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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12204946 -

I was battling with the same fucking thing this past weekend!! I was at one of those parties where everyone just drinks themselves to death until they're passing out or puking.  But all I wanted to do was :bigjoint: but  I didn't know anyone there, and thus, could not be open about that part of myself.  Instead I too got drunk and ended up passing out at someone else's house on a couch after talking to my sister-in-law and crying for three hours.  I hate alcohol :thumbdown:


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"It is by no means an irrational fancy that, in a future existence, we shall look upon what we think our present existence, as a dream."
- Edgar Allan Poe

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12205283 -

Read Totem and Taboo by Freud.

"Taboo means on the one hand sacred, consecrated, and on the other, uncanny, dangerous, forbidden."

He goes on to compare the avoidance of taboo with his studies of patients with obsessional neuroses.He proposes that in both instances the basic pschological issue is ambivalence - simultaneous of love and hate towards the same person or thing.

For example, the ancient taboo of never touching the tribal chief shows ambivalence. One wants to protect something "holy", while at the same time denying their will to power, ie their murderous impulse to take the throne.

If you buy into Freudian psychology I doubt you could ever get rid of taboo, seeing as to how nearly everyone has ambivalent feelings about nearly everything.

In conclusion, I think most taboo's originate out of the desire to control, but then are kept in place by basic tenets of human psychology.

Someone posted a thread in the pub about mankind having hope or some shit. I highly doubt that mankind in it's present evolved state will ever achieve much more than the destruction of all the Earth's resources. Just look at our psychology. Every trait lies along a spectrum. For every Ghandi, there's a Charlie Manson.

Sorry for getting off topic, but I felt the need to explain my views on mankind in light of our psychology.


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My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: dill705]
    #12205454 -

Not all taboos are irrational  - Incest for example can wreak havok on a society's genetics/physical health.

Which specificly were you thinking of?


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We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us — the labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: dill705]
    #12205469 -

dill705 said:
Read Totem and Taboo by Freud.

"Taboo means on the one hand sacred, consecrated, and on the other, uncanny, dangerous, forbidden."

He goes on to compare the avoidance of taboo with his studies of patients with obsessional neuroses.He proposes that in both instances the basic pschological issue is ambivalence - simultaneous of love and hate towards the same person or thing.

For example, the ancient taboo of never touching the tribal chief shows ambivalence. One wants to protect something "holy", while at the same time denying their will to power, ie their murderous impulse to take the throne.

If you buy into Freudian psychology I doubt you could ever get rid of taboo, seeing as to how nearly everyone has ambivalent feelings about nearly everything.

In conclusion, I think most taboo's originate out of the desire to control, but then are kept in place by basic tenets of human psychology.

Someone posted a thread in the pub about mankind having hope or some shit. I highly doubt that mankind in it's present evolved state will ever achieve much more than the destruction of all the Earth's resources. Just look at our psychology. Every trait lies along a spectrum. For every Ghandi, there's a Charlie Manson.

Sorry for getting off topic, but I felt the need to explain my views on mankind in light of our psychology.



I just got Totem and Taboo used off Amazon  - arrived last week, I am a little bummed b/c  was overly underlined and written in.

Though really I am much more on a Jungian.


--------------------
We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us — the labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Radar]
    #12208172 -

Radar said:
Not all taboos are irrational  - Incest for example can wreak havok on a society's genetics/physical health.

If a person who engages in incest uses protection, or has an abortion in the case of pregnancy, then little to no havoc will be wreaked on society's genetics/physical health.



Radar said:
Which specificly were you thinking of?

Basically all of them.

Poid said:
If people are aware that taboos are irrational, then why do they remain clung to them for dear life?


Also, taboos imply that we should give a fuck about what people do/think--as long as no harm is being done, what business of ours is anybody else's?



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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12209124 -

Although taboos often represent social control (and no, poid, most people do not realise how much they are being controlled), they also represent an individual's tendency to decide whether something is wrong/right, good/bad.
the fact that social taboos arise is because people generally don't think for themselves and just go with whatever their peers are doing. This allows social controllers to program people with views and overall thus results in large scale taboos.

But seriosuly, most taboos occur (eg - dont sleep with underage girls) because people want to avoid the consequences. If people could have sex with anyone then many adults would have sex with children and potentially could even raise children into sex robots that think about nothing else. without social taboos, there would be no way of avoiding this

social taboos occur because people have personal convictions and when they get together into societies, these convictions begin to synchronise


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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12209166 -

Noteworthy said:
Although taboos often represent social control...they also represent an individual's tendency to decide whether something is wrong/right, good/bad.

So why should we give a fuck about others' subjective opinions to the point that we force ourselves to copy them?



Noteworthy said:
(and no, poid, most people do not realise how much they are being controlled)

How do you know that?



Noteworthy said:
the fact that social taboos arise is because people generally don't think for themselves and just go with whatever their peers are doing. This allows social controllers to program people with views and overall thus results in large scale taboos.

