zen buddy said:

Are you actually trying to compare doctors of Western medicine to shamans? Well, since you brought it up...

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In order for a human being to become a doctor they have to first be recognized by their peers in the medical community. You cannot just decide to become a doctor and then all of a sudden claim to be a doctor, you have to earn this title.

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There are thousands of doctors in the world who have taken the necessary courses, read the necessary books and passed the appropriate exams, yet they fail completely in the real world.

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How good of a doctor you are is determined by your patients and by your peers in the medical community and not by yourself.

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As there is no official school or degree for a shaman, the only people that we can accept as deserving this title are the ones who have the approval of their community.

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Even though you just stated that the medical community could be wrong.
Never forgetting that it is never possible for members of the community receiving medical treatments to be wrong.
Not to mention that you just supported very ably the position that no official school or degree for being a doctor makes a doctor.

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A true shaman does not need recognition in order to do what they do.

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Who said a question of need was even relevant? Sometimes accepting the title of the work you perform can actually be a good thing. That's why doctors do it. They nod and say "Yes ma'am, I'm a doctor.".
I see absolutely no reason why it makes any sense to think that it somehow makes sense for someone who performs a certain task should never identify themselves as being a do-er of said task.
I wonder how the Yellow Pages would be if no professional ever claimed themselves to be that kind of professional. Are you just supposed to start dialing from random names, or what?
Perhaps the community will ensure that word gets out of one's business so that they can survive?

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It is very possible for someone to fulfill the role without wearing the title.

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Indeed. Not very practical, however, when one wants to actually support one's existence with the job that said title goes, quite naturally, with.

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When an individual announces to a room that he or she is a shaman there's a good chance that they are doing this for their own selfish, personal gain.

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If the individual is truly a shaman this fact would become obvious so there would be no need for a shaman to announce what he or she is to the room.

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So what your saying is that a doctor who has self-pride and loves to identify himself as being a doctor and make it openly known to others is somehow negating his actual duties and skills of being a doctor by doing so?

No, duh, being a doctor is judged on the merits of being a doctor. It isn't determined by what people think of the doctor. Its about him actually being able to act and perform as a doctor.

Its no different with a shaman, dude. In fact, I'd think it is safe to say that a shaman, in more primitive times, was a doctor. Also, the fact that shamans existed then doesn't mean that people can't be shamans now and consider or announce themselves to be shamans. Just the same as carpenters.
The tools just change over time.

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A shaman plays an important role as a spiritual healer and because there is no degree that someone can present as evidence, it is very true in this case that actions speak louder than words.

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In fact, when someone claims to be a shaman before it is obvious they make it more likely that they will never be accepted as a shaman.

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Never being accepted only by those who think it is the Law of the Jungle to never self-identify with the fact that they are an identity who is performing specific tasks. Brighter people will realize that self-identity issues lie separate from ability to perform the specific, objective tasks of a given profession.
I don't think very many people would care if their heart surgeon was a cross-dresser after he performed triple-bypass surgery on them.
"What?! You just told me that you were a great doctor for saving my life?! You selfish bastard! You're 'less' of a doctor because of that!" Riiiiight.

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and yes, these are my own personal thoughts on the subject.

The credibility is in the fact that it makes sense.

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No, the credibility lies in the question of whether or not your point of view on the matter is congruent with reality.
The fact that you think you are making sense doesn't mean it has any relevance to reality.


By the way, you never answered MT's question on what you consider a true shaman to be. You know, ignoring the question under the shoddy pretense that she is somehow really out of line for herself to ask you what you thought on the matter, while at the same time expressing how ridiculous she thought what you were saying was, really doesn't seem to make sense to me.  
Sorry, but people are free to feel that other people's statements are ridiculous, and it doesn't violate any sort of universal butt-hurt rule to express that to others. It is simply an opinion. If you want to cry and feel dramatic about it, then go right ahead. Just don't pretend she is out of line for asking you to clarify what you think on something in a debate forum, or to have fun with expressing her opinions of the statements ridiculousness.

