Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
the evolution of shadow projection (long post !)
    #11801176 -

As I read Dawkins' The Selfish Gene some years ago I realized that biology and evolutionary theory can be helpful when trying to understand certain human behavior and cultural phenomena. For example, why do partners cheat on each other and why do people get jealous. It's so obvious that these behaviors don't result from the fact that our ancestors ate the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil and Fell into the world of sin from Eden. The tendencies must have existed long before spoken language and abstract thinking, that is to say human consciousness, evolved.

So instead, the eating of the forbidden fruit would represent the Fall from the bliss of ignorance, as humans started becoming more aware of their already-existing natural drives, some of which clearly shocked them enough to create the myth of the great Fall from Eden.

This lead to the birth of religions, whose original purpose was probably simply to rediscover the original state of ignorant/innocent bliss lost in the Fall. This gave rise to the development of the ego transcendence aspect of religion that is so central to true spirituality, and which some call enlightenment. Religion was thus also the original counter-cultural movement, since it resisted from the start the birth of the ego and of culture itself, preferring the non-dual experience that preceded human consciousness. But it also paradoxically created culture:

While some shamans remained true to the very real process of ego-transcendence, some began to simply blame certain objects for the Fall from Eden, implying that the destruction of these "enemies" or "negative forces" would precede the Return to Eden. This basic form of Shadow Projection has taken more forms throuhout history than anyone can count. Recently, even the truly spiritual aspect of spirituality, which is ego transcendence, has come under attack in materialistically oriented cultures where individualism is often mistaken for egoism. (Adam Smith's metaphor of the Invisible Hand might explain this attitude to some extent, since it seems to imply that egoism drives consumerism and therefore the economy, hence transcendental practise is contrary to good manners)


I'm rambling a bit so lets get to the point. I like both sociobiology and Jungian shadow projection psychology. At first they may seem to be in conflict, the other one being seemingly rational and the other one somewhat mythical, but I believe there is a synthesis, somewhere out there..

First biological evolution gave rise to the foundations of human behavior. Projection is a more recent, conscious process that has used these basic natural structures in constructing the complex, evolving human culture of problem and solution.

The problem with sociobiology is its emphasis on evolution and man purely as an animal. Governments, the great managers of human societies, rely on statistics to govern their subjects. Apparently they are going to improve the human condition by changing certain societal variables and by staring at pie charts as the numbers move in the desired direction, and the money and the power into their hands. Just turn the dial a bit, pass a new law, and see how the herds react. The dreadful vision of the right-wing elite who is both physically and mentally separated from the mindless hordes of lower class homo sapiense, the greasy engines of their well-being, is always lurking in the back of everyone's mind.

The problem with shadow projection, on the other hand, is that many psychologists take the theory too far. They apply it to everything, as if every undesirable mode of behavior were the result of shadow projection. I've read several articles where someone seems to explain that the only real problem in the world is shadow projection, as if biology didn't have anything to do with it - as if every human brute could be healed by guiding him toward greater self-awareness. In fact, I remember reading somewhere that psychotherapy has been shown statistically(!) to aggrevate certain undesirous tendencies in cetain "pahtological" groups of people. (Like you all probably know, shrooms aren't necessarily that good for everyone :nerd:)

What I'm looking for is some lucid author who has considered both the psychological shadow projection aspect and the biological aspect of human behavior. Both have their place in the world, but over-emphasis seems to be rife.

Ken Wilber is someone who combines western psychology with scientific knowledge of evolution as well as (eastern) wisdom of the transcendental in his theories, but I haven't decided about him yet. I'm currently looking into it.

I just needed to unload that off my chest. Anyone care to share thoughts?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: Tony]
    #11801316 -

Tony said:
As I read Dawkins' The Selfish Gene some years ago I realized that biology and evolutionary theory can be helpful when trying to understand certain human behavior and cultural phenomena. For example, why do partners cheat on each other and why do people get jealous. It's so obvious that these behaviors don't result from the fact that our ancestors ate the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil and Fell into the world of sin from Eden. The tendencies must have existed long before spoken language and abstract thinking, that is to say human consciousness, evolved.

