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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Liquid Time]
    #10882183 -

The idea exists. So, the unicorn is partially existent therefore eluding the basis of it being non-nonexistent.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Fraggin]
    #10882234 -

Yeah, yeah, if you're a solipsistic jackass that is.

Anyways, if me imagining something makes it exist to everyone else...then my idea of "non-existence" makes that concept exist as well. So either way non-existence is possible, right?

Unless you want to argue that your idea of non-existence being impossible makes that idea partially existent as well...in which case i'm just going to say fuck it and let you idiots argue over nonobjective terminology.


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Liquid Time]
    #10882386 -

Liquid Time said:
Yeah, yeah, if you're a solipsistic jackass that is.



I don't see how solipsistism is relevant

Quote:
Anyways, if me imagining something makes it exist to everyone else...



It doesn't until you put the idea out there

Quote:
then my idea of "non-existence" makes that concept exist as well. So either way non-existence is possible, right?



The concept then exists, yes

Quote:
Unless you want to argue that your idea of non-existence being impossible makes that idea partially existent as well...in which case i'm just going to say fuck it and let you idiots argue over nonobjective terminology.


Some say a Dog has no soul. Show me this nothing.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Icelander]
    #10883734 -

Icelander said:
so we think that there must extra mass in the galaxy that we can't see, and we calculate that this 'dark matter' makes up 80% of the mass of the galaxy". When explained properly, it makes plenty of sense.


How does this make plenty of sense? It's just as likely to be incorrect as correct looking back on the history of scientific observation which is correcting itself all the time. Your post sounds positively religious to me. :shrug: Course I'm not a high priest so what would I know.:satansmoking:


It makes plenty of sense in that most people who, when provided with the same set of facts, would reach the same conclusion.
Fact: a body in orbit around a central mass M has a velocity proportional to its distance. This is because its centrifugal force outwards has to balance the force of gravity inwards. A lower orbit has to move faster. A larger orbit is slower.
Fact: we know roughly how many stars and black holes are in a galaxy.
Fact: from there we can calculate the mass of the galaxy, and thus the velocity needed for a given object to stay in orbit around that mass.
Fact: stars on the outside of the galaxy are moving too fast to be held in orbit by that mass.

Conclusion: We drastically underestimated the mass of the galaxy. But the amount of mass required would require there to be 20 times as many stars in the galaxy as we thought. How come we can't see them?

There are several explanations. One involves "gravity particles". Another postulates that the extra mass is there, but invisible to us because it doesn't interact with light. Everything just passes through it.

It just so happens that this last theory has held up the best. It is the most compatible with all the other theories we have about the universe. Perhaps some other theory will come along and replace the dark matter one, but until then this is the best we have. It wasn't just "made up to explain things" like God is, it was "made up to explain things and then tested".


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10883801 -

Science first involves observation, does it not?

Dark matter has never been observed and yet it is used as a means to account for 80% of mass that is not there?

The explanation for that is: "dark matter is mysterious and elusive and currently evades detection"!?!

Instead of making observations first we come up with a theory straight out of our asses and then attempt to support that theory with observations of dark matter that is not to be found.

Seems a little backwards to me.......


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10883859 -

Mr.Al said:
Science first involves observation, does it not?

Dark matter has never been observed and yet it is used as a means to account for 80% of mass that is not there?

The explanation for that is: "dark matter is mysterious and elusive and currently evades detection"!?!

Instead of making observations first we come up with a theory straight out of our asses and then attempt to support that theory with observations of dark matter that is not to be found.

Seems a little backwards to me.......




History and logic are strongly against you here, man.


In fact, we seldom are able to get direct evidence without going through some intermediary (even excluding our own interpretations and perceptions).  You think someone saw an atom under a microscope?  How about Helium?  It is all indirect evidence.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: johnm214]
    #10883943 -

Even observing 'regular' matter is indirect.  We only see light that it emits/reflects and then infer that matter exists there.  Its the same way with dark matter only we use gravity to infer it exists instead of E&M.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10883959 -

Mr.Al said:
Instead of making observations first we come up with a theory straight out of our asses and then attempt to support that theory with observations of dark matter that is not to be found.

Seems a little backwards to me.......


It seems backwards because you are completely wrong on the account.  The observation was made first and dark matter was/is hypothesized to account for the discrepancy in observation.

Its not like string 'theory'... its real science.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10884004 -

Quote:
Its not like string 'theory'... its real science.


Oh snap! :hi5:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10884039 -

Qubit said:
Even observing 'regular' matter is indirect.  We only see light that it emits/reflects and then infer that matter exists there.  I



Truth, even my microscope example was indirect.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10884088 -

What is this "dark matter" "made up" of?

How long will scientists look for it if it does not, in fact, exist?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (08/18/09 04:56 PM)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: MycoUnderground]
    #10884118 -

Icelander said:

It is completely irrelevant to the argument; we are not arguing against individual posters in this forum, therefore, giving me advice about a book is irrelevant. If you have some information that you found in one of these books that you think would help your argument, then by all means present it.

I don't need to know everything about religions to know that God is not real. :shrug:


Gee aren't you ashamed of yourself, being so uneducated, and still stumping these huge geniuses?


:sadyes:


MycoUnderground said:
If you truly are right, you will have completely rearranged what the world thinks is real and you will be considered one of the greatest minds in all of human history.


That would be awesome! :awedance:


Quote:
There are several misconceptions hidden in these statements:

•The BBT is not about the origin of the universe. Rather, its primary focus is the development of the universe over time.
•BBT does not imply that the universe was ever point-like.
•The origin of the universe was not an explosion of matter into already existing space.


