thread... http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7478869/an/0/page/0 neither of the other two bins did that badly at all actually, just not as prolific as that late cased one.  And the uncased bin did throw off a better second and third flush, so I guess it could be argued that uncased are close to if not just as good as cased ones

The HB bins are just now going into their second flush, but it's nothing to write home about... I didn't really expect a huge second flush due to the turnout of the first, but i'll take it.  As for your question, the casing does start to get colonized it's just not nearly as fast as it would be if the substrate wasn't in the fruiting phase.  I've been a little lazy with my second flushes but if one wanted to, since the casing isn't colonized very much, it would be quite easy to remove and replace with a newly pasteurized one. :smile:

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Edited by fahtster (12/02/07 11:49 PM)


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: fahtster]
    #7708638 - 12/02/07 11:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

A casing layer is to increase humidity for pin formation not humidity during fruiting, it just drys out during fruiting.


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: budmanman]
    #7708661 - 12/02/07 11:56 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

that is correct.

Quote:

2. (a) The casing layer should not be colonized at all.. I don't care what anyone says.. thats not what it's for. It's not to hydrate the sub either, that just seems ridiculous to me. it does slow the release of evaporating water from the top of the substrate but while thats an important part it's a bit different than supplying the sub with hydration. The casing is to trap small air pockets of moist air to encourage developing pins and knots.. If the casing layer is colonized, the substrate cannot breathe like it should be able to.




and I'm not implying that everyone or anyone, really, thinks that it's for anything else, it's just a common misconception that I've heard over the years. :smile:


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Edited by fahtster (12/03/07 12:02 AM)


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: fahtster]
    #7708745 - 12/03/07 12:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This looks really great, were those 3 tubs from an isolate? If so it seems pretty solid, have you done any more side by side comparisons? One other thing i was wondering does the uncolonized casing layer pose a problem if you want to dunk, i mean wouldn't most of it just wash away. Thanks again and beautiful grows, definitely some of the best Ive seen in a while.


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Re: Late Casing *DELETED* [Re: fahtster]
    #7708843 - 12/03/07 12:34 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Morelman

Reason for deletion: Never again...



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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. [Re: synergistic]
    #7708861 - 12/03/07 12:37 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, I suppose that could pose a problem, I just let my subs float in water for 24 - 36 hours in a partially enclosed tub, that seems to let them soak up the water while not totally cutting off it's air supply... the casing doesn't get touched really that way, but if you were to dunk, you probably could just pour it off and apply another one, or just go with out it, noncased subs don't seem to do that badly, esp. on later flushes...  I'll definitely be doing more tests and, like you said, side-by-side comparisons.. just wanted to get the idea out there.  thanks for the props. :smile:

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Re: Late Casing [Re: Morelman]
    #7708878 - 12/03/07 12:40 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

nah.. they're actually don't get too bad.. if you look at the pics, I didn't clean them or anything, I think it's because they break thru the casing layer while they are still really small.. maybe a few kernels here and there, but for the most part they are nice clean. :mushroom2:

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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7709723 - 12/03/07 08:02 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This is an interesting experiment, that i think other people should give a go and see how it works out.

There are points you make that make sense and this may be a very viable method.

The only thing is though is about the light, as yes the casing layer will be able to block some light, but if your using a good and strong enough light, it will be able to penetrate the casing and get to the sub. That is why alot of people recomend using a fluerescent daylight tube.

But having the sub exposed until it starts to pin does seem like a good idea as its less likely to colinise the casing (does the myc really colinise it, or does it just grow threw the casing??) plus the surface would seem to get exposed to much more FAE.

For good hyphel knot formation its important to have high humidity at the surface, if you can provide this without the casing layer (which shouldnt be to diffult) then leaving the casing layer till pins shouldnt be a problem (i think casings can relieve to need for high humidity for some people that struggle)

It seems to have worked well for you, i have seem casings done the regular way work just aswell except you have no colinisation of the casing.

