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Nature or nurture?
    #11502278 -

Is morality a thing of nature or of nurture?

Or in another way,

If a child was abandoned at birth in the jungle (a'la Mowgli) and grew to adulthood without contact with other humans, would that child have any sense of right and wrong?

I don't think that he would.  I think that morality is an interpretation of emotion learned exclusively from our contact with other humans.  I don't think that there is an instinct for morality.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11502428 -

i believe you're quite right..


--------------------
A man must choose his words very carefully.
For once something is said, it can never be unsaid.
Having said that, I have nothing more to say...

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: laidback4sho]
    #11502460 -

Quote:
I don't think that he would.  I think that morality is an interpretation of emotion learned exclusively from our contact with other humans.  I don't think that there is an instinct for morality.


Morality is best defined in terms of group dynamics. Put a Mowgli character in a social environment and behavior that preserves survival will emerge. Altruism is an evolutionary adaptation and pro-creative.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: Arden]
    #11502463 -

So....nurture by necessity of the definition of morality?


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11502655 -

youbreakyoubuy said:
Is morality a thing of nature or of nurture?

Or in another way,

If a child was abandoned at birth in the jungle (a'la Mowgli) and grew to adulthood without contact with other humans, would that child have any sense of right and wrong?

I don't think that he would.  I think that morality is an interpretation of emotion learned exclusively from our contact with other humans.  I don't think that there is an instinct for morality.


Of course he would have a sense of right and wrong, only that it will be according to his own experiences, based on his jungle life. If he wouldn't develop it, he wouldn't be able to survive because he would just stand there without taking action as a result of what happens around him.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11503255 -

Right being what is expedient for survival and wrong being what threatens it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11503513 -

MushroomTrip said:
Of course he would have a sense of right and wrong, only that it will be according to his own experiences, based on his jungle life. If he wouldn't develop it, he wouldn't be able to survive because he would just stand there without taking action as a result of what happens around him.
So you think that his personal set of values is independent of the 'group dynamic' and evolves from his interaction with nature? 

I think that your idea and my idea of morality is different.  How would you define it?  I would say that morality is an interaction of our thoughts with our emotions.  We have an emotion, then, in order to interpret it, we bring in thought to qualify it based on past experiences.  Over time we would form a code of conduct that agrees with our past reactions to various emotions.


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11504487 -

nature is nurtured
and nurture is natured


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: Cherk]
    #11504504 -

So, alternatively, one might say that nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy?


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11504602 -

yeah I guess



nature and nurture debate over intellectual evolution is interesting
but
nature and nurture always seems to boil down to
people discussing the framework of
odds and chance, fate and destiny

i don't think the nature/nurture debate will do anything but get people thinking in the direction they should have been all a long

inevitability and human nature

the debate nature/nurture is there because it is the most material form of the conceptualization of thinking in that direction (inevitability/human nature) because it is how we have become familiar
with thinking about ourselves

people try to make precise, intricate theories about things that should be addressed with broad accuracy

but in the end the debate will just confuse most people because they assume the debate has substantial philosophical ground in and of itself, which I don't think it does

it is just a place where we have cornered ourselves


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: Cherk]
    #11504640 -

Nurture is a single part of Nature. There might be qualities that some entities may not have, like nurture, but that doesn't mean that they don't go hand in hand.


--------------------

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: ImaginingEmotions]
    #11504844 -

yes. nature is everything.


--------------------
[quote]Oweyervishice said:
[quote]Icelander said:
What is at the bottom of it?[/quote]

Death anxiety? :flirt:[/quote]

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: nootropic]
    #11505275 -

i dont think the right wrong dichotomy is sufficient. i think it should be more like advantageous or disadventageous, if he developed relationships with other animals, he would have a sense of good or bad if he killed one of them to sustain himself. its completely rlative to the environment imo so i would go with nurture. If the boy was put in a spaceship and the necessities for life were provided he would have no sense of advantageous or disadventageous other than what pertains to himself, suicide, self harm, eating/drinking, or not eating/drinking. It is the relationship between stimulus and response that creates a feeling of good or bad/right or wrong. to say that there is no right or wrong would be wrong imo because society does exist and so conduct relative to it is either advantageous or disadvantageous. to say there is no inherent right or wrong might be true tho.


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: zoomfan]
    #11505297 -

wow wrong is a weird word haha


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: Icelander]
    #11505586 -

Icelander said:
Right being what is expedient for survival and wrong being what threatens it?


Mostly yes, even though people judge things as good or bad because of other reasons than survival too. I think it has more to do with what creates pleasure or displeasure, and some folks can even find pleasure in a slow, painful death. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11505675 -

youbreakyoubuy said:
So you think that his personal set of values is independent of the 'group dynamic' and evolves from his interaction with nature? 



I didn't say it doesn't have to do with the group dynamic; it has to do with one's genetic predisposition and with one's environment.
In the jungle case, I think it has much more to do with nature, because there wouldn't be any other people out there, and he would have to adapt to the laws of nature, unless something more out of the common happens to him, such as him being adopted by some monkeys, and then I presume that he would have to adapt to their social life-style and morals.

Quote:
I think that your idea and my idea of morality is different.  How would you define it?  I would say that morality is an interaction of our thoughts with our emotions.  We have an emotion, then, in order to interpret it, we bring in thought to qualify it based on past experiences.  Over time we would form a code of conduct that agrees with our past reactions to various emotions.


I mostly agree with this definition, on the note that people can become aware of their thought processes and how these stir different kind of emotions that generate other thoughts and so on. Then one's ethics start to make more sense and they stop being just dumb, automated reflexes.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11505857 -

youbreakyoubuy said:
Is morality a thing of nature or of nurture?

It is nurture. 100%.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: Poid]
    #11505905 -

Any elaboration you'd like to add to that?


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11505906 -

If there is no instinct for morality, where do animals get their morality from?

For me morality is logic. Cause and effect. People who don't have morals are simply unable to see far enough how their actions are creating a chain and an avalanche of causes and effects. No morality equals blindness.

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Re: Nature or nurture? [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #11509539 -

youbreakyoubuy said:
Any elaboration you'd like to add to that?


I've never heard of the "morality gene". :shrug:


Obviously, peoples' morality is largely influenced by the culture that they were born into; this means that a person's morality is "nurtured" into his/her psyche.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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