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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6094280 -

(Sung to the tune of Monty Python's "Lumberjack Song")

I'm a sociopath
And I'm ok
I kill all night and I steal all day
(He's a sociopath
And he's ok
He kills all night and he steals all day)

I cut jugulars
I eat my lunch
I go to the lavatry'
On Wednesdays I go stalking
and have buttered scones for tea
(He cuts jugulars
He eats his lunch
He goes to the lavatry'
On Wednesdays He goes stalking
and has buttered scones for tea)

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6094286 -

It's all very amusing until one enters your life experience.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6094305 -

It's only amusing because it is horrific. The idea of humans walking the world with a black hole where their heart should be is chilling and tragic.

The interactions I have had with Anti-social personalities have been an education, and inspired me to undertake an independent study course on the subject. The conclusion I came to was that, for the great majority of those who have missed out on empathic connection and deep love during their first 3 years of life, it is too late.

For the rest of us, it is never too late to become motivated to share love and acceptance with those we come into contact with. Is this a "moral" path? Perhaps, and perhaps your definition of compassionate moralism is identical to what I consider ethical self-guidance, but expending our personal energy in judgment about the "evil" actions of others is a huge waste of life, IMO.

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Re: becoming free of morality *DELETED* [Re: Veritas]
    #6094525 -

Post deleted by MarkostheGnostic

Reason for deletion: Unnecessary and unacknowledged rant (not that a rant should be acknowledged).


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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6094546 -

Geez, it's just a game.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6094610 -

Like I would expect you to grok-in-fullness my point. You're probably programming yourself with worse. Correct me if I err.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6094625 -

Why I never!

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6094878 -

The other day, I went to this persons house, and they said "Hey" to me.... i was appalled at the indecency of this person... we were definitely not on "Hey" terms, we barely knew each other. I expected a firm handshake and to be called "Sir".

what is this world coming to?

/sarcastic cynicism

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6094884 -

My brother dated a true sociopath once. Her husband divorced her when she set their house on fire while he was asleep killing one of her children. She claimed that the fire was unintentional even though she had packed and left just before the fire started. She tried to sleep with my father who ran her off and told my brother, who was in denial. Towards the end of their torture (relationship) she tried to convince my brother to murder her ex-husband for monetary profit. And to think that I came close to allowing her to babysit my then small children gives me the creeps...something inside told me not to do it....I am glad I heeded that warning in the light of what I later found out. A really fucked up person all of the way. My brother still has terrible luck with women.....most have been crazy as shit house rats, but that one was "special".


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6094922 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Incidentally, morality based on compassion is an intrinsic aspect of human development which transcends cultural differences. Moreover, unless one is a feral child, human beings are never "amoral," we are 'moral' or 'immoral' relative to our behavior in the light of inner-directed empathic responses or to socially-imposed mores which are derived from higher empathic responses. I don't need speed limit signs and blinking lights to keep me from speeding in a school zone for example. Do you?


hit the nail right on the head.


--------------------
"and everlasting joy crowning their heads"

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6094923 -

"Am I just wasting my time by lamenting in this post?"

I do not think that anyone here wants to seriously promote being a sociopath as a lifestyle choice, but I also agree that rendering black and white moral judgements is a waste of time and energy. Everything should be evaluated case by case based on practicality.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/24/06 02:24 AM)

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: punch42]
    #6094926 -

I disagree. Morality is merely cultural programming. A blanket policy for human behavior is a bad choice.

"And the dealer wants you thinking
That it’s either black or white.
Thank God it’s not that simple
In My Secret Life." --Leoanrd Cohen


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6094938 -

Quote:
Here is a good example: speed limits.... everyone here knows that they are perfectly capable of driving 110 MPH, and believe it to be so, yet the consequences from the law usually keep us from doing so.... and even if you were to do 110 mph in a 60 zone, you wouldn't feel guilty.

basically, there is a huge difference between following the rules set forth by society for the sake of societal cohesion, and acting upon what you deem to be wrong and right for such selfish purposes of feeling "good" about yourself.


Guy A drives at 110mph. It makes him feel good, because he gets to drive at the speed he wants too. The consequences of not having the freedom to do so, is to much of a deterent to not do what pleases himself, so he does it.  He feels good about his ability to be a safe driver at 110 mph. Guy A is being selfish (concerned only with whats good for him in his eyes)

Guy B drives at 60mph. It makes him feel good about following the law that protects and serves him. The consequences of driving faster then the speed limit, being harmed in a crash or harming others or getting a fine,  is to much of a deterent from not doing what would please him, which is for those things not to happen, so he drives the speed limit. He feels good about his ability to be a safe driver and law abiding citizen of his community. Guy A is being selfish (concerned only with what is good for him in his eyes)

What's the difference?

Either way, they are both doing what makes them feel good about themselves.
They both think they are being right to do it.
The deterent for both is the potential loss of something each values personally. A, the freedom to drive as he pleases. B, the freedom from high speed accidents, fines and good citizen standing in his community.

Quote:
Do you really think the balance of humanity would be upset if people ceased doing what they deemed "good"? I think in the end, through a long chain of cause and effect, no action is wholly righteous, or something which ultimately is for the greater good of all of humanity.




Guy A chooses to live amorally because he deems it the best way to serve his personal values of what makes for a good way to live for that best.