Retards always ruin shit for everybody else. :picard:



Noteworthy said:
But seriosuly, most taboos occur (eg - dont sleep with underage girls) because people want to avoid the consequences. If people could have sex with anyone then many adults would have sex with children and potentially could even raise children into sex robots that think about nothing else. without social taboos, there would be no way of avoiding this

What about education? :shrug:

If education isn't about teaching people how to be independent and make smart choices in life, then what is it about? :justdontknow:



Noteworthy said:
social taboos occur because people have personal convictions and when they get together into societies, these convictions begin to synchronise

I think that is retarded--I couldn't give less of a shit about what people do/think, so long as it isn't harmful, and I can't believe that many people have the nerve to think that my personal business is also somehow theirs.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12210896 -

the point is: you would only know that it is harmful if you looked at the case and deemed it unharmful. Taboo things generally have real risks involved. There are lots of risks surrounding underage sex because young people can be very impressionable compared to older people and have no tools to protect themselves from sinister adults. Since a line gets drawn somewhere, in our culture it gets drawn around 16 years of age. That line is drawn as a measure to try to curb the possibility of harm to children. It is not done because someone believes that the line has some holy importance. that a 17 yo is definately better equipt for sexual encounters than a 16 yo.

Social concepts do not deal with individual specific circumstances, they deal with generalisations.

You raise an important issue - education. where do you think social stigmas come from? people are taught them, of course!


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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12210956 -

There are lots of risks surrounding underage sex because young people can be very impressionable compared to older people and have no tools to protect themselves from sinister adults.

Huh? What if the "underage" individual is the sexual aggressor? And what business of yours or anybody elses is this in those cases?



Since a line gets drawn somewhere, in our culture it gets drawn around 16 years of age.

Why does any line at all get drawn, considering that no two people are the same?



That line is drawn as a measure to try to curb the possibility of harm to children. It is not done because someone believes that the line has some holy importance. that a 17 yo is definately better equipt for sexual encounters than a 16 yo.

Teens aren't children (even though many modern teens are conditioned to be like children).

Also, this thread is about taboo behaviors which don't cause harm--rape often times does. 



Social concepts do not deal with individual specific circumstances, they deal with generalisations.

Why should these generalizations apply to my life?



You raise an important issue - education. where do you think social stigmas come from? people are taught them, of course!

That's what's absurd IMO--instead of teaching us to be independent, we're taught to be cogs in the machine before we become old enough to understand how it works. :nonono:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12211012 -

if the underage person is the agressor.. well then it is less taboo. in that case, society would point the finger at parents for raising such a 'bad' child. 'bad' because it is unusual and the fact that it is different means that society cannot trust it.

that is essentially the fundamental aversion in societies - to things that are different from the social norm. Things that are associated with unusual stuff become taboo and then the social norm shifts to avoid this taboo. and new taboos arise. the process occurs over hundreds of years and results in highly sensitive social structures


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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12211034 -

This just demonstrates how retarded human social behavior is, no wonder I feel like an alien sometimes.

:etbig:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12211036 -

You are :etjesus: and this is why you sometimes feel like a social outcast.  :satansmoking:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: deCypher]
    #12211041 -

I never realized that my ass was so big. :blush:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12211296 -

Poid said:
Radar said:
Not all taboos are irrational  - Incest for example can wreak havok on a society's genetics/physical health.

If a person who engages in incest uses protection, or has an abortion in the case of pregnancy, then little to no havoc will be wreaked on society's genetics/physical health.



Radar said:
Which specificly were you thinking of?

Basically all of them.

Poid said:
If people are aware that taboos are irrational, then why do they remain clung to them for dear life?


Also, taboos imply that we should give a fuck about what people do/think--as long as no harm is being done, what business of ours is anybody else's?




I was thinking about this last night in conjunction w/ evolutionary and memetic theory.  I would actually go one step further and say that ,if you dig in, ALL societal taboos (and totems) at one point served a very important role in the survival of the society.  Now, many of them lose their importance overtime, many become anachronistic. And many take on a weird life of their own.  But in forming a cohesive, long lasting society/cutltue that wil be self replicating they serve a definite role.

And sure you can use a condom to prevent genetic issues from incest  , there are many ways around it.  BUT birth control is a fairly recent invention. And its the roots of these taboos that we are looking at.  So if you were creating a society a pretty darn good rule would be "don't bang close relatives". If you were looking to rapidly and efficiently grow the society "dont sleep with memebers of the same sex" would be another one. If you were going to drag a group of pissed off people thru the desert with limited resources without them killing each other "don't fuck each others wives" would be a good one.  Social stratification to maintain order (castes etc) is another.  Anachronistic ?? Sure?  Irrrational ? No.


--------------------
We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us — the labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Radar]
    #12211339 -

But in forming a cohesive, long lasting society/cutltue that wil be self replicating they serve a definite role.

Why would future generations be any of my life's concern?



BUT birth control is a fairly recent invention. And its the roots of these taboos that we are looking at.

I'm just bothered by the fact that they still exist.



So if you were creating a society a pretty darn good rule would be "don't bang close relatives".

WTF, why?