Keep up the good work. Its good to try things for yourself and work out new ways of doing things.

Im gonna keep an eye on this and see how this develops.

I have never done casings before, but have done alot of reading into it, anything i have said might not be quite accurate, im just throwing some thoughts around. Its in no way meant to taken as saying you have a few things wrong or soething to that effect (im sure it doesnt come accross that way)

Experiment on, if people didnt experiment then we would all be stuck still doing the pf tek.


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Re: Late Casing [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7709737 - 12/03/07 08:21 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What are the substrates? I imagine this system will work well with poo or coir but not very well with plain grain, as uncased it doesn't really fruit...

What are you using?


V interesting post btw


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Nibin]
    #7709936 - 12/03/07 10:38 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I am intrigued by this... I currently have to tubs of grain spawned to coir running side by side that I might try this on, one cased traditionally and one "late cased."

Are you pH buffering your casing material? It seems to me that this would be key in preventing trich infection during subsequent flushes, otherwise the low pH of the uncolonized peat would be prime real estate for the green enemy.


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Sillicybin]
    #7710050 - 12/03/07 11:39 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i saw you mentioning this over at 'topia before i ever got into casings, and all of them have been done this way, with pretty good results, though i havent tried any other way, so i wouldnt be able to give a good comparisonn. but thanks for the advice and guidance!


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Re: Late Casing [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7710308 - 12/03/07 01:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the enthusiasm everyone, it's very inspiring. :thumbup:

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
This is an interesting experiment, that i think other people should give a go and see how it works out.

There are points you make that make sense and this may be a very viable method.

The only thing is though is about the light, as yes the casing layer will be able to block some light, but if your using a good and strong enough light, it will be able to penetrate the casing and get to the sub. That is why alot of people recomend using a fluerescent daylight tube.

But having the sub exposed until it starts to pin does seem like a good idea as its less likely to colinise the casing (does the myc really colinise it, or does it just grow threw the casing??) plus the surface would seem to get exposed to much more FAE.

For good hyphel knot formation its important to have high humidity at the surface, if you can provide this without the casing layer (which shouldnt be to diffult) then leaving the casing layer till pins shouldnt be a problem (i think casings can relieve to need for high humidity for some people that struggle)

It seems to have worked well for you, i have seem casings done the regular way work just aswell except you have no colinisation of the casing.

Keep up the good work. Its good to try things for yourself and work out new ways of doing things.

Im gonna keep an eye on this and see how this develops.

I have never done casings before, but have done alot of reading into it, anything i have said might not be quite accurate, im just throwing some thoughts around. Its in no way meant to taken as saying you have a few things wrong or soething to that effect (im sure it doesnt come accross that way)

Experiment on, if people didnt experiment then we would all be stuck still doing the pf tek.




I'm not taking anything the wrong way at all. :wink:  This definitely something new to me as well..  And all the points above that I make are just results of me brainstorming on the idea... I'm definitely not trying to seem like "this is the way it is", I also hope I'm not coming off as that.  This just seems to be giving me consistent results.  I actually decided to post this thread as a response to someone having a question about overlay in this thread... http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7696965/an/0/page/0/gonew/1#UNREAD  The idea being that if one was having lots of trouble with overlay, they could give this a try to try and solve that problem.  :smile:

Quote:

Nibin said:
What are the substrates? I imagine this system will work well with poo or coir but not very well with plain grain, as uncased it doesn't really fruit...

What are you using?