Guy B chooses to live morally because he deems it the best way to serve his personal values of what makes for a good way to live for that best.

Whats the difference?

Guy A says living amorally is better and morally worse.

Guy B says living morally is better and amoral worse.

What is the difference between the two guys when they are both just making right and wrong value judgments against each other?

Seeing amorality as being better,leading to more self good in life over living by morals which is deemed worse, leading to less self good in life, you are still in the duality box, that the "self righteous sort" of moral living springs forth from.

Truly looking at the two from outside of the box, shows them to be based on the same  "right way to live" "wrong way to live" judgment principle.

The only way to escape the box is to live by the principle of live and let live.

One telling moral people that they are living wrong and that their amoral way is a better way to live, is no different then another, who says the same thing in reverse.

Whatever.:lol: This just looked funny to me, like the "I am ego less" phrase. It takes an ego to make that statement, just like it takes self righteous values to say being amoral is better then being morally self righteous.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6094967 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Guy A chooses to live amorally because he deems it the best way to serve his personal values of what makes for a good way to live for that best.

Guy B chooses to live morally because he deems it the best way to serve his personal values of what makes for a good way to live for that best.

Whats the difference?

Guy A says living amorally is better and morally worse.

Guy B says living morally is better and amoral worse.

What is the difference between the two guys when they are both just making right and wrong value judgments against each other?

Seeing amorality as being better,leading to more self good in life over living by morals which is deemed worse, leading to less self good in life, you are still in the duality box, that the "self righteous sort" of moral living springs forth from.

Truly looking at the two from outside of the box, shows them to be based on the same  "right way to live" "wrong way to live" judgment principle.

The only way to escape the box is to live by the principle of live and let live.

One telling moral people that they are living wrong and that their amoral way is a better way to live, is no different then another, who says the same thing in reverse.

Whatever.:lol: This just looked funny to me, like the "I am ego less" phrase. It takes an ego to make that statement, just like it takes self righteous values to say being amoral is better then being morally self righteous.

:peace: :heart:


I have yet to ever say that "living an amoral life is better than live a moral one". I truly have strived to rid the concepts of "evil" and "righteous" from my reality, and have done fairly well.

This is what I keep trying to tell all of you: for just a second, try to think, without the concepts of good, bad, righteous, evil, negative, positive (etc),... about thinking without the concepts of good, bad etc....

do you understand that the statement "Living an amoral life is better than one with morality" is a statement from someone who still makes value judgements based on a moral framework.

Maybe I should have used a better phrase than "becoming free" since to many people that means overcoming some sort of suppression of freedom... which.... we all know is..... bad..... right? :laugh:

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6095027 -

"If you limit your choices only to what seems possible or reasonable, you disconnect yourself from what you truly want, and all that is left is a compromise."
Robert Fritz

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6095145 -

I diagnosed my ex-wife at the time of my exit from the 'marriage' as:
Axis I: Alcohol Dependent
Axis II: Borderline Personality Disorder, with Antisocial and Sadistic Features.

I seem to attract Borderlines (Glenn Close depicted one in 'Fatal Attraction'), and I'll take on of those (mostly females) over a straight up Sociopath (Antisocial Personality Disorder). I feel for your brother. There is something about his personality that is like an incomplete electron shell, or a lock and key fit, that attracts a certain kind, as I used to before my Lady entered my life. I become attracted to a certain appearance, but certain 'types' of woman, say, strippers, are highly representative of this personality disorder, so there is some mutual attraction for different reasons. Women who go for 'bad boys' demonstrate another of these unhealthy connections.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6095158 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Am I just wasting my time by lamenting in this post?"

I do not think that anyone here wants to seriously promote being a sociopath as a lifestyle choice, but I also agree that rendering black and white moral judgements is a waste of time and energy. Everything should be evaluated case by case based on practicality.


I completely agree with you.
You walk around a corner, and there is a semi-conscious person up against a brick wall. Another person is slapping that individual's face repeatedly. In that moment one must assess (judge, discern, evaluate) what is happening. Is this an example of violence and relative evil, or is this an example of pure Compassion in keeping a drug-overdosed individual painfully conscious until paramedics arrive? The same physical force, the same resultant pain - completely different Intention (Will).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6095284 -

psilocyberin said:
"If you limit your choices only to what seems possible or reasonable, you disconnect yourself from what you truly want, and all that is left is a compromise."
Robert Fritz


That is a powerful quote. I hope I take that advice soon.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6095610 -

One telling moral people that they are living wrong and that their amoral way is a better way to live, is no different then another, who says the same thing in reverse.

If you tell someone their living wrongly or that your way is better, you've made a moral judgment. This is exactly how amoralists do not view things. I think it's more like: The amoralist telling people morality doesn't exist and the moralist saying morality does exist.

It seems to be more of a question of whether morality is an objective concept. The moralist would argue that a higher-being has designated certain things as right and wrong, or that there are universal traits in humans that determine right or wrong actions. (The last argument is called the 'naturalistic fallacy.' It is often employed by Utilitarians.) The amoralist would argue that there is no higher-being or universal traits in man, and consequentially, morality has no objective grounding. To an amoralist, what seems to be right or wrong is a matter of preference.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6095618 -

Good post. And as usual Mushman.  :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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