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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Why should I behave morally?
    #10664264 -

Let's assume that I'm interested in maximizing my happiness and minimizing my suffering during my time here on Earth.  If presented with a situation wherein behaving immorally (stealing, lying, cheating, raping, murdering, etcetera) would be to my benefit and there was no chance of getting caught, are there any compelling reasons why I shouldn't do so?

I can't think of any.  Note that when I refer to immoral actions here I am referring to things that are commonly and currently agreed to be evil, which are typically things that increase suffering.  I am not implying the existence of an objective morality.  Doing something that you personally think is wrong would not necessarily be to your benefit if you feel guilt after performing the deed; this thought experiment is instead about things that most members of society would conceive as being immoral and that you yourself would have no qualms about performing.

Now, I wholeheartedly support other people in their quest to remain morally upstanding and righteous citizens; after all, who would want others to do evil to them?  However I can see no benefit to adhering to ethical principles if doing so is disadvantageous or if behaving immorally yields positive consequences.  Your thoughts?

Edit: Some say that we should use Compassion as the basis for morality; we should see ourselves in the other person and treat them like we would treat ourselves.  My question is why?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664304 -

Profile of the Sociopath

This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.


    * Glibness and Superficial Charm

    * Manipulative and Conning
      They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

    * Grandiose Sense of Self
      Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

    * Pathological Lying
      Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

    * Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
      A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

    * Shallow Emotions
      When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

    * Incapacity for Love

    * Need for Stimulation
      Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

    * Callousness/Lack of Empathy
      Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

    * Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
      Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

    * Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
      Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

    * Irresponsibility/Unreliability
      Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

    * Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
      Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

    * Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
      Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

    * Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
      Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Other Related Qualities:

  1. Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
  2. Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
  3. Authoritarian
  4. Secretive
  5. Paranoid
  6. Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
  7. Conventional appearance
  8. Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
  9. Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
  10. Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
  11. Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
  12. Incapable of real human attachment to another
  13. Unable to feel remorse or guilt
  14. Extreme narcissism and grandiose
  15. May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664325 -

Well, if everyone stole from each other, it would get pretty chaotic and cutthroat, and probably NOT advantageous for the vast majority. If you're the alpha male of such a game, then you'd have nothing to fear.

If everyone were to lie to each other when it was advantageous, it seems a downward spiral could ensure. Person A lies to person B because it was more advantageous than the truth. Person B then spreads this lie to person C, D, and E. Now the lie has spread from 1 person to 4. Depending on the lie, it could be disadvantageous to all 4 of those people, while only 1 person gained. Not a very good ratio on the whole of humanity. And if everyone were doing that, you've got 4:1 odds of being in the shit on category.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: Kickle]
    #10664337 -

Sure, if everyone behaves immorally then everything goes to complete shit.  However, the majority of people do not generally behave immorally and this allows the few that do behave immorally to survive.  It's almost like a predator/prey relationship; a completely virtuous society would be easy pickings for a few con artists but a completely evil society would utterly disintegrate.  Evil requires Good and Good is naturally susceptible to Evil.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: Existence]
    #10664342 -

Lol, I love this forum. Someone says something retarded and everyone else diagnoses his problems.
Personally I say fuck morality(in a purely Oscar Wilde way) it's no fun :grin:.


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Experimental Paradise

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: Existence]
    #10664362 -

There is no such thing as morals to me, only the best way to benefit myself and those around me. Nobody can tell me the best way to do this I have to figure it out for myself and not worry too much if I slip up occasionally. Fortunately what truly benefits myself also tends to benefit those around me through a ripple effect.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664376 -

deCypher said:
Sure, if everyone behaves immorally then everything goes to complete shit.  However, the majority of people do not generally behave immorally and this allows the few that do behave immorally to survive.  It's almost like a predator/prey relationship; a completely virtuous society would be easy pickings for a few con artists but a completely evil society would utterly disintegrate.  Evil requires Good and Good is naturally susceptible to Evil.