Does the emboldened point imply that there was an origin of the universe?


virus1824 said:
Saying the big bang theory is false is nonsense anyway since its a theory based upon...experiments and data collected by observation.


This statement doesn't make sense, you're saying that since the Big Bang is a theory based on experiments and data collected by observation, it has to be true. Where is the logic in that?


Liquid Time said:
Does the imaginary unicorn standing outside your house exist?  No it doesn't, that makes it non-existent.  It's not a phenomenon either, if anything it's the lack of one.  Basically what you're saying is everything exists, right? This is the dumbest argument I've ever heard.


:lol:, I already covered this point in the OP with my bank account example (the money inside - it's non-existent!)! It's one thing to say that something doesn't exist, it's another to say that existence itself doesn't exist.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10884132 -

Mr.Al said:
How long will scientists look for it if it does not, in fact, exist?


Until there is no longer a discrepancy between the theory and observation.  Thats what scientists do...

I weep for our education system... this is pathetic.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10884187 -

Check out the temper tantrum that was thrown here:
http://www.anti-relativity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3240

Also see http://www.geocities.com/sciliterature/RelativityDebates.htm


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10884202 -

There is no proof that dark matter exists.

If people believe it does that is dogmatic thinking.

It is certainly possible that they have discovered the galaxy has a lot less mass than they thought.  Instead of examining that more deeply they are looking for mass that is not necessarily there.  The idea of a different kind of matter, "dark matter that is mysterious and elusive", being the answer to their mathematical discrepancies looks to me like "fudging the numbers".

We could narrow our thinking to the point of fundamentalism and BELIEVE that it is there even though it has not been found.  That would merely serve to prevent us from honestly examining the situation and prevent scientific growth in that area for some time....



It is close minded and dogmatic to shut our minds out from other ideas besides "mysterious and elusive dark matter".


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10884259 -

Nobody claims there is proof dark matter exists, you are throwing up a straw man.  There is a discrepancy between theory and observation and dark matter is a hypothesized solution of that.  Thats it. 

In general scientific theories/hypothesis dont rely on 'proof' because such a thing cannot be had.  There is only evidence (either contrary or consistent) and degrees of certainty.  Things are only proved in a philosophical/logical/mathematical sense where they are dependent on (assumed) axioms.

Its ironic that you are whining about close mindedness and dogma while simultaneously ignoring and trivializing all the replies that dont jive with your preconceived notions.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10884302 -

Qubit said:
  Things are only proved in a philosophical/logical/mathematical sense where they are dependent on (assumed) axioms.




Probably one of the bigger things people don't understand about science and simimlar persuits.  Their is only certainty when adopting presumptions that themselves are uncertain.





Quote:
Its ironic that you are whining about close mindedness and dogma while simultaneously ignoring and trivializing all the replies that dont jive with your preconceived notions.





He needs a more open mind, brah.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10884355 -

No one claims that proof of dark matter exists, yet it appears to be a common (perhaps most common) explanation for 80% of mass that is unaccounted for.

I find it laughable when scientists say they are looking for "dark matter that is mysterious and elusive".  I mean that it actually gives me a good chuckle.

Applying Occam's Razor I think it is more likely that their math is just wrong rather than just decide that there is a completely different kind of matter in existence that makes up 80% of this galaxy but has yet evaded detection.

No one wants to look like an asshole telling Stephen Hawking that maybe dark matter is just really good science fiction material.

EDIT

Sure, there are plenty of other possibilities.  It is important to be open minded. Id est:  Some people scream about people being the main cause of climate change when other planets in the solar system are heating up as well.  Perhaps the sun JUST MIGHT have something to do with the Earth heating up, perhaps.

I like to look at the simplest explanations first before I start thinking about new forms of matter that are undetected yet incredibly common.  Meh, that being said sometimes (admittedly rarely) the really strange answer is correct.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (08/18/09 05:34 PM)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10884443 -

People are looking at the math to see if general relativity needs to be amended.  Problem is when they tweak the theory then other observations are no longer consistent.  As it stands the theory with the least amount of discrepancy with observation is the original one developed by Einstein thus the existence of extra matter is the leading candidate to resolve the conflict.  Its presumptuous to assume we already know of all types of matter that exist, a presumption a non-scientists like yourself are free to make but one that real scientists cannot.

Your application of Occam's Razor is a manifestation of your own dogma against dark matter.  The universe doesnt care what you think is or isnt more simple, and it need not conform to your intuition.  (Its also a misplaced application of the razor, because the alternative theories provide less predictive and descriptive ability.  Occam's Razor only applies when two theories provide the same predictive and descriptive ability.  More assumptions are perfectly fine if it provides more descriptive ability, which is exactly what the dark matter assumption does.)


edit - And wtf does Stephen Hawking have to do with any of this?  Dark Matter isnt his idea...

Edited by Qubit (08/18/09 05:44 PM)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10884483 -

If said dark matter makes up 80% of the mass then it doesn't follow to me that it would be so hard to find.

Einstein's theory of relativity being wrong would mean a paradigm shift in science.

It looks like the more holes we find in our math (like missing 80% of the mass in the galaxy) the more strange ideas are propagated in an attempt to prop things up.

The logic seems to be: "we're wrong if dark matter is not there so therefore it must be there".

EDIT

I recall hearing that Hawking supported the idea of "dark matter".





--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (08/18/09 05:50 PM)

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