Home | Community | Message Board


Everything Mushrooms
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineRedHarvest
Stranger
Registered: 10/03/01
Posts: 8
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
The nature of.. nature.
    #412019 - 10/03/01 02:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

A thought that cracks me up from time to time is that we see our selves as the highest level of creation in our immediate vicinity (our solar system, basically). Yet as easily and as indiscriminately as we destroy insects does nature destroy us. I can't help but think that nature is to humans as humans are to ants. Nature (whatever entity or entities comprise it--a god, an alien, a cow--it doesn't matter) sees us as dispensible and dim and perhaps even delights in our destruction. I'll be the first to admit that I've kicked over an anthill just for shits and giggles. Maybe nature one day decided to send a tornado down to Maryland just to see what kind of reaction we'd give.

We react especially violently towards parasites. Sucking our blood is a death wish for a mosquito. If we keep taking more than is given to us, we're going to get swatted. Badly.

Ants are unaware of our self-realization. That is to say, ants cannot distinguish between us and, say, a rock. If we provoke them, we are attacked. If a rock provoked them, it would be attacked to. They cannot comprehend that we are 'concious.' Just in that way can we not comprehend the conciousness of nature. It is beyond our scope. We are simple, robotic, compared to nature, just as ants are simple and robotic compared to us.

The implications of this theory have no rooting in spirituality. Spirituality is a concept that comes from our creativity, a fabricated idea that we cling to so as to explain what science can not yet explain or may never explain. The existence of forces beyond our comprehension does not mean that God exists and that Jesus walked on water. It merely means that we are not the center of creation. And anybody who thinks we are has another thing coming. We are about THIS big (I'm pinching my fingers together right now real tight-like). We are an atom in the speck of dust on a flea's ass that's attatched to the elephant that is Creation. We're not going to the '4th' dimension. The 4th dimension, spatially, exists in the space between particles (if it even does 'exist'). It's that small. Our brains our not designed to exist on that leve, eitherl. We are incapable of visualizing objects in the 4th dimension. The equivalent of a sphere in the 4th dimension (its name eludes me currently) is impossible to see in your mind. It's like asking a 2-dimensional figure to comprehend a sphere. It can't be done.

Shroomism I've read alot of your ideas and I think that they do make alot of sense, but I don't subscribe to them. I'd like to see somebody who hasn't dosed on high levels of hallucinogens come to the same 'spiritual' conclusions as you. There is no doubt in my mind that psychadelics can FUCK YOU UP big time, myself and yourself included. The difference is that the area of my mind that's still rational hasn't been torn to shreds yet. Sorry if I'm coming off a bit raw but reading your stuff sometimes late at night really fucks with my head.. it's not good. I have no doubt, though, that you're one of the most kind people out there, if you really practice what you preach.

PEACE, J

"My definition of a free society is one in which it's safe to be unpopular." -- Adlai E. Stevenson

Edited by RedHarvest on 10/03/01 01:32 AM.



--------------------
"My definition of a free society is one in which it's safe to be unpopular." -- Adlai E. Stevenson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: RedHarvest]
    #412071 - 10/03/01 03:57 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>Ants are unaware of our self-realization. That is to say, ants cannot distinguish between us and, say, a rock. If we provoke them, we are attacked. If a rock provoked them, it would be attacked to. They cannot comprehend that we are 'concious.' Just in that way can we not comprehend the conciousness of nature. It is beyond our scope. We are simple, robotic, compared to nature, just as ants are simple and robotic compared to us.


thought that needed saying again, that's the good stuff that is. everyone seems to think humans are so damn great, and sure i think we're cool but I look around and i see a bunch of apes wearing clothes and man sometimes it really cracks me up...apes in funny clothes and silly hats looking at food in shops scratching their heads and slyly watching the sexy young female apes...

I'm damn proud to be an ape.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMeltingPenguin
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2,138
Loc: new england
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Traveller]
    #412075 - 10/03/01 04:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How the fuck do you know what ants are thinking. FOr all you know they could be way smarter than us, and prefer to live the way they do, as opposed to the way we do!