V interesting post btw




This also brings up a very important (I believe) point that I need to expand on... I whole heartedly agree that grains are hard to get to fruit by themselves... that Tex bin was done on popcorn but it had about a handful of moist to wet verm mixed in with the popcorn when it was laid out.  so by no means was that a straight grain casing.  I think that def. helped with the pinning, not to mention those are tex and they pin faster than any strain I've worked with, so it's not exactly difficult to get them to pin.  But with those bulk bins, I think it's important to note how they are made.  The top of the substrate is obviously the most important part of the sub due to that being where the fruits come from, so with that in mind this is how the tubs are made... The first three inches or so (bottom part of the sub) of the sub are mixed in with the grain spawn.. then after that is in the bin and flattened out, I take the remaining two qts of spawn and lay those out evenly in a layer on top of the sub... then I cover that grain layer with about an inch or so of Hpoo/straw..  I have found that esp. rye grows absolutely horribly by itself.. the fruits get to a certain point and then just shit out. 

This happened here too


see how I laid grain out on top of the substrate?  This is how that tub ended up...


there were other factors along with that that made that bin crappy compared to the recent ones I've done like poor rh and bacterial infection, but I believe the rye is responsible for them starting to abort after a certain size.  I'm not sure if there is just a nute missing in the rye that the Hpoo/straw make up for or what, but that would be my guess.  I came to this conclusion because I did multiple strains and tubs with just straight rye (plus a verm rez but that in non nutritious and shouldn't be a factor in fruit development) heres a tub of PE on straight rye.. I was doing a casing comparison.. actually did two of these tubs at the same time this is just one of them... the comparisons were that each quadrant of colonized grain was cased differently... one was plain fine verm... one was fine verm with coir... one was plain course verm... one was course verm with coir to see what casing would work best... this is how it turned out...


I was like WTF??  I KNOW I didn't make the environment that much different than the popcorn and wbs I've used...

Then I did a chitwan/nepal grow with straight rye and this is what it turned out like...


So I said thats it... it's gotta be the rye by itself that is fucking my shit up, at least the rye that I have... So I decided to put the rye under the inch layer of Hpoo/straw and they grew big and beautiful and healthy looking as ever. lol 

So in conclusion, don't spread rye on the top of the bulk substrate, be sure to bury it under the bulk... I don't think that is an issue, however, with other grains such as wbs since I've not had a prob with any other grain besides rye.

The reason I think this also works besides the possible nute deficiency in rye is that when you put the bulk sub over the rye, it forces the myc to grow up through the bulk substrate... This produces ropey rhizos and is less likely to become matted, in effect the bulk sub actually becomes a pseudo casing layer... and if you expose the bin to light that whole time it is colonizing, by the time that that top layer is colonized, the substrate starts producing knots and pins from those ropey rhizos... and by late casing at this point, one is helping those knots and pins continue to form and thrive. 

I guess thats all pretty important information I should have added from the get go but I've got a lot of projects going and sometimes I'm a space cadet. 

This SA bin was done in the same fashion as the SA bin in that first post I did but the late casing was left off and you can see how that top inch bulk sub layer is acting like a pseudo casing and helping with the ropey rhizos... although it still isn't as prolific as that bin in the first post which is what I think the late casing helped do..



I think a lot of those knots on the bare spots on the top of that sub would have developed into pins had there been that extra thin late casing on there

the casing layer also helps with the pooling of water on the top of the substrate by absorbing some and preventing it also. :smile:

Quote:

Sillicybin said:
I am intrigued by this... I currently have to tubs of grain spawned to coir running side by side that I might try this on, one cased traditionally and one "late cased."

Are you pH buffering your casing material?  It seems to me that this would be key in preventing trich infection during subsequent flushes, otherwise the low pH of the uncolonized peat would be prime real estate for the green enemy.




I'm using coir/verm so I'm not using any buffer, but it's probably not a bad idea.

fahtster


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Edited by fahtster (12/03/07 01:16 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7710365 - 12/03/07 01:25 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That's what I like about you fahts, you're always breaking the rules, and then posting the results. Keep it up, and let us know how this progresses.
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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7710402 - 12/03/07 01:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Five shrooms for you man. :mushroom2: :thumbup:
I've always been scared of using casing layer becouse of my failures with it, so all of my grows were Rye spawned to Hpoo. Now I will certainly try to introduce this methods and findings of yours into my grows.

thanks and keep up the good work :smile:


Edited by strengthener (12/03/07 01:35 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7710405 - 12/03/07 01:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


Edited by drwatson (06/01/08 12:14 AM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: drwatson]
    #7710472 - 12/03/07 01:49 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

you definatly have some very well thought out grows there with no nonsense explanations.

theres tons of stuff that I have never really thought of and has kinda filled in some missing bits of information.

which is why a try and read any new threads that pop up, as therees bound to be great posts that lead to interesting discussions.

this has been the best one have followed in a while.

so much too learn!

