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InvisiblePoid
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The Big Bang Theory is false
    #10865023 - 08/15/09 02:35 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Before I present my argument for this, I'll just lay down a few relevant terms:



Universe- From Universe - Wikipedia
Quote:

The Universe comprises everything that physically exists: the entirety of space and time, all forms of matter, energy and momentum, and the physical laws and constants that govern them.




Non-Existence- An impossible hypothetical scenario where absolutely nothing, not even existence, exists, impossible because the the word 'non-existent' means the absence of the presence or existence of something (e.g.- Like the money in my bank account---it's non-existant!), and existence is present and existing.


The Big Bang- From Big Bang - Wikipedia
Quote:

The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the initial conditions and subsequent development of the universe that is supported by the most comprehensive and accurate explanations from current scientific evidence and observation. As used by cosmologists, the term Big Bang generally refers to the idea that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past, and continues to expand to this day.




Time- From Time - Wikipedia
Quote:

Time is a component of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects. Time has been a major subject of religion, philosophy, and science, but defining it in a non-controversial manner applicable to all fields of study has consistently eluded the greatest scholars.




Infinity-
Quote:

Infinity (symbolically represented by ¡Þ) refers to several distinct concepts - usually linked to the idea of "without end" - which arise in philosophy, mathematics, and theology. The word comes from the Latin infinitas or "unboundedness."







Premise: The Big-Bang Theory is false.

Evidence: Since absolute non-existence is merely an impossible hypothetical scenario, the Universe has always existed, and is also therefore infinite.

Conclusion: Since the universe is infinite, non-existence is merely an impossible hypothetical scenario, and the Big Bang Theory implies that the universe was non-existant at some point, it is false.

Edited by Poid (08/15/09 03:01 PM)

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OfflineEdgeChaos
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865051 - 08/15/09 02:45 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Nowhere in big bang theory does it claim that the universe did not exist before the event.

It simply "expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past, and continues to expand to this day."

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Invisibletoys in the attic
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865065 - 08/15/09 02:49 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Non-existence is a term which refers to something we cannot comprehend.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865072 - 08/15/09 02:50 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I come to the opposite conclusion. But my premises are built upon an Infinite Ultimate Reality, commonly called God. This a priori is Unmanifest and Eternal, but has apparently projected a self-generating blueprint of Eternal Ideas into a universe which was created by a omnidirectional withdrawal of Infinity, to create a 'vacuole,' like a food vacuole in an amoeba that withdraws cytoplasm omnidirectionally to produce a 'void.'

These ideas derive both from Plato, (Divine Mind, Realm of Pure Ideas) as well as from Jewish Kabbalism in which the withdrawal of the Divine Essence is called 'Tsimtsum.' All of temporal reality was projected from the Singularity, just as  a human being is an unfoldment of the DNA in two cells. In Kabbalism, our Supernal Father and Supernal Mother - the Sephira Chokma (Wisdom) and Binah (Understanding) emerge from the Crown (Kether) which is described as a Singularity. This is the metaphysical correlate to the physical Big Bang.

I am, philosophically, an Essentialist (Ontologist), not an Existentialist. I posit that "Essence precedes existence," ontologically. From the Undefinable proceeds the manifest. The finite mind can no more penetrate the Unmanifest than the manifest can penetrate the expanding boundary of the universe, beyond which is the Unmanifest, still retracting to accomodate this bubble of space-time. But that's just me.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865082 - 08/15/09 02:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

EdgeChaos said:
Nowhere in big bang theory does it claim that the universe did not exist before the event.

It simply "expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past, and continues to expand to this day."



If there was a finite time in that past, then that means that the universe was non-existent before it.


Quote:

toys in the attic said:
Non-existence is a term which refers to something we cannot comprehend.



Maybe we cannot fully comprehend every single aspect of it, but obviously we each know what it is since we're talking about it, so this means we actually do comprehend it to a certain degree.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865090 - 08/15/09 02:54 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

We have observed that things are flying away from the center of the universe at an alarming rate. Seems logical some kind of.. hmm... propellant... nah, explosion... nah, we'll go with bang. Yeah that's it! Some kind of bang might have set it all in motion.

That does sound really unreasonable because there is no non-existance so that means that... wait, what?