If you can't answer her question or can't admit that you can't, you can always just admit it.

MushroomTrip said:

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As there is no official school or degree for a shaman, the only people that we can accept as deserving this title are the ones who have the approval of their community. A true shaman does not need recognition in order to do what they do. It is very possible for someone to fulfill the role without wearing the title.

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How can you be sure of what a shaman needs or doesn't? Doesn't it strike you as odd to make such strong appreciations?
I do agree that it is very possible for someone to fulfill a role without wearing the title, but this in no way means that, if one is assuming and self-proclaiming a role, they aren't actually in that role, and that it is all a facade.
What is a real shaman? It is a question that I kept asking you and you refused to answer, saying that I am being a hypocrite, when in fact, by answering this question, you could have explained your POV and why you think a "real" shaman would never speak of themselves as being a shaman.
What makes you think that a shaman wouldn't need recognition? Don't you think it's a logical fallacy to automatically consider someone malevolent and an impostor, simply because they need the appreciation of those around them? How does the first lead to the latter?

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When an individual announces to a room that he or she is a shaman there's a good chance that they are doing this for their own selfish, personal gain.

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Since when does self-fulfillment come in contradiction with satisfying the needs of others?

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If the individual is truly a shaman this fact would become obvious so there would be no need for a shaman to announce what he or she is to the room.

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In which way, specifically, would this become an obvious fact?

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A shaman plays an important role as a spiritual healer and because there is no degree that someone can present as evidence, it is very true in this case that actions speak louder than words.

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Of course, but this doesn't mean that words are of no value, nor does it mean that, by saying those words, you're becoming a fake shaman.

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In fact, when someone claims to be a shaman before it is obvious they make it more likely that they will never be accepted as a shaman.

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Can you prove the verity of this assertion?

I could go on to debating whether or not shamans actually exist, but I won't do that as I can see how this rather vague term can have meaning in the actual reality, especially in one's consciousness and psyche. I can see how the archetypal initiation rite can apply to one's life when for example experiencing a personal crisis accompanied by personal transformation and growth, and I can think about a handful of situations and stages when, identifying themselves with the wounded healer, one can really need the appreciation of their family or community.
The fact that you see this thing though negative lenses doesn't mean that the situation itself is bad, deceitful, or that the people who claim they're shamans are impostors.

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Great post.

fireworks_god said:

By the way, you never answered MT's question on what you consider a true shaman to be.

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fireworks_god said:

zen buddy said:

Are you actually trying to compare doctors of Western medicine to shamans? Well, since you brought it up...

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Yes, it is an apt comparison, just as it would be to any other profession wherein the individual is a tradesmen and their services are called upon by others, such as carpenter or insurance salesman.

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In order for a human being to become a doctor they have to first be recognized by their peers in the medical community. You cannot just decide to become a doctor and then all of a sudden claim to be a doctor, you have to earn this title.

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Yet there are plenty of people out there who enjoy referring to themselves or fancying themselves as being doctors. Many doctors could be recognized by the medical community as being a doctor, but it doesn't mean they know anything about effectively being a doctor. So, clearly, with shamans, apparently it is possible to be a shaman that has earned the title, as well as to be a person who is not a shaman but likes to refer to themselves as being one, just the same as doctors.
Regarding doctors, as you said:

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There are thousands of doctors in the world who have taken the necessary courses, read the necessary books and passed the appropriate exams, yet they fail completely in the real world.

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So, right now, you're saying that it isn't taking courses, reading books, and passing exams that determines that you are a doctor, but then you go on to say...

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How good of a doctor you are is determined by your patients and by your peers in the medical community and not by yourself.

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Even though you just stated in plain English that what makes a doctor is the doctor themselves and their abilities of being a good doctor.

I hope you can see by now that these are completely contradictory statements, near immediately following each other.

Quote:

As there is no official school or degree for a shaman, the only people that we can accept as deserving this title are the ones who have the approval of their community.

