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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6095698 -

Two points to consider here-

Some people who suppress them selves, via exercising self control and discipline over impulses, are exercising GREATER freedom of control over their own lives then those who give in to every immediately gratifying impulse and self indulgence. 

If amorality to you means condoning self indulgence and immediate self gratification without regard for positive/negative right/wrong good/ bad consequences to those actions, on any level or scale of measurement, I think thats some poor advise on realizing freedom Psilo.

The truly free wo/man is the one, who is NOT a SLAVE to his impulses and is free to make choices based on an even greater good he she/deems as such. The mammalian brain allows for us to use the concepts of right/wrong positive/ negative, good/bad for judgment before taking action, related to how we want to experience life for ourselves, so we can live with MORE freedom of choice to determine our most valued desired outcomes, not less.

Animals with only the reptilian brain developed do not have this freedom of control and are bound to acting on instinct.

The freedom to choose actions for ourselves and especially the freedom to choose to suppress acting on impulses affords one more freedom to create desired outcomes, and effects and avoid undesirable one, over the one who is bound to primal urges.

To me, living amorally just sounds like giving your power and freedom away to impulse and we evolved beyond that for a reason.



Second point.

Sometimes, we ALL allow others to choose for us because, we have FREELY chosen to value their opinion, or authority, OR experience with something.

Like how you posted that quote from that man. You freely made a personal value choice to place a good/right/positive value on his opinion.

Had you ignored such concepts of good/bad, right/wrong, positive/negative, you never would've been able to Appreciate it in the first place.

A system of morals is based on values and our values are the things we have devloped a personal appreaciation for.

Why would you want to ditch your use of this higher evolved system in your life. It's the same as saying, "I am going to give into my reptilian brain and let pre-programmed instincts, primal urges and impulses dictate my life for me."


:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6095765 -

I guess I'm up in the clouds on this subject. For me the question of morals is the question of assumptions of knowing things that cannot be known and then putting ultimate values on them. I don't think the universe works this way. In the day to day life of the average man this is not a consideration of course.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Icelander]
    #6095850 -

I think I am better understanding what he is trying to say, if its not a suggestion to reverse back to the reptilian brain and into human psychotic behavior.

I think he is just using the word amoral, to describe the toltec version, of identifying value based programming that does not serve us and using our freedom of will and power to change it to better suit our own personal selves.

sure, we have all had values for how to live, passed on to us, by parents, friends and teachers. I think he may be just trying to remind us that we are not bound to any of those and that we are free to change them.

If that is closer to what he is saying, then, I think amoral is the wrong word for what the Toltecs would call, transformation, to attain more personal power and freedom in ones life.

Is that closer to it Psilo?

Oddly, after my last reply, I randomly grabbed a book and randomly flipped open to a page.

The book is called. The complete idiots guide to Toltec Wisdom, and the chapter was about, identifying programming that no longer serves us through being, the unbiased, un opinionated  and un judgmental witness to our own selves and actions first.

When we have identified behavior that only brings us pain and more of what we don't want or like, then, we can freely adopt new values to act upon which will bring us greater creative control over our lives.

from my own words, being in free control over our lives and creations does often require the suppression of impulses. Thats vital for focusing and directing energy, so has not to run power drains scattering it here and their over every fleeting fancy and whim. It also requires the changing of values when we find, they do not serve us towards what it is we wish to create in our lives.

I think Psilo is referring to people who feel bound to their values, that were adopted from others at one time versus, those who are free to change them at will, when it serves them too.

:peace: :heart:

BTW, whoever is familiar with toltec teaching, being the observer and witness does help on to gain clarity. However, that clarity is useless if we just remain a mute fly stuck on the wall in life.

Where is the freedom in that sort of self imposed paralysis?

I think its about a balance of being the observer and observed who is acting and creating, and remaining flexible to make adjustments along the way with the help of the neutral observers clarity on things.

Its a balancing act of learning to play both roles at the same time.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6095878 -

"BTW, whoever is familiar with toltec teaching, being the observer and witness does help on to gain clarity."