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Invisibletoys in the attic
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865095 - 08/15/09 02:55 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I mean that something does exist, it is just something beyond our comprehension.

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Bernackums]
    #10865107 - 08/15/09 02:57 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe we cannot fully comprehend every single aspect of it, but obviously we each know what it is since we're talking about it, so this means we actually do comprehend it to a certain degree.




Our mind only deals with things, it cannot deal with no-thing unless it uses a symbol, like nothing( or nothingness),  thus it would be comprehending a thing, not a no-thing. One's own idea or concept of nothingness, to be precise. And a concept or idea, is a thing.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Bernackums]
    #10865116 - 08/15/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
We have observed that things are flying away from the center of the universe at an alarming rate. Seems logical some kind of.. hmm... propellant... nah, explosion... nah, we'll go with bang. Yeah that's it! Some kind of bang might have set it all in motion.

That does sound really unreasonable because there is no non-existance so that means that... wait, what?



Ok, so maybe there was a huge explosion somewhere in the universe, and maybe things are expanding from said explosion's epicenter, but does this alone necessarily mean that this explosion happened in the "center" of the universe, and caused its "birth"? Remember, it's just a theory...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865124 - 08/15/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Nobody knows.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865127 - 08/15/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

When did I mention birth?

It seems you're the one who needs to remember it's a theory, not a "truth". As far as we can tell, that's our best educated guess. Your observation that non-existant things don't exist hasn't changed that.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865149 - 08/15/09 03:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:

Premise: The Big-Bang Theory is false.


I think you mean your conclusion is that the Big Bang theory is false. Otherwise this makes absolutely no sense at all.

Quote:

Evidence: Since absolute non-existence is merely an impossible hypothetical scenario, the Universe has always existed, and is also therefore infinite.

Conclusion: Since the universe is infinite, non-existence is merely an impossible hypothetical scenario, and the Big Bang Theory implies that the universe was non-existant at some point, it is false.




You fail at logic so hard.
Your premise is your conclusion, and if you meant that to actually be a premise it would still not make sense as pretty much no one accepts that as true. A premise is something already true, or pretty much thought to be true for the given argument.
Also, your evidence and conclusion are essentially the same thing. (which should not happen)

Essentially you've said:

Premise 1: A therefore B
Conclusion: B therefore A


--------------------

Edited by learningtofly (08/15/09 03:14 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Bernackums]
    #10865159 - 08/15/09 03:13 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I come to the opposite conclusion. But my premises are built upon an Infinite Ultimate Reality, commonly called God. This a priori is Unmanifest and Eternal, but has apparently projected a self-generating blueprint of Eternal Ideas into a universe which was created by a omnidirectional withdrawal of Infinity, to create a 'vacuole,' like a food vacuole in an amoeba that withdraws cytoplasm omnidirectionally to produce a 'void.'

These ideas derive both from Plato, (Divine Mind, Realm of Pure Ideas) as well as from Jewish Kabbalism in which the withdrawal of the Divine Essence is called 'Tsimtsum.' All of temporal reality was projected from the Singularity, just as  a human being is an unfoldment of the DNA in two cells. In Kabbalism, our Supernal Father and Supernal Mother - the Sephira Chokma (Wisdom) and Binah (Understanding) emerge from the Crown (Kether) which is described as a Singularity. This is the metaphysical correlate to the physical Big Bang.

I am, philosophically, an Essentialist (Ontologist), not an Existentialist. I posit that "Essence precedes existence," ontologically. From the Undefinable proceeds the manifest. The finite mind can no more penetrate the Unmanifest than the manifest can penetrate the expanding boundary of the universe, beyond which is the Unmanifest, still retracting to accomodate this bubble of space-time. But that's just me.



So what I got from all this is that you believe the universe is finite, yet you still believe in a metaphysical correlate to the physical Big Bang, am I correct?


Quote:

toys in the attic said:
I mean that something does exist, it is just something beyond our comprehension.



Again, since we're even discussing it, we understand/comprehend it to some degree.


Quote:

Bernackums said:
Quote:

Maybe we cannot fully comprehend every single aspect of it, but obviously we each know what it is since we're talking about it, so this means we actually do comprehend it to a certain degree.




Our mind only deals with things, it cannot deal with no-thing unless it uses a symbol, like nothing( or nothingness),  thus it would be comprehending a thing, not a no-thing. One's own idea or concept of nothingness, to be precise. And a concept or idea, is a thing.