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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7711257 - 12/03/07 04:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'm pretty into this idea. I have a small-ish (20 cm diameter?) tub of rye-to-coir that I'm going to a) put in FC and put on a sheet of crinkly wax paper, b) wait for knots, c) apply thin casing layer.

Because the only problem I could foresee with this is having the top layer of the tub dry out while waiting for knots. I don't like misting uncased substrate...b/c it always pools up in a spot or two. Will post results if I get anything amazing.

Thanks for pushing the envelope.


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Re: Late Casing [Re: MotorCityMadman]
    #7711383 - 12/03/07 05:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

im not to sure about this, but wouldn't this make the same result (for cakes) as putting the top resevoir on the cakes? someone on this forum has used the top reservoirs instead of the dunk and roll and has made some really big shrooms.

does anyone get what im talking about? It makes sense that it would work in the same way, no?


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7711630 - 12/03/07 06:19 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This is how I learned to case 4 years ago- I am glad the bandwagon is getting going.


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Re: Late Casing [Re: MotorCityMadman]
    #7711865 - 12/03/07 06:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

hey, thanks all  :bigjoint:

DrWatson-- funny you say that, I think I actually started using the wax paper, what was it RR, a few years ago now?  when HF and myself were using the greenhouses and doing grain casings... RR picked it up and I stopped using it.. which is cool (RR gave me the idea for the clone to grain jars so I guess it's even stephen hehehe)

it was a GH like this...


I was having troubles with the grain drying out so I laid parchment paper (which was a bad idea actually since parchment paper will absorb water so you need to use wax paper) over the grain trays with holes in the paper for ventilation to try and slow the drying of the grains.. worked well, but I fixed my gh setup so I didn't need the wax paper anymore.

I'm glad it caught on and didn't get forgotten, because I def. forgot about it. lol... maybe it'll make it's way full circle..  As long as it's well ventilated it would definitely shrink that environment down from the entirety of the bin to just above the substrate... it would keep dripping water off the sub from the lid as well.. good idea. :thumbup:

The first 7 pics in this thread are of about 12 inch high tubs.. so the fruits have about 8 inches of head room which is pretty good.. they usually don't tend to get much bigger than this..


which is about when they start touching the press and seal lid. :smile:

that PE bin that has all the sections in it is a mini dub tub.. the bottom piece is 6 inches high and the same size bin was just put on top of that up-side-down.  it didn't work out all that great.. the gap between where the two bins met was too big and the tub dried out quite a bit.

MCM- The rh in the bins does have to be high with the no casing for pins to develop, but I don't seem to have any problems with that in these bins... in fact water tends to pool and I have to suck it up paper towel  but the fruits don't seem to be aborting and most see it to maturation so I don't think that dryness is too much of a factor with the size of these bins.

With those HB bins I have micropore tape covering four holes on each of the long sides and two on each of the short sides (give or take a hole here and there lol) then theres a press and seal lid that I use and poke a pin hole about every 2 inches like so...


I just overlap the PNS and tape down the middle.. that is actually one of the HB bins on it's second flush.. I just get sooo damn lazy about the second flushes so normally there would be a pin hole every two inches and I wouldn't have used a knife tip lol  but really.. that second flush comes so damn fast, it would almost be a waste of my time to be too meticulous with these bins after the first flush. 