Those are my motivations for behaving morally. I'd rather encourage it not go to shit, than to encourage it to go to shit. Implications of what would happen if everyone followed my lead, what kind of lead would I want them to follow.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: Kickle]
    #10664402 -

I suppose acting immorally does help contribute to the downfall of society.  However, I am not society and those immoral actions do benefit me as an individual.  Also this thought experiment assumes that you won't get caught: presumably nobody would know that you had behaved immorally and therefore they couldn't follow your lead.

Grapefruit said:
There is no such thing as morals to me, only the best way to benefit myself and those around me. Nobody can tell me the best way to do this I have to figure it out for myself and not worry too much if I slip up occasionally. Fortunately what truly benefits myself also tends to benefit those around me through a ripple effect.


Right on.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664429 -

Then we go from external reason to internal.
If you gain no moral satisfaction from doing good, and only enjoy fulfilling the pleasure principle, I suppose nothing. Like Grapefruit said, I find that when I act in accordance with my own beliefs, it positively benefits those around me. If your beliefs revolve around a pleasure principle, and you're achieving the actualization of such beliefs, it will probably manifest in positive ways to those around you.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: Kickle]
    #10664445 -

Slightly off-topic but is happiness necessarily synonymous with pleasure?  It seems that if one fully invests one's belief in the pleasure principle then the only logical thing to do would be to stick an electrode in your pleasure center and crank up the juice for the rest of your life.  Yet somehow this doesn't sound very satisfying... (although I bet your opinion would change once you had tried it.)


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664459 -

I believe happiness is more synonymous with fulfillment myself.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: Kickle]
    #10664465 -

How are you defining fulfillment?  Happiness is a bugger to conceptually analyze.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664498 -

deCypher said:
Let's assume that I'm interested in maximizing my happiness and minimizing my suffering during my time here on Earth.  If presented with a situation wherein behaving immorally (stealing, lying, cheating, raping, murdering, etcetera) would be to my benefit and there was no chance of getting caught, are there any compelling reasons why I shouldn't do so?


off the top of my head... respect?

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deranger]
    #10664508 -

Why should I have respect/compassion/empathy for others?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664516 -

you shouldn't... it's a choice.  if you choose not to have respect for others, that is not a sign of happiness in these here ears.  but one man's happiness is another man's depression, so really none of this really makes any sense, sort of.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deranger]
    #10664647 -

If you commit wrongful acts on others it incurs a likelihood of incurring wrongful acts upon yourself. You see, I personally as a normal morality type have obvious qualms about killing someone and hiding the body. If someone in my family or friends declared this person to be their rapist/murderer you can assume that a large amount of these qualms would be eliminated and I would loose my disinterest in killing them (you).

In fact this is the fundamental basis of the rule of law. Sometimes people of a profession are held to scruples that eliminate the possibilities of corrupt practices, because they discredit their profession. In these cases the profession often excommunicates such individuals. So there are repercussions and you cannot always assume you won't get caught or your actions won't otherwise come back to haunt you.

You may think your getting a free lunch nipping at the universe but it will eventually smack you down or turn around and bite your fuckin head off. It's the law of karma or so I'm told.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deranger]
    #10664667 -

In my experience, it's not just a choice, it's a logical choice because you will profit out of it the most. You need to live according to certain rules if you want to achieve your goals.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664686 -

"However I can see no benefit to adhering to ethical principals...".  Some people view morality as some uncool person trying to stop their fun.  Like a child that wants to play in the puddles in the road, but their Parent won't let them. Morality is kind of a check valve, for positive mental health.  If you choose to do mean and hurtful things, it affects you in ways you can not conceive. It affects the way you treat people, and treat yourself.  It affects your attitude and perception. People that don't steal, murder,lie, have a healthier state of mind that completely benefits that person.

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10664810 -

deCypher said:
How are you defining fulfillment?  Happiness is a bugger to conceptually analyze.



Attaining one's goals, when the goals are based on an inner drive; i.e. pleasure


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Why should I behave morally? [Re: deCypher]
    #10665042 -

Morals are culturally defined. If the culture encouraged grandmothers to bludgeon newborns with rolling pins to control the population. Grandmothers would be bragging about their swing and showing off the blood stains on their rolling pins. Morals mean nothing. DO what is practical for you.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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