So instead, the eating of the forbidden fruit would represent the Fall from the bliss of ignorance, as humans started becoming more aware of their already-existing natural drives, some of which clearly shocked them enough to create the myth of the great Fall from Eden.



I agree. :thumbup:

Unfortunately I have only a passing familiarity with Shadow Projection; do you have any links you'd recommend for reading on this topic?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: deCypher]
    #11801573 -

I'm afraid I don't have any links that I have experience with. I've been reading a book called Meeting the Shadow: the hidden power of the dark side of human nature. Ann Shulgin did some research on shadow integration with psychedelics. There's an audio behind that link of a talk she gave on the subject (MDMA and shadow integration), but I haven't listened to it yet. Also just found this video of hers on the net, presumably on the same subject.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: Tony]
    #11801796 -

Pretty interesting thoughts. I wish I had a better handle on it for discussion. Maybe something will come to me if a good discussion ensues.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: deCypher]
    #11806170 -

deCypher said:
Tony said:
As I read Dawkins' The Selfish Gene some years ago I realized that biology and evolutionary theory can be helpful when trying to understand certain human behavior and cultural phenomena. For example, why do partners cheat on each other and why do people get jealous. It's so obvious that these behaviors don't result from the fact that our ancestors ate the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil and Fell into the world of sin from Eden. The tendencies must have existed long before spoken language and abstract thinking, that is to say human consciousness, evolved.

So instead, the eating of the forbidden fruit would represent the Fall from the bliss of ignorance, as humans started becoming more aware of their already-existing natural drives, some of which clearly shocked them enough to create the myth of the great Fall from Eden.



I agree. :thumbup:




What's interesting about this interpretation of the myth is that it seems to imply that there was at some point a rather sudden rise in human consciousness. When you think about it, a gradual awakening would probably not have produced the feeling of falling from eden, since every new generation would have simply adapted to the new gradually arising insights of self-awareness, producing a smooth transition rather than a fall. So to me it seems there was a literal explosion of self-awareness at some point in human history.

This and the metaphor of the eating of the fruit kind of makes you susceptible to the idea that there was some psychoactive fruit or psilocybin mushroom that served as a physical catalyst for the sudden awakening. And since it is a forbidden fruit, it's possible that some had eaten it before and found its effects too much to handle, hence forbidden. So when some curious Eve finally decided to take a bite and awaken the community, it's not surprizing that some became angry at her and blamed her for their fall from the state of blissful ignorance. This might have been the original shadow projection.

When you project you are shielding your bliss of ignorance by trying to keep your unconscious tendencies unconscious when they are trying to surface. The target of the projection, the recipient of the negative aspect, is whatever is convenient, usually the thing that is causing the stir in the unconscious. This is how the Original Psychonaut became known as the Treacherous Eve. Still wonder why psychedelics are illegal and demonized?

We are always trying to become satisfied one way or the other, that is to join with Spirit and eternal bliss, yet in our ignorance we look for satisfaction in all the wrong places and blame all the wrong problems. Thus we are constantly re-creating the Fall in our own minds, and that is driving practically all human development, from culture to technology. So it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way the system works. But there seems to be different levels of shadow projection, from the basic "demons did it" to "satan did it" to "they did it" to "nature did it" to "I do it" and beyond. So it isn't completely hopeless. Humanity also constantly transcends its previous projections.

Edited by Tony (01/11/10 02:30 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: Tony]
    #11816271 -

Tony said:
What's interesting about this interpretation of the myth is that it seems to imply that there was at some point a rather sudden rise in human consciousness. When you think about it, a gradual awakening would probably not have produced the feeling of falling from eden, since every new generation would have simply adapted to the new gradually arising insights of self-awareness, producing a smooth transition rather than a fall. So to me it seems there was a literal explosion of self-awareness at some point in human history.

