deCypher said:

Let's assume that I'm interested in maximizing my happiness and minimizing my suffering during my time here on Earth.  If presented with a situation wherein behaving immorally (stealing, lying, cheating, raping, murdering, etcetera) would be to my benefit and there was no chance of getting caught, are there any compelling reasons why I shouldn't do so?

I can't think of any.  Note that when I refer to immoral actions here I am referring to things that are commonly and currently agreed to be evil, which are typically things that increase suffering.  I am not implying the existence of an objective morality.  Doing something that you personally think is wrong would not necessarily be to your benefit if you feel guilt after performing the deed; this thought experiment is instead about things that most members of society would conceive as being immoral and that you yourself would have no qualms about performing.

Now, I wholeheartedly support other people in their quest to remain morally upstanding and righteous citizens; after all, who would want others to do evil to them?  However I can see no benefit to adhering to ethical principles if doing so is disadvantageous or if behaving immorally yields positive consequences.  Your thoughts?

Edit: Some say that we should use Compassion as the basis for morality; we should see ourselves in the other person and treat them like we would treat ourselves.  My question is why?

---

Generally agree although I have personal ethics that determine what I want to do. I really don't mind ripping off a bank but wouldn't  rape someone or cause unwarrented physical harm.

Quote:

People that say they are not affected by bad behaviour, are just self justifying that behaviour.

---

ScavengerType said:

You may think your getting a free lunch nipping at the universe but it will eventually smack you down or turn around and bite your fuckin head off. It's the law of karma or so I'm told.

---

C.M. Mann said: If you choose to do mean and hurtful things, it affects you in ways you can not conceive. It affects the way you treat people, and treat yourself.  It affects your attitude and perception. People that don't steal, murder,lie, have a healthier state of mind that completely benefits that person.

---

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
If your interested in maximizing happyness, how can this be possible by inflicting suffering on others at the same time?
That suffering can only be suffering that is within you also
For example if you steal your suffering from greed yourself, you don't cure it by feeding it

---

deCypher said:

Let's assume that I'm interested in maximizing my happiness and minimizing my suffering during my time here on Earth.  If presented with a situation wherein behaving immorally (stealing, lying, cheating, raping, murdering, etcetera) would be to my benefit and there was no chance of getting caught, are there any compelling reasons why I shouldn't do so?

---

deCypher said:

Chronic777 said:

If your interested in maximizing happyness, how can this be possible by inflicting suffering on others at the same time?
That suffering can only be suffering that is within you also
For example if you steal your suffering from greed yourself, you don't cure it by feeding it

---

Greed implies an addiction to desire or a lack of ability for self-control.  I'm simply talking about taking advantage of a situation when it is appropriate; this isn't greed, simply common sense and enlightened self interest.

---

The enlightened mind has no interest in anything at all, it seeks to gain nothing, achieve nothing, it doesnt even see getting an advantage out of something

This can sound horrible, but goals are still reached, things still get done, but inwardly you know fully that nothing has ever happened anywhere at any time

Im not trying to debunk you, i think your totally right about moral living, its all conceptual & not reeeally real, however when we talk about the enlightened mind it can never be about interest, intent, gaining or losing, or morals, it has to be about ultimate truth.
Thats what enlightenment means to me anyway...

Not trying to make a point here, but I'd like to be convinced of what you're saying and so far I've seen no compelling argument. 

zouden said:

I think it's quite simple. Stealing, lying, cheating, raping and murdering won't maximize your happiness. It may for some people, but not for most, and I doubt it would for you.

---

Chronic777 said:

The enlightened mind has no interest in anything at all, it seeks to gain nothing, achieve nothing, it doesnt even see getting an advantage out of something

This can sound horrible, but goals are still reached, things still get done

---

Chronic777 said:

If your interested in maximizing happiness, how can this be possible by inflicting suffering on others at the same time?
That suffering can only be suffering that is within you also
For example if you steal your suffering from greed yourself, you don't cure it by feeding it

---

Greed implies an addiction to desire or a lack of ability for self-control.  I'm simply talking about taking advantage of a situation when it is appropriate; this isn't greed, simply common sense and enlightened self interest.

