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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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The Forbidden Fruit
    #699990 - 06/25/02 09:04 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Today one of my friends brought up an interesting idea to me, and I was wondering what all of you might have to say about it. We were actually watching an episode of The Simpsons in which they all fall asleep in church and have different biblical dreams.
One of the dreams dealt with Adam and Eve and the story of the Forbidden Fruit. My friend asked "Why would God forbid them to eat an apple?" He proceeded to explain that he thought the apple was a symbol for agriculture. He explained that if we had never discovered agriculture, we would all still be hunter gatherers. And thus, we would probably not have had the time to sit around and let our brains grow; thinking up new inventions and technology which ultimately hurt the Earth and all of God's other Creations.
I had never thought about the Forbidden Fruit in that way, and it made a lot of sense to me. God did not want us to discover agriculture because it ultimately led to our brains growing and the destruction of his other Creations. The "apple" is a symbol for us developing agriculture.
Does this make sense to you guys? Let me know what you think.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

Edited by RebelSteve33 (06/25/02 09:24 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #700015 - 06/25/02 09:22 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I always thought that the apple was a symbol for knowledge. But then again, it could be knowledge of agriculture

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #700148 - 06/25/02 10:12 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: World Spirit]
    #700197 - 06/25/02 10:31 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for your post, Enter! As I follow no formal religion, I do not have a bible; and your post was very enlightening.
I guess my friend was wrong, but it was an interesting idea.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #700207 - 06/25/02 10:35 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #700280 - 06/25/02 10:54 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I don't have a bible in front of me but in the last version I looked at I believe it was fruit from the tree of knowledge, not an apple. Which brings up a whole different topic on the attempts of religion to control the masses.

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: ]
    #700319 - 06/25/02 11:06 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

i really dig the Gnostic perspective of the Eden myth...

the Serpent (Enki of the Christs) is the good guy, trying to Liberate mankind with Self knowledge,
and YahWeh is the jealous demi-God who wants to control him.

or something like that...





~Genesis Of Eden~

Edited by soundmind (06/25/02 11:10 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: Middleman]
    #700383 - 06/25/02 11:28 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I tend to think of Lucifer (The Light Bearer) as a character similar to Prometheus who stole fire (a source of light) from the gods.

Edited by evolving (06/25/02 11:28 AM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: ]
    #700450 - 06/25/02 11:48 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Most misunderstand completely. The Forbidden Fruit was language. Before speech, mankind, like all animals, lived in the here and now. Animals have no philosophy as ideas cannot be exchanged, held up as lofty truths and then be fought over. Rather than live life, man learned to talk about living life and talk about how far others have strayed from some hypothetical ideals; yes - it was the beginning of judgement and separation. So began the expulsion from Eden...



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: Swami]
    #700465 - 06/25/02 11:55 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

why did'nt god say something smart, like children, remember to plant your seeds after your done, or else!, instead he was like don't eat the apple??

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: Swami]
    #700581 - 06/25/02 12:36 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Hmm... Interesting. If the Forbidden Fruit was language, then my friend's original idea would be somewhat correct. I think it's undeniable that language is the thing that has led us to become the "smart", sentient beings that we are today. Without language, none of our inventions would have been invented and none of our technology would have been technologized. Haha.
So, God did not want us to develop language b/c he did not want us to become what we are today and end up hurting the rest of his more perfect creations. I like this idea very much.

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

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Anonymous

Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: Swami]
    #700704 - 06/25/02 01:16 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I don't care what the forbidden fruit is or was. I'm hungry and I'm going to eat what I damn well please.

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OfflineLaCasta
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: World Spirit]
    #700852 - 06/25/02 02:08 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Here are some refrences to manna, something spoken of in the bible, which has eery similarities to shrooms.

Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will vain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or no (16:4). And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground (16: 14). And when the children of Israel saw if, they said one to another It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.

After the dew is an ideal time and condition for mushrooms to grow. Moses also made it clear that manna was acceptable to eat, and a blessing from god.

And the house of Israel called the name there of manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey(l6: 31). And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth. Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations: that they may see the bread where with I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt (16:32).

interestingly Moses commanded the Israelites to preserve manna so that future generations could benefit from it...............


--------------------

"Memories of high speeds when the cops crash, As I laugh pushin the gas while my glocks blast" -RIP Tupac

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: LaCasta]
    #701463 - 06/25/02 05:49 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

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Invisiblevkk_
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #701716 - 06/25/02 07:10 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

You should read the article: "Agriculture: Demon Engine of Civilization" from the book Apocalypse Culture. Hunter gatherers actually had more free time when they didn't have to tend to fields. They killed for enough meat, then sat around telling stories the rest of the time.


--------------------
I remember, the first time, I... smoked DMT.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: vkk_]
    #701961 - 06/25/02 09:38 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

They killed for enough meat, then sat around telling stories the rest of the time.

Paving the way for radio, television, and movies..


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: Swami]
    #702102 - 06/26/02 12:46 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

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Edited by enter (06/26/02 12:49 AM)