This and the metaphor of the eating of the fruit kind of makes you susceptible to the idea that there was some psychoactive fruit or psilocybin mushroom that served as a physical catalyst for the sudden awakening. And since it is a forbidden fruit, it's possible that some had eaten it before and found its effects too much to handle, hence forbidden. So when some curious Eve finally decided to take a bite and awaken the community, it's not surprizing that some became angry at her and blamed her for their fall from the state of blissful ignorance. This might have been the original shadow projection.



McKenna's stoned ape theory, aye?  I'll buy that self-awareness increased very rapidly at some point in human history but I don't know if this is necessarily attributable to the ingestion of psychedelics.  It seems more likely that there was a steady environmental pressure towards increased neural complexity and past a certain level of synaptic connectivity self-awareness is given an exponential kickstart.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: deCypher]
    #11816372 -

Good op man... I'll see about actually responding with any substance beyond just saying good op in a little... heh


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: deCypher]
    #11820067 -

deCypher said:
Tony said:
It seems more likely that there was a steady environmental pressure towards increased neural complexity and past a certain level of synaptic connectivity self-awareness is given an exponential kickstart.



According to the classical theory of (genetic) evolution, change is gradual and slow. It just seems very unlikely that the story of the Fall depicts an actual genetic change. If it did, it would be an extraordinary story of a truly epic moment. But when you read through some trip reports, you see that there are quite a few stories of psychedelically induced "awakenings" out there. The story of the Fall becomes a little less extraordinary and epic from this perspective, but by no means insignificant.

There are also some who interpret the metaphors, like the tree of life(sushumna) and the snake(kundalini) as evidence of a kundalini awakening. From wikipedia:

Quote:
In the theory of Kundalini Yoga, author William Irwin Thompson attributes the story of the fall to the time when human beings first understood that sex led to pregnancy, and understood what menstruation was. In "The time falling bodies take to light", Thompson theorizes that Eve's kundalini awakened, leading her to understand sexuality and human power and intelligence. In Sanskrit, "kundalini" means "curled up like a serpent"



I don't know how exactly Terence Mckenna explains the metaphor, something else I have yet to look into. One of my sins is I tend to look at things superficially, then move on. Hope I'm not giving the impression that I pretend to know about these things. I'm just bush-whacking my way through tangled ideas, hopefully toward greater understanding :jah:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: Tony]
    #11822939 -

Tony said:
I'm just bush-whacking my way through tangled ideas, hopefully toward greater understanding :jah:



Amen to that!  :pipesmoke:

Tony said:
deCypher said:
It seems more likely that there was a steady environmental pressure towards increased neural complexity and past a certain level of synaptic connectivity self-awareness is given an exponential kickstart.



According to the classical theory of (genetic) evolution, change is gradual and slow. It just seems very unlikely that the story of the Fall depicts an actual genetic change. If it did, it would be an extraordinary story of a truly epic moment. But when you read through some trip reports, you see that there are quite a few stories of psychedelically induced "awakenings" out there. The story of the Fall becomes a little less extraordinary and epic from this perspective, but by no means insignificant.



Well our current level of genetically programmed synaptic complexity has certainly evolved over time; I'm not saying there was an instantaneous mutation that single-handedly birthed self-awareness but I do think that very few mutations over a relatively short amount of time (evolutionarily speaking) were necessary to produce comparatively huge shifts in consciousness.

I don't know enough offhand about the Stoned Ape theory to be able to credibly dismiss it but I do believe McKenna's idea of the Apple being magic mushrooms has been shown to be unlikely because they don't grow in the area that humanity originated in.  Could be wrong, though.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: deCypher]
    #11826969 -

deCypher said:
I do believe McKenna's idea of the Apple being magic mushrooms has been shown to be unlikely because they don't grow in the area that humanity originated in.