You think your sooo smart, all talking about ants, like your a damn ant psycologist.

Satan is Irish


--------------------
Growing anything is good for the soul


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: MeltingPenguin]
    #412081 - 10/03/01 04:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

quiet you!



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMeltingPenguin
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2,138
Loc: new england
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Traveller]
    #412083 - 10/03/01 04:18 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

lol,
oh sorry...its just that I,...um i really like ants, that's all.

Shrooms are not addictive. The shroomery, however......


--------------------
Growing anything is good for the soul


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: RedHarvest]
    #412084 - 10/03/01 04:20 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think nature is an entity, or conscious -- I always figured we were natures' conscience -- so I have a hard time accepting the malevolence with which you attribute it...a tornado in Maryland is a random thing, an unfortunate out-cropping of the same processes that make life possible for us in the first place...

As for the 4th dimension...that would be "time", so I suppose we visualise things four-dimensionally whenever we think of our pasts or futures...I'd comment on whatever it is that Shroomism has been saying on the subject, but I stopped reading his posts looong ago ;) ...



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Pynchon]
    #412194 - 10/03/01 09:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I remember some poem by WB Yeats where the narrator asks a tiger what is god and of course the tiger says "god is a mighty tiger, so big that this entire world is simply the tip of one of his many hairs" and then further into the forest meets an eagle who says "god is the mightiest of birds, soaring through infinity creating and destroying worlds with every flap of his great wings"....etc...actually i just made up all of those words but that was the general feel of the poem anyway. you say we are the consciousness of nature, well we are conscious and so are the birds and the cats and the trees so sure we ALL are the consciousness of nature, but who's to say the earth isn't conscious? or the sun? or the black holes?

my friend asked me a while back if I believed in aliens. i thought for a sec and said yes, but that i have no idea what kind...that i didn't think they necessarily had bodies...so maybe the sun has awareness, maybe the earth has awareness, but awareness or not the sun has LOTS of energy...and isn't energy the juice, isn't energy what it's all about? whether or not there are little men with brains I don't know but I know there are plenty of gigantic entities out there with loads of energy that live and give life for looooooooooong periods of time....

I worship the earth, the sun and the moon, the sky, fire and water, the ocean, the wind.....are any of these things aware I do not know but the first two are certainly worthy of being called "gods" in my opinion.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinegribochek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: RedHarvest]
    #412231 - 10/03/01 10:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> The implications of this theory have no rooting in spirituality.

On the contrary, my friend. True spirituality comes EXACTLY from this kind of realization. True spirituality is not about humans being the top of creation. It is about ALL of creation, us being part of it, ants being part of it, computer being part of it, blah, blah, blah.

And, yes, I have seen people come up with wild stuff without psychedelics. And I have seen people find true meaning of things through psychedelics. What fucks you up and what fixes you up has nothing to with chemistry, I'm afraid.


----
You punish God, not the other way around.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSenor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/12/99
Posts: 21,330
Loc: Wexico
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Traveller]
    #412448 - 10/03/01 02:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ants are more like us than pigeons. The theory sucks. It offers no evidence of a conscious nature.

the complexity of DNA could definately be used as evidence. How could something so complex in nature exist as a mere accident?

Why is man so capable of overcoming so much of natural law? Why do we get to build houses and utilize energy to suit our comfort, while the chipmunk is at the mercy of nature? To what end, goddamnit????

I think that while Christianity is a mutated and corrupt structure of belief, it does offer some explanation as to our existance.

Look at God as a force, and not as an old man in the sky trying to justify his dispiciple creation.

We cannot question the will of what we do not understand. Maybe the force that we call Nature did indeed take on a human form to better understand what it is to exist in the physical world and then on the cross discovered that no man can escape the will.

I don't know. My brain is butter.



--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedimethoxy
Stranger
Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 10
Loc: uk
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #412470 - 10/03/01 02:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Anyone read the psilocybin solution (look on erowid), it suggests that the universe is like a computer and we are self-modifying computer programs, and the goal of this cosmic computation is unknowable to us.

