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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Bernackums]
    #10903766 -

zouden said:
Quote:
Alright, if the universe is finite in size, then what exists beyond it? Something other than the universe?


You can't have anything beyond it, if it has no boundaries.


If it has no boundaries, then it's infinite:
Quote:
Infinity (symbolically represented by ¡Þ) refers to several distinct concepts - usually linked to the idea of "without end" - which arise in philosophy, mathematics, and theology. The word comes from the Latin infinitas or "unboundedness."




zouden said:
It means we can conceive of other universes, and it's probably very likely that there are other universes.


Nah, in this thread, the term 'universe' encompasses all, including these potential "other universes".


Bernackums said:
Quote:
Again, read the terms I laid out in the OP. There is no "our", "their", or "your" universe. In this thread, the term 'universe' means absolutely everything that is. So whatever the hell "lies beyond our universe" is part of the universe.


I think most of the trouble in this thread has stemmed from you using the term universe to mean everything, and others (myself included) not using it as such.

If that is the case then I'm curious, why do you think there is nothing beyond our perceivable portion of this universe that this part of it could expand into?

Does TBBT imply that it is expanding into space that doesn't exist, or space we simply aren't aware of?


When I consider this universe being infinite, I don't think it ends with this vacuum. It may very well be just another layer.


This is why I defined my terms in the OP.

I absolutely do not think there is nothing beyond our perception of this world, in fact, I am saying the exact opposite by asserting that non-existence is impossible.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10903779 -

Quote:
If it has no boundaries, then it's infinite:


Incorrect.  Infinite does imply unbounded, but unbounded does not imply infinite.  Zouden already provided you examples of this.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10903894 -

Well, by definition, it does. What zouden provided me with was a hypothetical model of the universe, but that doesn't really mean anything since it's merely a hypothetical model. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10903937 -

Quote:
Well, by definition, it does.


No, it doesn't.  Infinity implies unbounded, but not the other way around - unbounded does not imply infinity.  Its a classic mistake and easy for anyone to make.  Affirming a consequent does not affirm the antecedent.

Also, its not a hypothetical model - its a theoretical model.  There is a difference.  Regardless its doesn't negate the fact that unbounded does not imply infinity. (no matter how much you want it too).

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10904002 -

Poid said:
Well, by definition, it does. What zouden provided me with was a hypothetical model of the universe, but that doesn't really mean anything since it's merely a hypothetical model. :shrug:


Think of it like the surface of the Earth...it obviously isn't infinite, but it is unbounded.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10904022 -

OK, you're making this assertion that unboundedness does not necessarily imply infinity, but I don't understand how this is so. If there are no bounds to something, that means it extends to infinity, right?


You can keep traveling in a straight line on the Earth for eternity, and you'll never reach an "end": is this basically how you figure that unboundedness does not necessarily imply infinity?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10904048 -

You can keep traveling in a straight line on the Earth for eternity, and you'll never reach an "end": is this basically how you figure that unboundedness does not necessarily imply infinity?

Bingo!

You can continue to travel in a straight line for an unlimited number of km (infinity), but the surface of the Earth isn't actually infinite. You just keep repeating the same loop.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Edited by trendal (08/21/09 12:11 PM)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10904065 -

You can't use a phenomenon that applies to a spherical, physical mass of energy as a theory for all of existence; I have to return to the question that if you believe that the universe is spherical and finite, then what's on the other side?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10904081 -

Nothing that science can determine, unfortunately :frown:

It isn't a part of our universe. It's external to it.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10904093 -

There's no "external", and there's no other universe. How many times do I have to refer to my definitions in the OP...:facepalm:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10904179 -

The big bang theory we are talking about does not subscribe to your definitions.  In the big bang theory the universe is defined as trendal describes it.

"Universe" used to be defined as you choose to define it, but as the theories evolved so have the definitions.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10904206 -

So the Big Bang theory has nothing to do with existence?


By 'universe', in this thread, we mean all that exists. Just because theories have evolved doesn't mean that this definition is incorrect.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10904226 -

You're free to define things as you will, especially for the sake of an argument.  But the bang theory already has a set of definitions and that set conflicts with yours.  Arguing against the bang theory with definitions that are inconsistent with the bang theory doesn't make alot of sense and doesn't illuminate anything.

Using your definition the big bang need not describe the evolution of the universe.  What then do you call what trendal is calling the universe?  What do you call that which the big bang describes the evolution of?  Redefining things in this way only confuses the discussion and alienates those who aren't hip to your alternative definitions.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10904250 -

The Big Bang theory may include specific definitions, but my definition does not in any way conflict with the Big Bang. It's just a word to describe all that is (does the Big Bang deny that there is 'all that is'?).


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10904291 -

The big bang theory describes the evolution of the 'universe', the 100 billion light year wide, 13.6 billion year old, finite, unbounded region we observe.  This is not necessarily the same as your definition of the universe, which is all that exists (but maybe it is).  This inconsistency holds back the discussion.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10904322 -

If the Big Bang implies that all there is in existence is a 100 billion light year wide, 13.6 billion year old, finite, unbounded region, then it is wrong.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10904351 -

Poid said:
If the Big Bang implies that all there is in existence is a 100 billion light year wide, 13.6 billion year old, finite, unbounded region, then it is wrong.


It doesnt imply that, and never has.  Still, there is no evidence that anything else does exist outside the (traditionally defined) universe, so your claim is pure conjecture and/or faith.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10904521 -

Ahhhh the study of the cosmos is a bitch... the mind really seems to get pummeled by all the considerations...

Just curious who here likes string theory?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10904581 -

Poid said:
There's no "external", and there's no other universe. How many times do I have to refer to my definitions in the OP...:facepalm:


Why isn't there an external? How do you know there's not "multi-verses," and what makes you so sure that it ends at one solitary universe?

I find it merely impossible that there's only one universe, there's always a greater macrocosm to every microcosm.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: andrewss]
    #10904596 -

Just curious who here likes string theory?

I used to be really into string theory, a good 10 years ago. Couldn't get enough of it!

Now...I don't really buy it. It's just too complex for it to be the answer. Next!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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