I just took pics of this bin because it's almost done.. heres a good example of the head room the fruits have in these bins.. you can also the holes covered with micropore tape.. love that stuff, super easy to apply and take off. :thumbup:


notice how the nipple juuuuuust goes over the top of the bin.  thats about picking time but I usually let em go a little longer because they look cool lol  heres the rest of the tub on the second flush... all the second flushes of these bins grow most of the fruits on the edges.. I'm wondering if this is because I just float the subs.. so next round of bins I'm going to try completely dunking two of them.. one I'll case right away after the dunk and one I'll wait until I see pins again (probably around three days after the dunk) then I'll add the casing then and see there is any noticeable difference in the two and if there is.. repeat with two more bins and see if the difference is again noticeable and there. :thumbup:  heres the bin 2nd flush..

 

those were this tub on it's first.. 


the room they are in looks like this...


the fans run 24/7.. the large light is a daylight floro that is just leaning up against the wall.. I like that it's easy to move around.  when the bins are colonizing I air the bins out every other day.  once the bins are pinning and are cased, I rotate the bins 180 degrees and air out once every day.  I've got the time to air it out so I don't neglect it at all..  I'm lazy, but not that lazy lol.  I did lose that substrate in the bin that had all those open caps in the first flush, but I think thats because I fucked up the dunking and didn't have very good ventilation while it sat in the water for 24 hours.. got hit with trich.. or it could that my fans are so dirty. lol  I'm pretty lax on my cleanliness, but that doesn't mean you should be.. I'll usually ditch the subs after the second flush.. the third is usually small of enough to be a waste of time when I need the space for new bins.  most make it to the second no problem. :smile:  to air out, I just fold back the PNS on one corner about three inches, then on the opposite side the bin I open about 4 inches of the PNS on the entire side... then just fan air in and the old stuff gets pushed out that opened corner.. so the lid never really comes totally off until the picking and thats usually right around the time that the PNS stop sticking well, but it works out since the sub's flush is over anyway.. time for a new PNS lid. :smile:

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Re: Late Casing [Re: Civ]
    #7711900 - 12/03/07 07:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

right, me too.. I think I remember seeing on some vendors site, ralph's maybe, that  his tubs' casings weren't colonized at all either and he had some really nice flushes.  this is definitely way too simple an idea to be like "I came up with this" lol I mean, how many people have forgotten to case and "late cased" (I'm just dubbing it something to make it stand out and 'cased late' just didn't seem right for some reason LOL)?  ya know?  I'm just trying to bring it to some attention and point out some reasons why it might work. :smile:

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Edited by fahtster (12/03/07 10:45 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: bryanbzl]
    #7712073 - 12/03/07 07:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

you mean like this...

   
   

   
   

 
   
   


wow, it looks pretty cool with them all together like that lol  those are different flushes.. the only cakes that were dunked and rolled were those four in that one pic of mazatapec with that little sign in it.  otherwise they were slowly hydrated by adding water to a thick verm casing over a period of like three to four days.. it's basically a slow dunk.. the roll is unneeded imo, but it's just opinion, peeps can do what they want.. I just hope they are pasteurizing the verm before they roll their clean cakes in dirty verm. :wink:  I do dunk for a second flush tho, I just omit the roll. :smile:  like I said in the first post.. this is just for the bulk subs for myself anyway.. because I do use a verm reservoir for the cakes, but as you can see, they aren't growing from the reservoir.. they are growing from where the cake and verm meet. :smile:

as for your question as to why this isn't applicable to cakes... I think it's because the 1/2 cup of water that you put into your cake recipe isn't enough to allow the cake to colonize without being gooey and throw off a pinset that is to it's top potential, so additional water is needed after the colonization has completed.  BUT with the bulk grows, you are adding the grain to substrate that is to field capacity which is more than enough to carry a tub thru the first flush and get great results. :thumbup:

fahtster

Edit: Another reason that I wanted to post these is to again show you what I was talking about with the idea of the single cake being in the big tub and why it probably wouldn't do better than a bin full of 24 cakes... they again create their own fruit environment... they all just love throwing off beautiful pinsets.. that and most of those are isolates. :wink:


Edited by fahtster (12/03/07 10:26 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7712140 - 12/03/07 07:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Cant wait to try it. Would late casing be the same as not casing but using waxpaper? Or would both be best.