I do not belive that awareness is a good description of life. Babies are alive but they are only aware to the fact that "I need food" and "woops, I have done a shit" Surly an entity like the Sun or indeed the Earth has no material needs to tend to and so would not be aware, but this does not instantly imply that they are not alive.

It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for someone you are not.


--------------------
It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for someone you are not.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIshmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #412495 - 10/03/01 03:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The Chipmunk, the Squirrel, The Ant...they are all at the mercy of nature, but they are also her dependants. She provides for them as much as she doesn't. Civilized people have this idea that the world is this really desolate place where every living thing has to scrounge and fight tooth and nail for every kernal of food, every crumb. But it isn't. The world is neither manevolent or benevolent. Both ring of control, of dominance... and the world isn't about control or dominance. Most species have a quite easy time of surviving (a much easier time than our civilization does) within the natural 24 hour buffet of nature.

What we're doing is projecting our own cultural mythology /onto/ what we percieve as the body and essence of that venerable thing we call Nature and Life. It's as bad as saying God is some man resting on a nimbus of clouds with a long white beard dangling to his knees.

Attributing a consciousness to the earth is known as the Gaia Hypothesis. It states that when considered as a total whole rather than a loose grouping of individuated parts, the earth acts like a living thing. It self-regulates, it reacts to outside conditions and changes to compensate for them. It is a dynamic energetic system far from equilibrium. All of evolution is the process of life blossoming outwards to promote /this state/. This point where the world becomes capable of self-regulation, because in /this state/ the earth system (which was originally stated as being far from equilibrium) can move towards higher levels of it equilibrium (and thus promote new orders of refined complexity). Life is a strange attractor in the sense of Chaos theroy, and the processes of life's evolution on earth are a series of bifurcation points (points of evolutionary change within an energetic system where spontaneous order arises).

We can't say that the earth is like us to Ants because while the earth may be conscious, consciousness does not denote intelligence NOR does it denote an ego to impose will. You crush an anthill for a laugh, but you can't attribute that same specialized dementia onto a Tornado, Hurricane or Earth Quake. Houses get destroyed by Tornados because Humans are stupid enough to put houses where Tornados are likely to occur. People die in floods because people are arrogant enough to believe that we can 'tame' nature or that Nature can be destroyed and subdued into passivity. All we do by destroying nature is destroy the stasis of the equilibrium promoted by evolution and existance in general. By placing the entire system of which we are an integrated part into a state beyond equilibrium, we cause it to become more chaotic. More floods, more hurricanes, more earthquakes...ect ect. Nature won't destroy people because it's /tired of us fucking with it/. People will destroy /themselves/ (and set back evolution and the process of equilibrium on the planet a few million years) by destroying life in excess and /ignorance/. If nature has the capacity to think, it wouldn't be angry with us, it would feel sorry for itself (and us included). You can't claim that it is ludicrous for an animal to concieve of god in its own image and then anthropomorphize the 'mind of nature'. If nature can think, she doesn't think of us as a disease or contagion the way we think of disease, viruses and bacteria. She would probably just concieve of herself as ill. It will be us who wipes ourselves out by distorting equilibrium so far that it can no longer sustain /us/. Again, out of ignorance. You can take the perspective that the 'disasters' that will likely befall man are all the work of God or Nature seeking retribution. God or nature hasn't forsaken us, we've just been living in a manner which goes against the processes of evolution (the processes of developing equilibrium). If anyone has forsaken us, it is ourselves. We are intelligent enough (I believe) to recognize the problems with our way of life and the ramifications that it has upon ALL LIFE and not just our own.

Just remember, Hiding your head in the sand (or the clouds for that matter) is no defense against the threat which looms on the horizon.

If it were reduced to a simple ultimatum such as 'Change or Perish' would it become any clearer? Probably not. We're too far atrophied - we think it easier just to keep walking single-file towards the edge fo the cliff that the road we're on leads us. "I've been following this path my whole life, I don't know how to walk somewhere else."

Ish




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Ishmael]
    #412564 - 10/03/01 04:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

That was some good shit, Ishmael.

Does the Gaia Hypothesis attribute consciousness to the earth? It certainly credits it with a "directional" ability -- self organization? -- but I don't think Lovelock and co. ever came out and said "earth is conscious"...