I think both Ice and myself have been on that path for a number of years. I am not really impressed with Sherri Roosenthal though....I could not spend an hour on her forum without her soliciting me for funds in PMs. Her book is really a compilation that rehashes Castaneda and Ruiz's teachings in a general way. there is some decent stuff there, but she is VERY commercially oriented.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6095884 -

That may not be what psilo meant but it's how I was looking at it. At some point I realized I was in my own little world, and then you showed up. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6095971 -

You can be amoral and disciplined. Being an amoralist means you accept that "right" and "wrong", "good" and "bad", etc, are not firm or objective concepts. Being an amoralist does not equal being on a hedonistic treadmill or indulging in pleasures.

For example: I consider myself an amoralist, yet I still see the personal value of self-discipline. There are certain goals I have set for myself. These goals cannot be attained by laziness or half-assedness. In order to reach, and hopefully, exceed my goals I need to control my urge to sit around all day playing video games and similar instant-gratification behavior. Thus, while I don't see discipline as inherently good, it seems useful (good) within the context of completing my goals.

As I said earlier, value judgments are best used in the form of if-then statements. "If you want to accomplish a goal, then you should practice self-discipline." Discipline can be considered a "valuable" or "good" behavior if accomplishing a goal is something you wish to do. But, to the person who doesn't want to strive after goals and would much rather be a couch-potato, self-discipline is not "valuable" nor "good."

Edited by MushmanTheManic (09/24/06 03:11 PM)

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6096096 -

Quote:
Mush said:
Being an amoralist means you accept that "right" and "wrong", "good" and "bad", etc, are not firm or objective concepts.


That makes total sense.

The way Psilo was describing being amoral sounded like a person who rejects a self disciplined value system all together.

We all have them. I suppose the difference is between those who feel bound to them because they believe there are objective rights and wrongs (in the moral sense) and those who know they are freely choosing them as subjective values to live by.


:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6096158 -

Mushman has said it far better than I have.

I think the problem stemmed from the ambiguous meaning of "Good" being confused with affinity.

Being amoral doesn't mean having no preference, it is merely the release of deeming things positive and negative, righteous and evil. Do i prefer a blowjob over chinese water torture? you bet your ass I do, but I dont consider a blowjob a more righteous action than chinese water torture. They are both actions, and my personal judgement ranking/rating system of righteous to evil doesnt DO or change anything except my own perception of those things.... why put a filter on reality when you dont have to?

me getting a great job, and buying a house, and working very hard everyday isn't something I consider "good"... it just IS, it is me.... living.
Me slapping some random stranger isn't an evil or good act, it is just me slapping a random stranger....

The reason why I listen to NPR news all the time is because they are the only media source I know of that attempts to use a few adjectives as possible when delivering the news. Instead of a "gruesome, tragedy when a man shot his loving and caring wife in the head" it is "a man shot his wife in the head today".

so... I hope between this post and mushmans better explanation this helps better explain my stance on this subject.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6096209 -

Yes, it is cleared up what being amoral is (thanks mush) and that you are not promoting reptilian brain thinking and psychotic human behavior. :lol:

If your post header said

Becoming free of moral bondage, I doubt there would have been much questioning.

Having personal values is like having personal morals and I think thats where the confusion for many came from about what you were saying, when saying "Free yourself from morals. It reads like Free yourself from values." To have preferences, we need the ability to place higher and lower values on things. They are subjective of course and I think that is the key to understanding amorality it seems, realizing the subjective nature of values/moral/preferences.


Don't you think most S&Pers already realize that? The only one I can recall speaking otherwise here is Fivestar. Even still, he couldn't prove an objective source of the values he tauts here. I think thats why I thought you might be saying something else, like trying to make being regressive a progressive new trend or something :lol:



Hey Hue, I had read some Castaneda about 11 years back and forgot most of it. I purchased that book last spring to act as light refresher course. It serves that purpose well and is easy and enjoyable to read, though, I haven't read much more then 20 random pages of it yet:lol:.  It's also good to hear different perspective on Toltec Wisdom and how to apply it.


:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6096274 -

Read The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz. It is an excellent introduction. Rereading Castaneda might be an enjoyable experience as well.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6096312 -

Miguel Ruiz :thumbup: all his work.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Icelander]
    #6096565 -

Yes I keep hearing that one is great.

I do have one of his books called The Mastery of Love. That book rocks! He came from angles I never saw anyone see from before. He is an extremeley insightful and wise human being. Loved it loved it loved it!

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6096608 -

Hue just sent me his latest, although I can't remember the title at the moment, it is a powerful book.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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