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Re: Late Casing [Re: MotorCityMadman]
    #7712160 - 12/03/07 07:57 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

wow im going to have to try this on my next grow thanks for the tips!


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Nibin]
    #7712165 - 12/03/07 07:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
What are the substrates? I imagine this system will work well with poo or coir but not very well with plain grain, as uncased it doesn't really fruit...

What are you using?


V interesting post btw




sorry I missed this yo..  we were having a discussion over at 'topia about it and I thought it might be a good idea to just use the same principle, but just shrink it down to the small grain casing size like so...
Quote:


what if you laid out the grain and let it recolonize for a few days, then apply a thin layer of coir , about a 1/4 inch or so.. kinda of like I did with the bulk substrate  on top of the grain, then induce Pinning  conditions, light, higher O2, lower rh.. then after that knots and you see a pins, put the verm/coir  mix on top of that in another thin layer (1/4 inch or so) so that you end up with a 1/2 inch casing  on the grain, but while the coir  is at least some what colonized, the verm/coir  mix won't be.. just a smaller version than above and with the bulk changed out with coir . I guess it would be like patching the entire casing  once you see knots and a few pins. just an idea.  :smile:




I think one could probably use Hpoo/straw on the small grain casings to and do it that way or just do it like the old school "rez" effect where you sandwich the grain between (in that tek it's verm) the bulk sub, but coir is def. more accessible to people.  or do the coir "rez" effect and then late case, ya know?

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Edited by fahtster (12/03/07 11:16 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7712183 - 12/03/07 08:00 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not buying the lazy excuse. Have you seen how long your posts are? Holy crap, you're meticulous! It's good though...

I'd be willing to bet that you're right about your second flush fruits forming around the edges being a result of floating and not submerging the subs. I can also dig your reluctance to put too much effort into getting high yields from your later flushes, especially if space is at a premium or you're cycling tubs through quickly.

Good work man... Just thinking things out like you're doing here, can clear up tons of questions. Keep it coming!

Thanks!


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Re: Late Casing [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #7712200 - 12/03/07 08:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
Cant wait to try it. Would late casing be the same as not casing but using waxpaper? Or would both be best.




thats a good question, only one way to find out. :smile:

thanks everyone!

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Edited by fahtster (12/03/07 08:05 PM)


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7712244 - 12/03/07 08:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

With my next monotub Im going to try this. I think I will cover with wax paper and inducing fruiting until knots form, late case and see what happens. Great write up btw


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7713941 - 12/04/07 05:40 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
DrWatson-- funny you say that, I think I actually started using the wax paper, what was it RR, a few years ago now? when HF and myself were using the greenhouses and doing grain casings... RR picked it up and I stopped using it.. which is cool (RR gave me the idea for the clone to grain jars so I guess it's even stephen hehehe)
fahtster




I don’t understand? Are you saying that you originally came up with the wax paper method?

I only ask because its commonly believed that RR was the innovator and im just trying to clarify.


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Mojo]
    #7714156 - 12/04/07 09:19 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

well.. I just started using it and he kept using it, no big deal.  if he wouldn't have kept using it, it probably would have been forgotten.  :smile:

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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7714368 - 12/04/07 10:51 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I used a variation of this thought on my last grow..by accident really but anyhoo..
I got a shit load of pins, more than I ever got from casing but there were so many pins and 70% aborted and the fruits were small cause i think that they were all fighting for the nutes?

I tend to think that less pins that form is better cause I don't get as many aborts and the shrooms that do grow are bigger and healthier..