If you were looking to rapidly and efficiently grow the society "dont sleep with memebers of the same sex" would be another one.

Holy shit, that is so fucking idiotic--what's to stop one who engages in sexual behavior with a member of the same sex from having children?


What is with this emphasis on society, as if it is or "should" be more important to an individual than him/herself?



If you were going to drag a group of pissed off people thru the desert with limited resources without them killing each other "don't fuck each others wives" would be a good one.

Or they could be mature enough to have open relationships. :shrug:



Social stratification to maintain order (castes etc) is another.

So taboos are there for the mere purpose to sustain their own existence, and to make sure that society is following its orders? You don't think that is irrational?


What type of order are you speaking of?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 03:30 AM)

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #12211414 -

Well if you believe in evolution, and maybe you don't  - not everyone does, you gotta allow that the organisms and societal constructs that survive in a very inhospitable world are the ones that are organized to reproduce more efficiently  -thats why when we think taboos we quite often think of the sexual ones. (though a prerquisite is also survival and health)

As an organism your goal is reproduction. Individual results may vary.  AND the reproduction does not have to be genetic - YOU (POID)  for instance  do a pretty good job on this site passing on your ideas  - replicating yourself, planting the seeds of your ideas.

And the reason you dont bang close relatives is because of the genetic abnormalities that arise if you end up reproducing. (And its just gross).

And unfortunately people arent "mature" (whatever that means) if they were we wouldnt have wars.

By order I meant just an efficient,  functional, replicating society - though certainly individual spiritual/emotional fullfillment often takes a back seat (can see that in the roots of Asian religions)


--------------------
We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us — the labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Radar]
    #12211575 -

Well if you believe in evolution, and maybe you don't  - not everyone does, you gotta allow that the organisms and societal constructs that survive in a very inhospitable world are the ones that are organized to reproduce more efficiently  -thats why when we think taboos we quite often think of the sexual ones. (though a prerquisite is also survival and health)

These days, we have contraceptives and abortions, so sexual activity doesn't necessarily = reproduction.



As an organism your goal is reproduction.

As an intelligent organism who can create and choose my own goals, reproduction is of very little importance to me.


And BTW, other creatures care mostly about their own lives/pleasure, and probably aren't aware that their sexual activity leads to pregnancy--most of them probably fuck for pleasure.



And the reason you dont bang close relatives is because of the genetic abnormalities that arise if you end up reproducing. (And its just gross).

The risk for a genetically defective child to be born from a cousin-couple is low.

How is it any more inherently gross than any other type of sex? And even if it was, what business of yours is it if somebody decides to fuck their cousin?


Again, taboos perpetuate the notion that other people's personal business is somehow our own. :nonono:



By order I meant just an efficient,  functional, replicating society...

How do arbitrary taboos help society to be efficient & functional?


What importance is it to any one individual that their society replicates?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 03:36 AM)

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12211713 -

Well, the fact remains we DO have taboos , irrational or not. And they are found in every single society in the history of our species.  And if you look they most comonly have a direct bearing on the health of the society - misguided or not.

It seems to me your point is actually "why do we still have these taboos "these days" because they don't makes sense in my current situation/world view?"  And to that I would say these taboos are rapidly changing = just look at Gay marriage  - in biblical times you get killed being gay now we are on cusp of legal marriage.

"Arbitrary taboos" leading to a more efficient and functional society can be seen by looking at the military.  Lots of bullshit rules keep guys willing to march off to their deaths. Same concept. Everyone on same page. Everyone gets along. Bring treats you have to share. Everyone gets a valentine.

"Any one individual"  (one data point) = none...but you gotta look at the group as a whole.


--------------------
We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us — the labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Radar]
    #12211773 -

And they are found in every single society in the history of our species.  And if you look they most comonly have a direct bearing on the health of the society - misguided or not.

All societies in the history of our species have perished.


You actually think taboos are healthy, or a sign of health? Did you ever ponder that maybe people's dependence on them is remarkably unhealthy, and neurotic?



It seems to me your point is actually "why do we still have these taboos "these days" because they don't makes sense in my current situation/world view?"  And to that I would say these taboos are rapidly changing = just look at Gay marriage  - in biblical times you get killed being gay now we are on cusp of legal marriage.

There should IMO be no taboos--I don't figure myself to be some sort of authority on people's behavior, and I would rather people who have the nerve to figure themselves to be an authority on my behavior not exist.



"Arbitrary taboos" leading to a more efficient and functional society can be seen by looking at the military.  Lots of bullshit rules keep guys willing to march off to their deaths. Same concept. Everyone on same page. Everyone gets along. Bring treats you have to share. Everyone gets a valentine.

Everyone pretends to get along, but in reality, most people constantly bicker with each other, whether it be subtly or explicitly. 

People secretly break taboos all the time.



but you gotta look at the group as a whole.

Why?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 03:40 AM)

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Re: Hold on, why the fuck do societal taboos exist? [Re: Poid]
    #12211787 -

But you gotta look at the group as a whole

Why?

Because thats the way science works.


--------------------
We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us — the labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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