We may have different approaches to understanding certain phenomenon, but in the end, we are all trying to understand the same thing.


Quote:

Bernackums said:
When did I mention birth?

It seems you're the one who needs to remember it's a theory, not a "truth". As far as we can tell, that's our best educated guess. Your observation that non-existant things don't exist hasn't changed that.



I didn't observe that non-existant things don't exist, in fact, I proved the exact opposite with my empty bank account example (the money in my bank is non-existant!). What I was saying is that total non-existance is an impossible hypothetical scenario, and since the Big Bang theory posits that the universe didn't exist at some point, it is false.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865178 - 08/15/09 03:20 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

We may have different approaches to understanding certain phenomenon, but in the end, we are all trying to understand the same thing.




Right, a thing.

Quote:

What I was saying is that total non-existance is an impossible hypothetical scenario, and since the Big Bang theory posits that the universe didn't exist at some point, it is false.




Quote:

Nowhere in big bang theory does it claim that the universe did not exist before the event.




--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865180 - 08/15/09 03:20 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

"idea that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past, and continues to expand to this day."

Where in there, Poid, does it say magically popped into existence from non-existence? (This is using your definition so you cannot change it)


--------------------

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OfflineEdgeChaos
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: EdgeChaos]
    #10865195 - 08/15/09 03:24 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I think our definition of "the universe" is flawed because we lack the technology to understand it.

like the old world ship captains thinking they would fall off the side of the earth.

It would be more accurate to say the "universe as we know it" began with the big bang.


Poid is saying that the term "finite time" used in the definition of universe implies that there was nothing before that finite time in the past.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: EdgeChaos]
    #10865210 - 08/15/09 03:28 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

"Science" is only interested in, and can only judge, what happens in this universe from when it started. It is not concerned with what happened before it, so even talking about before it is pointless


--------------------

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: learningtofly]
    #10865215 - 08/15/09 03:29 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
Right, a thing.



Every phenomenon is a thing, even the concept of non-existence. We're arguing semantics here.


Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

EdgeChaos said:
Nowhere in big bang theory does it claim that the universe did not exist before the event.

It simply "expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past, and continues to expand to this day."



If there was a finite time in that past, then that means that the universe was non-existent before it.





Quote:

learningtofly said:
I think you mean your conclusion is that the Big Bang theory is false. Otherwise this makes absolutely no sense at all.

You fail at logic so hard.
Your premise is your conclusion, and if you meant that to actually be a premise it would still not make sense as pretty much no one accepts that as true. A premise is something already true, or pretty much thought to be true for the given argument.
Also, your evidence and conclusion are essentially the same thing. (which should not happen)

Essentially you've said:

Premise 1: A therefore B
Conclusion: B therefore A



Of course that is my conclusion, I am here to debate this.

An argument's conclusion usually includes the premise, in-part or whole.

A premise is absolutely not something that is usually already accepted as being true, any statement could be a premise, such as the statement, "God exists.".

It doesn't matter that my evidence and conclusion are similar, you aren't even debating the issue at hand here.


Essentially what I've said is:
A + B = AB


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: learningtofly]
    #10865229 - 08/15/09 03:32 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
"idea that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past, and continues to expand to this day."

Where in there, Poid, does it say magically popped into existence from non-existence? (This is using your definition so you cannot change it)



For the third time, read the bold print.


Quote:

EdgeChaos said:
I think our definition of "the universe" is flawed because we lack the technology to understand it.

like the old world ship captains thinking they would fall off the side of the earth.

It would be more accurate to say the "universe as we know it" began with the big bang.


Poid is saying that the term "finite time" used in the definition of universe implies that there was nothing before that finite time in the past.



I define the universe as everything that is, and so does Wikipedia, apparently, so let's just use that definition for that term. :smile:


Quote:

learningtofly said:
"Science" is only interested in, and can only judge, what happens in this universe from when it started. It is not concerned with what happened before it, so even talking about before it is pointless



To say that it started implies that it was somehow "born", and to say that it was born is to say it didn't exist at some point.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865294 - 08/15/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I look forward to reading your formal refutation of The Big Bang Theory in 'Nature', 'Scientific American' or some similar magazine of high repute.


--------------------

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