I like using casings and I put the tubs in the FC as soon as I see about ten or so spots colonized on the casing..

just my 2 cents


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7714415 - 12/04/07 11:07 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

So let me try to understand, when you have knots forming on your “bare” substrate, you throw the casing on and the substrate responds with additional knots and pins? Or is it just the existing ones that are growing through?

I really like the idea, while it’s possible to get beautiful flushes like yours through other methods; this one seems more fool proof.

Have you tried it with Pan Cyans? My guess is that it wouldn’t work since they like a casing layer prior to knot formation.


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Re: Late Casing [Re: fahtster]
    #7714622 - 12/04/07 12:11 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Verry good read man, and an excellent idea!!  I'm gonna give this a shot very soon! :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2":mushroom2:

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Re: Late Casing [Re: Mojo]
    #7714850 - 12/04/07 01:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I'm using coir/verm so I'm not using any buffer, but it's probably not a bad idea.




That, to me, sounds worse! Coir is not only usually fairly acidic, but it's more nutritious to mold and fungi than peat... is it a high ration of verm to coir?

To me, this kind of goes along with Roger's crumpled wax-paper "casing" - for both methods, it's all about the microclimate next to the pinning surface more than anything. The only real difference in the two is that while they pins are growing, the wax paper becomes lifted off the surface while a casing mix will stay put.

I wonder if a bunch of finely shredded wax paper might do just as well as any casing mix for this - the only difference being that it'd be extremely hard for any contaminant to colonize wax paper (if not impossible).


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Sillicybin]
    #7714913 - 12/04/07 01:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Do you still apply the normal ammount or casing material or less... or more?


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Re: Late Casing [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #7714948 - 12/04/07 01:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fahtster said
the fans run 24/7.. the large light is a daylight floro that is just leaning up against the wall.. I like that it's easy to move around.




New(and old) growers take note of the constantly moving air, and type of lighting. It takes a lot of factors to get a great pinset and harvest, and often those two are overlooked. The art of growing is a lot like a jigsaw puzzle. Once you get all the pieces fitted together, it will knock your socks off.
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Re: Late Casing [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7715039 - 12/04/07 01:52 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Now that I've gone through the whole cycle and know I can at least get some fruits from my labors posts like this enthrall me.

The worst part of my current fruiting grow was the pinset on some of the tupperwares, and I think trying stuff like this would be a great way to help me figure out how to get great results like you all.

:bow:


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Re: Late Casing [Re: Sillicybin]
    #7718146 - 12/05/07 02:31 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sillicybin said:
Quote:

I'm using coir/verm so I'm not using any buffer, but it's probably not a bad idea.




That, to me, sounds worse!  Coir is not only usually fairly acidic, but it's more nutritious to mold and fungi than peat... is it a high ration of verm to coir?

To me, this kind of goes along with Roger's crumpled wax-paper "casing" - for both methods, it's all about the microclimate next to the pinning surface more than anything.  The only real difference in the two is that while they pins are growing, the wax paper becomes lifted off the surface while a casing mix will stay put.

I wonder if a bunch of finely shredded wax paper might do just as well as any casing mix for this - the only difference being that it'd be extremely hard for any contaminant to colonize wax paper (if not impossible).




heh... I use 70/30 verm to coir that is pasteurized.  someone gave me the suggestion to use TUMS (calcium carbonate) in the mix to make it more basic.  The shredded wax paper sounds interesting. :smile:

Quote:

Have you tried it with Pan Cyans? My guess is that it wouldn’t work since they like a casing layer prior to knot formation.




I would agree that it's probably not a good idea with pans.

Quote:

Do you still apply the normal ammount or casing material or less... or more?




I put between a 1/4 and 1/2 inch :smile:

fahtster


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Re: The Method of Late Casing and Why it's a Good Idea. (moved) [Re: fahtster]
    #9171547 - 11/02/08 10:29 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This thread was moved from Mushroom Cultivation.

Reason:
-> archive


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation >> Mushroom Cultivation Archive >> Casing

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