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #702114 - 06/26/02 01:14 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

in the genesis accounts, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is never identified (not an "apple"); in the quran, it is identified as wheat (!)...
the lord forbids the human to eat of the fruit of that tree, for "the day you eat from that, you are surely doomed to die."
when the serpent engages the woman in conversation about the tree, she states that they were instructed not to eat from it, or to touch it, upon pain of death... the serpent replies "of course you will not die, for god knows that, as soon as you eat it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like god himself, knowing both good and evil." for the taste of it, and for the knowledge, the woman ate the fruit and then gave some to her mate... and their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked, and stitched themselves clothing from fig leaves... when god was walking in the garden that evening, they heard him and hid themselves from him... and when god found out what they had done, he cursed the snake to crawl & be man's enemy, & cursed the woman to have difficult birth and to be subservient to the man, and cursed the man to have to work & sweat for his daily bread... & then god made clothes for them out of animal skins.. and in conversation with other celestial beings (?) voiced concern that the humans, having eaten from the tree or knowledge of good and evil ("the man has become like us"), might also take the fruit from the tree of life and live forever... & so god banished the humans from the garden to a place to the east of eden, with the gate protected by an angel and a whirling and flashing sword...
~
whew, heavy trip, man...
and that god fella sure seems to get worked up over small potatoes, dontcha think?
anyway, even within jewish/christian/muslim interpretations of this mythic telling of human beginnings, there is room for various interpretations... (and as for gnostic versions, whoa baby...)
pumishment for disobedience?
god(s?) jealously preserving the divine attributes of knowledge and immortality?
the struggle between pastoralists and agriculturalists (which also could be applied to the accepabilty of the offerings of cain (the farmer) and abel (the shepherd) & the abel's murder by cain...)?
the nudity taboo & the awareness of selfhood & the seperation of man from nature (& the big brain that makes humans even more inquisitive than their primate cousins, and which make human birthings so difficult and dangerous)?
~
as to sitting around & letting our brains grow due to the invention of agriculture... (& presumably the domestication of animals...), well, cro-magnon humans were around before agriculture was practiced, and their cranial capacity was larger than that of modern humans... (whether their brains were more convoluted than moderns, the fossil record cannot reveal...)
agriculture seems to have allowed the formation of large gatherings of humans into cities, which paved the way for castes, kings, priests, warfare, and written language... and here we are today, hehheh...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleJared
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: gnrm23]
    #702126 - 06/26/02 01:31 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Ok.. I'm just going to ramble a little bit here after reading this.

So the tree of knowldge is really the tree of language, the gateway up to the different parts which make up all knowledge which we posses. If we lost language within but a generation would -humanity- and -our knowledge- cease to exist.. so this idea of it is quite good. I like it.

Aww crap.. there was an idea i had to add, and i forgot it.. when i remember, I'll be back..

Ok, this is personal theory.. but I beleive that since animals do not have a sense of time they live in a sort of imortality.. They don't know how long they've been around, they don't know that they won't be around forever. If time doesn't exist for them, then how can it pass? 1 moment could be their entire life, or a millionth of a second. Language led humans to teaching of time, to the concept itself. We learned of death, and to pass on this information to other generations...

Or maybe, its talking about man being condemnd to death as a whole.. that this path of -knowledge- would ultimatly lead to our demise.. (nukes, over tilt of axis, bioengenering experiment gone horribly wrong?)

Another thing, (since im typing already) is that I was wondering
if the earth slowly, bit by bit was speeding up its rotation around the sun (being caused by gravitational pull from another star, large planet, anything) could be causing this shift in seasons Ive been observing... It seems as though winter is coming later and later, and summer is coming later and later.. as though there are a few too many days in the year causing this season skew... How would we know about this, really? If the other planets in our solar system were also affected by this gravity...

Sorry, here... I've rambled about stuff which I have no place rambling about.. just.. um.. yeah. bed now.

Edited by Jared (06/26/02 01:44 AM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: gnrm23]
    #702155 - 06/26/02 02:43 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

... and when god found out what they had done,

So much for an omniscient god...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: Swami]
    #702195 - 06/26/02 04:13 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

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InvisibleJared
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: World Spirit]
    #702205 - 06/26/02 04:21 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

>Enter slams a right cross into swami's jaw!

>>>>>>KABAM!<<<<<<

>How will the titan answer this blow?

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: World Spirit]
    #702310 - 06/26/02 05:40 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Swami, you love to tease. I love to return favors so here goes...
Umm, whom was I teasing?

Here's the defintion of "omniscient": total knowledge, all knowing

Notice the definition does not require a time period in which the knowledge is learned.

Huh? I know things after they happen. Big deal! Incomplete knowledge is far from TOTAL knowledge.

The only requirement is that all knowledge be known, not when.
I too, am omnisicent because I know everything, just not yet.

How can God forget? Because He chooses to.
You ask "how" (methodology) and reply with "because" (motivation).
Semantics aside, once again according to you, I am omniscient because I know everything, I just forgot most of it (like where in the hell did I leave my keys?).

He is in complete, total control of His identity, personality, and character.
Just like the Swam. Man, he must be one cool dude.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: Swami]
    #702344 - 06/26/02 05:52 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: World Spirit]
    #702362 - 06/26/02 06:01 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

How can I not be cool? I was created in the "Image and Likeness of God"?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: Swami]
    #702370 - 06/26/02 06:06 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

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Offlinepsilyhunter
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Re: The Forbidden Fruit [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #706869 - 06/27/02 10:40 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

A theory that resonates with me is that mushrooms are DIRECTLY responsible for our developement into homo sapiens. (Any devoted McKenna reader knows what I'm talking about) ... a feedback loop created in the minds of our ancestral primates causing us to evolve this way into rationalizing, sentient tool-making concept builders.

It strikes me that eating the fruit of the knowledge of good & evil is an excellent metaphor for developing conciousness and individual identity.

Genesis 3.22: (words in italics are MINE.)

In reply to:

Then the Lord God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; ( Who IS the almighty talking to here, anyway? )
and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.



If, as McKenna deduces, we stand at the cusp of our next evolution.... if fractal time is really about to be revealed... if indeed we stand at a moment when humankind will make the necessary evolutionary adjustments so that we percieve higher dimensions (take that linear notion away from time... See also Michio Kaku's great book "Hyperspace") isn't that second forbidden fruit an excellent metaphor for this UFO, or ingression into novelty or whatever you want to call it?


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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chart your own course... but only from here to there.

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