Well, scientists have a pretty good idea of where humanity originated from, but at least I don't know when humanity actually achieved enough self-awareness and linguistic ability to be able to create mythical stories like the Fall of Man and pass them on to the next generation. Also there's some debate about the kind of environment and climate that ancient humans occupied(see aquatic ape on youtube), so who knows about them mushrooms.. But I admit the theory seems a bit far fetched anyway, something a cornered shroom-head might use to justify his own life-style.

deCypher said:
very few mutations over a relatively short amount of time (evolutionarily speaking) were necessary to produce comparatively huge shifts in consciousness



I think there's a lot of variation in human consciousness these days, yet we all share practically the same level of neural complexity and organization, the basic structure that is. So even with the same design it's possible to achieve hugely different results, or levels of awareness. For example, there are people who think they their lives are happy as they are(a kind of modest paradise), but give them some trippy stuff and that illusion will often shatter, at least for a moment. We don't even have to take the story of the Fall literally, it could be interpreted as a kind of an on-going cycle of complacency and a "fall" into greater awareness.

Maybe we'll never know the literal truth, but at least we can speculate, and then these speculations can become new metaphorical myths of their own, and then we can analyze them or whatever, and so on... It's all good :tripping:

Edited by Tony (01/14/10 06:21 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: Tony]
    #11827271 -

I'm jumping in here so maybe this has been covered. But just as a random thought the jungle to the Savannah via changing climactic conditions represents the garden and the cast out to me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the evolution of shadow projection (long post !) [Re: deCypher]
    #11827737 -

deCypher said:
Tony said:
What's interesting about this interpretation of the myth is that it seems to imply that there was at some point a rather sudden rise in human consciousness. When you think about it, a gradual awakening would probably not have produced the feeling of falling from eden, since every new generation would have simply adapted to the new gradually arising insights of self-awareness, producing a smooth transition rather than a fall. So to me it seems there was a literal explosion of self-awareness at some point in human history.

This and the metaphor of the eating of the fruit kind of makes you susceptible to the idea that there was some psychoactive fruit or psilocybin mushroom that served as a physical catalyst for the sudden awakening. And since it is a forbidden fruit, it's possible that some had eaten it before and found its effects too much to handle, hence forbidden. So when some curious Eve finally decided to take a bite and awaken the community, it's not surprizing that some became angry at her and blamed her for their fall from the state of blissful ignorance. This might have been the original shadow projection.



McKenna's stoned ape theory, aye?  I'll buy that self-awareness increased very rapidly at some point in human history but I don't know if this is necessarily attributable to the ingestion of psychedelics.  It seems more likely that there was a steady environmental pressure towards increased neural complexity and past a certain level of synaptic connectivity self-awareness is given an expoInential kickstart.



"It seems more likely that there was a steady environmental pressure towards increased neural complexity and past a certain level of synaptic connectivity self-awareness is given an exponential kickstart."

Absolutely. While it's possible that psilocin was a catalyst for certain selected behaviors, possibly the "mystical" feeling and tendencies of homo sapiens. I tend to agree with McKenna that religion in large part is due to the ritualized use of mushrooms and the subsequent falling away from their use.

Beer sucks.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* the Forbidden Fruit 2 shroominsmurf 1,245 6 06/29/02 03:43 PM
by hongomon
* The Forbidden Fruit
( 1 2 all )
RebelSteve33 4,385 26 06/27/02 10:40 PM
by psilyhunter
* I have begun my evolution.
( 1 2 all )
Ulysees 1,683 22 11/30/01 09:59 PM
by Ulysees
* Genome Evolution | First, a Bang Then, a Shuffle Anonymous 1,264 8 01/31/03 09:29 PM
by Joshua
* projecting thoughts (artificial entities) Monkah 1,744 11 11/12/02 04:59 PM
by FreakQlibrium
* No Evolution threads allowed.
( 1 2 all )
sir tripsalot 3,588 29 10/04/02 11:50 PM
by Anonymous
* The Idea of Evolution is BS
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
World Spirit 19,627 165 07/21/02 09:44 AM
by whiterastahippie
* evolution
( 1 2 all )
Droz 4,852 29 10/02/01 12:29 PM
by dimethoxy

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
655 topic views. 2 members, 48 guests and 21 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.023 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 14 queries.