(stands back and watches people fight over definition of "consciousness"...)

Ever read Paul Davies "The Cosmic Blueprint"?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRedHarvest
Stranger
Registered: 10/03/01
Posts: 8
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Pynchon]
    #412695 - 10/03/01 06:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The gaia hypothesis (which I'm very familiar with, btw) has nothing to do with what I was saying. I just want to clear that up. The hypothesis merely explains the behavior of the earth (or, in the case of my argument, nature); we would be daft to assume that we can't simplify the behavior of humans to a similar hypothesis, as every action of ours is merely part of an almost impossibly-complex chain reaction that we are unable to comprehend yet. What we believe is 'free will' is merely our logic minds assessing different choices; however, the choice we do finally make is the choice that we HAD to make.

I read an interesting book a long time ago when I wasn't yet able to grasp all the concepts, but it was on super string theory I believe and it said that at every junction in time or space, an infinite number of universes are spawned to deal with every infinite possibility. How does this relate? Well, if this is true, then free will does not exist in the universe that we are currently in, nor does it exist in any of those universes. Everything we do to stay in the universe that we are currently in MUST be done in order to stay in this universe, or else we wouldn't be US, but merely an alter-ego in a different universe. I'm probably butchering this theory but that's the best I can do right now.

Back to my original point: the gaia hypothesis does not preclude in any way the existence of a higher level of conciousness. That's like saying humans aren't concious because we can predict their behavior (not individually of course, but the ability to predict the behavior of humans on a large scale is the reason why insurance companies make so much money). I wish I could respond to all the criticism of this post but I'm one against many.. my brain just can't do it. I'm not trying to feed this to you as the truth, just as a possibility or a feeling that I get sometimes. Peace

J

"My definition of a free society is one in which it's safe to be unpopular." -- Adlai E. Stevenson


--------------------
"My definition of a free society is one in which it's safe to be unpopular." -- Adlai E. Stevenson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #412842 - 10/03/01 09:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

man is not capable of overcoming ANY natural law.

we build houses, so do birds, ants (who build cities), beavers - i bet you couldn't build yourself as good a house as a beaver can...

I don't think the "how could all this amazing stuff just be an accident?" question leads anywhere...it's like asking "why am I here?"

but ok, when you say "look at God as a force" i think i can happily deal with that idea...but i'd rather just think about forces and energy than use that big G word with all the crap that goes with it.

I think that you and I, like the chipmunk, are completely at the mercy of nature, we just like hiding in our little houses pretending it ain't so....in a recent typhoon here in tokyo only 6 people were killed: one fool got up on his roof to try to fix his TV reception in the middle of a fucking typhoon, guess cause he thought he wasn't at the mercy of nature, being a higher being and all....I think a chipmunk would probably have the sense to HIDE.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: dimethoxy]
    #412844 - 10/03/01 09:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

<Babies are alive but they are only aware to the fact that "I need food" and "woops, I have done a shit">

are you kidding???? babies must be in the most heightened state of awareness possible for an ordinary human being (ie without serious training)!!!!! babies are taking in and processing so much information while us adults are too busy talking to ourselves inside our heads to notice what's going on....



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinejonniedumbass
Stranger
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 19
Last seen: 15 years, 30 days
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Pynchon]
    #412999 - 10/03/01 11:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think there is order in nature- the universal (earth is a part of this) shift towards a "common good". The common good is kinda subjective- but if the ideal of good of one species or aspect is shared with the ideal of good of another, a way of mutual sustainance usually arises (eg some plants are attractive to other beneficial organisms with the aid of scents or foodstuffs/ ants that defend a tree that is their life giving habitat).
Just like your liver can detoxify something that is bad for your heart or something. The body works in a myriad of ways using things like hormones and enzymes and even bacteria etc. You don't even have to be "aware" in the egotistical sense for these processes to continue- it is just "the way".
The (constantly evolving) connections in "nature" are simularly infinite and basically function to maintain or assist the (eventually the greater) good and to change/ avoid or destroy the bad. The outcome is often mind blowingly, brilliantly "perfect" as to suggest a pre determined order to some people.
However, I think if we managed to survive our own pollution for much longer while also surviving the gentle wake up calls that I think we are getting, then parts of nature may evolve more new and direct ways to destroy us (if plagues don't get us then hordes of angry koala assassins might).
IMO the overall "personality" of our earth is gentle, nurturing and forgiving. If you step over the flexible line though.....