---

The enlightened mind has no interest in anything at all, it seeks to gain nothing, achieve nothing, it doesn't even see getting an advantage out of something

This can sound horrible, but goals are still reached, things still get done, but inwardly you know fully that nothing has ever happened anywhere at any time

I'm not trying to debunk you, i think your totally right about moral living, its all conceptual & not really real, however when we talk about the enlightened mind it can never be about interest, intent, gaining or losing, or morals, it has to be about ultimate truth.
That's what enlightenment means to me anyway...

---

Emotions are what "they" are using to keep you in a "unconscious" state. So that you will not open your mind to "infinite consciousness". Because like Chronic so elegantly put it, once you've got the world in perspective, or reached enlightenment, you will realize that there is no point in anything you do. They use your emotion of fear to control you. They make you fear the future, fear the present, fear the consequences, fear the unknown, fear the "paranormal" and ultimately, they make you fear DEATH. Media is one tool used to suppress your brain waves. When you are only worrying about Death, emotions, Brittany spears, which fast food you're gonna eat today, SCIENCE or RELIGION, you don't pay attention to the truth.... infinite consciousness.

The reality of TIME, that you are experiencing, is just a reflection of whats going on in your brain. Infinite Consciousness has no physical form, until it comes into the realm of TIME. That is why there are some people who have a connection to the "paranormal".

Imagine an hour glass, the top, empty, is infinite consciousness. The bottom, where all the dense physical material exists, is the reality of TIME that you are experiencing. "They" who are in control of our whole world, are in between the dimension of infinite consciousness, and the dimension of time. They are in the middle, in-between dimensions. "They" can only control you while you are in fear. Fear is just an emotional energy that you emit, and they can absorb that energy.

My point is, living morally means nothing. Living immorally means nothing. It is a choice you make, the dark force, or the light force. It is your understanding of infinite consciousness that will determine if your emotions take control of your actions. When you allow your emotions to control you, you allow them to control you. They can manipulate your emotions.

not convinced?

google Zechariah Sitchen
or    David Icke

deCypher said:

Edit: Some say that we should use Compassion as the basis for morality; we should see ourselves in the other person and treat them like we would treat ourselves.  My question is why?

---

deCypher said:

Quote:

C.M. Mann said: If you choose to do mean and hurtful things, it affects you in ways you can not conceive. It affects the way you treat people, and treat yourself.  It affects your attitude and perception. People that don't steal, murder,lie, have a healthier state of mind that completely benefits that person.

---

This is an interesting response.  Do you have any evidence for this claim?  What negative effects would I incur by acting immorally?

---

MyceliumRunning said:

not convinced?

google Zechariah Sitchen
or    David Icke

---

deCypher said:

Let's assume that I'm interested in maximizing my happiness and minimizing my suffering during my time here on Earth.  If presented with a situation wherein behaving immorally (stealing, lying, cheating, raping, murdering, etcetera) would be to my benefit and there was no chance of getting caught, are there any compelling reasons why I shouldn't do so?

I can't think of any.  Note that when I refer to immoral actions here I am referring to things that are commonly and currently agreed to be evil, which are typically things that increase suffering.  I am not implying the existence of an objective morality.  Doing something that you personally think is wrong would not necessarily be to your benefit if you feel guilt after performing the deed; this thought experiment is instead about things that most members of society would conceive as being immoral and that you yourself would have no qualms about performing.

Now, I wholeheartedly support other people in their quest to remain morally upstanding and righteous citizens; after all, who would want others to do evil to them?  However I can see no benefit to adhering to ethical principles if doing so is disadvantageous or if behaving immorally yields positive consequences.  Your thoughts?

Edit: Some say that we should use Compassion as the basis for morality; we should see ourselves in the other person and treat them like we would treat ourselves.  My question is why?

---