---

Even though you just stated that the medical community could be wrong.
Never forgetting that it is never possible for members of the community receiving medical treatments to be wrong.
Not to mention that you just supported very ably the position that no official school or degree for being a doctor makes a doctor.

Quote:

A true shaman does not need recognition in order to do what they do.

---

Who said a question of need was even relevant? Sometimes accepting the title of the work you perform can actually be a good thing. That's why doctors do it. They nod and say "Yes ma'am, I'm a doctor.".
I see absolutely no reason why it makes any sense to think that it somehow makes sense for someone who performs a certain task should never identify themselves as being a do-er of said task.
I wonder how the Yellow Pages would be if no professional ever claimed themselves to be that kind of professional. Are you just supposed to start dialing from random names, or what?
Perhaps the community will ensure that word gets out of one's business so that they can survive?

Quote:

It is very possible for someone to fulfill the role without wearing the title.

---

Indeed. Not very practical, however, when one wants to actually support one's existence with the job that said title goes, quite naturally, with.

Quote:

When an individual announces to a room that he or she is a shaman there's a good chance that they are doing this for their own selfish, personal gain.

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Because being a shaman would imply that you were a human being that had to support your existence, and everyone knows it is so terrible for a human being to want to enjoy doing the work they most prefer while hopefully helping others, while, at the same time, continuing to live himself.

Quote:

If the individual is truly a shaman this fact would become obvious so there would be no need for a shaman to announce what he or she is to the room.

---

So what your saying is that a doctor who has self-pride and loves to identify himself as being a doctor and make it openly known to others is somehow negating his actual duties and skills of being a doctor by doing so?

No, duh, being a doctor is judged on the merits of being a doctor. It isn't determined by what people think of the doctor. Its about him actually being able to act and perform as a doctor.

Its no different with a shaman, dude. In fact, I'd think it is safe to say that a shaman, in more primitive times, was a doctor. Also, the fact that shamans existed then doesn't mean that people can't be shamans now and consider or announce themselves to be shamans. Just the same as carpenters.
The tools just change over time.

Quote:

A shaman plays an important role as a spiritual healer and because there is no degree that someone can present as evidence, it is very true in this case that actions speak louder than words.

---

They always do. Not very many bright people go back to a doctor that demonstrates that they don't know how to be a doctor. Same goes for home repairmen who completely fuck up their projects. Why should it be different for a shaman?

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In fact, when someone claims to be a shaman before it is obvious they make it more likely that they will never be accepted as a shaman.

---

Never being accepted only by those who think it is the Law of the Jungle to never self-identify with the fact that they are an identity who is performing specific tasks. Brighter people will realize that self-identity issues lie separate from ability to perform the specific, objective tasks of a given profession.
I don't think very many people would care if their heart surgeon was a cross-dresser after he performed triple-bypass surgery on them.
"What?! You just told me that you were a great doctor for saving my life?! You selfish bastard! You're 'less' of a doctor because of that!" Riiiiight.

Quote:

and yes, these are my own personal thoughts on the subject.

The credibility is in the fact that it makes sense.

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No, the credibility lies in the question of whether or not your point of view on the matter is congruent with reality.
The fact that you think you are making sense doesn't mean it has any relevance to reality.


By the way, you never answered MT's question on what you consider a true shaman to be. You know, ignoring the question under the shoddy pretense that she is somehow really out of line for herself to ask you what you thought on the matter, while at the same time expressing how ridiculous she thought what you were saying was, really doesn't seem to make sense to me.  
Sorry, but people are free to feel that other people's statements are ridiculous, and it doesn't violate any sort of universal butt-hurt rule to express that to others. It is simply an opinion. If you want to cry and feel dramatic about it, then go right ahead. Just don't pretend she is out of line for asking you to clarify what you think on something in a debate forum, or to have fun with expressing her opinions of the statements ridiculousness.

If you can't answer her question or can't admit that you can't, you can always just admit it.

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