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAdom
Totally Nude
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 10,875
Loc: Way Up North
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Traveller]
    #413224 - 10/04/01 03:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you, saved me the trouble.




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Traveller]
    #413268 - 10/04/01 04:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

>><Babies are alive but they are only aware to the fact that "I need food" and "woops, I have done a shit">

>are you kidding???? babies must be in the most heightened state of awareness possible for an ordinary human being (ie without serious training)!!!!! babies are taking in and processing so much information while us adults are too busy talking to ourselves inside our heads to notice what's going on....

If you're lost are you aware of where you are? Babies are absolutely lost, I mean it's not until they're 2nd or 3rd week(I think... might be longer) out that they even develop the ability to see with any detail. While I won't say that food and dirty diapers are the only two things they're aware of, I certainly wouldn't consider them more aware than adults(perhaps children are, but not babies). I mean what do you remember from your birth or the first couple years of your life to prove this vast awareness that you claim? Admitedly the vast majority of your memory is thought to be related to language and since babies don't comprehend language this might be why you don't remember, but if they can't see properly what other things are they not fully functioning that give awareness?

Edited by MokshaMan on 10/04/01 03:27 AM.



--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: MokshaMan]
    #413273 - 10/04/01 04:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

did anyone else see that documentary series a while back called "the human body"? anyway on one of the episodes they showed experiments with babies (dadadadum!!), one where they submerged maybe a month old (tiny) baby in water (ideal, presumably body temperature) and filmed it as it swam around with perfectly coordinated movements, frog style, eyes wide open...drop a little ball in the water and the baby goes swimming after it...completely relaxed.

babies are lost because they get forced out of nine months of comfort and familiarity into a completely new world where they can't see or move about: imagine if it happened to you?

and yes I think if i'm lost i'm completely aware of where I am, just not where that fits in relation to everything else. so a baby is aware of everything but has no experiences to relate to, and this is why i think they are sort of super-aware, since now that i've seen a million pens i don't really LOOK at the pens, or i've seen a million trees so when i walk past one my mind says "tree" so i don't feel the need to examine it and therefore don't notice the details...

we're not disagreeing here though I don't think, we're just going by different definitions of "awareness".



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: The nature of.. nature. [Re: Traveller]
    #413279 - 10/04/01 04:56 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just another question to throw up there, if you're not aware that you're alive is that awareness? Not specific to you Traveller, just something I figured I'd throw up there. And I did admit that it was only for a short time that babies had no sense of detail or definition in their sight.

BTW how deep was the water that the babies were submerged in? More of my personal curiousity.



--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop for: Scales

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* How do you view nature so blissfully?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
bandaid 4,587 89 08/19/04 08:22 AM
by Zoso_UK
* Does technology enhance or destroy nature? jasonpwnd 1,338 19 01/25/08 02:25 PM
by NiamhNyx
* Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Silversoul 4,548 89 03/05/06 02:28 PM
by BlueCoyote
* The Value of Nature
( 1 2 all )
jono 1,692 21 06/05/02 03:15 AM
by deepr
* Natural vs. Unnatural
( 1 2 all )
cb9fl
2,291 31 05/31/05 04:45 AM
by eMotionALLmotion
* nature of nature
( 1 2 all )
Bridgeburner 2,246 29 07/07/08 03:06 PM
by WornTraveler
* The Gaia Hypothesis...
( 1 2 all )
AbstractHarmonix 3,667 32 08/31/09 03:19 PM
by Cubers
* Could we ever distinguish between design and natural, unintelligent, direction of life?
( 1 2 3 all )
johnm214 2,897 47 05/14/09 04:56 AM
by deimya

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
2,753 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.104 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.