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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9670930 -

fireworks_god said:
This is precisely what my main point was addressing: this idea of doing something "expected" of them by a "materialistic society". I see no evidence of any expectation and feel that this is manifesting from the personal psychology of those in question, which is what I was speculating on.



Personal psychology is undoubtedly influenced by other factors, so to say that an expectation manifests from the person seems to cut the person off from reality. It's clearly very self-empowering to realize that a person can take control of the way he thinks and feels, yet this can only come after he or she understands why he thinks and feels this way.

Maybe it seems like I'm anthropomorphizing Society, but I'm referring to the very human expectations I have been subject to. My parents ignored their own contentment as well as my own in pursuit of following a societal path toward a high-paying job, believing even in the face of dissatisfaction and withdrawal that this path was more right than the discontentment. There was no argument, only threats, pressures and anger that things weren't proceeding as planned, and what disgusted me the most was the attempt at taking the high road in believing discontentment to be a mere psychological stage of development, hormonal and deluded rather than a true response to reality.

Institutions of marriage, education, economy, and politics are not in themselves vindictive tyrants, but the people desperate to follow the rules do affect other people, and, as these institutions are omnipresent, we may say that they have a societal effect. Else we could have just become psychologically actuated in the Dark Ages and would have needed no institutional change. 

When I say the system, I refer to the predominant institution of holding together a country or community. In the past, the system may have been the tribe, the monarchy, the Party and so on, but now this system seems to be chiefly economic. There are other interrelated systems, yet most of the largest are subsidiary to financial concerns. Governments and social and fiscal policies shape countries and the people within them - what they do with their time, what they must do, what they feel is important.

You are right to encourage the ultimate freedom of the individual from the institution or the system, but I believe that its effects should not and cannot be trivialized; any environment less prone to blindered rule-following is more likely to foster a healthy personal psychology.

Quote:
I don't think I've ever seen myself as being begrudged for earning money or for purchasing objects.



My mistake, then. What makes you think that societal critics more often than not are envious of success?


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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9671102 -

I'm not anything for consumer mania and living your live by materials...

but there is some expensive stuff out there that is pretty damn cool, not just because it's expensive, but because it's just actually sweet. Theres also some material stuff out there that entails an artist to more easily create their art, like them new macbooks.

I meditated on 2012 and technology alot. Because many people seem to think 2012 will mark some end of technology. I came to the conclusion that, the thing that will manage to push technology through into the future is artists using it to create good art that is a true expression of the divine.

If technology is used for that, then technology will become a timeless component of humanity.

Edited by rygoody (01/24/09 01:42 PM)

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: zannennagara]
    #9687384 -

Sorry it took so long to reply, but I spent my Shroomery time the last two days in another debate. :grin:

zannennagara said:
Personal psychology is undoubtedly influenced by other factors, so to say that an expectation manifests from the person seems to cut the person off from reality.

Maybe it seems like I'm anthropomorphizing Society, but I'm referring to the very human expectations I have been subject to. My parents ignored their own contentment as well as my own in pursuit of following a societal path toward a high-paying job, believing even in the face of dissatisfaction and withdrawal that this path was more right than the discontentment. There was no argument, only threats, pressures and anger that things weren't proceeding as planned, and what disgusted me the most was the attempt at taking the high road in believing discontentment to be a mere psychological stage of development, hormonal and deluded rather than a true response to reality.



I'm not denying that personal psychology is influenced by other factors, and I was never excluding it when I referred to it resulting from personal psychology. My point was that I did not see this expectation as an aspect of "materialistic" society itself, but rather, as you point out with the example of your parents, the result of their personal psychology. From that, for an individual to think that this represents an expectation of society itself is only a manifestation of their own personal psychology - affected by those who were acting with this expectation.

Ultimately, my point was that I do not feel it is accurate to express that this is an aspect of society itself - only the psychology of some people who make up society. It isn't an inherent trait of society itself, and I don't believe that the way economy or government or etc. is orientated is responsible for this occurence.

Quote:
Institutions of marriage, education, economy, and politics are not in themselves vindictive tyrants, but the people desperate to follow the rules do affect other people, and, as these institutions are omnipresent, we may say that they have a societal effect.



Yes, I agree that any effect people have on others could be described as a societal effect. Describing this effect as inherent within society itself, or superimposing one's limited experience with those around them onto society itself, I do not agree with (not saying you were doing this).

Quote:
My mistake, then. What makes you think that societal critics more often than not are envious of success?



Well, it would depend on what exactly regarding it they are criticizing. Like I said originally, the generalization was mostly a device for the purpose of sparking discussion. I couldn't use a generalization to explain all or "most" people's behavior, since the only way to make reasonable assumptions regarding their behavior would be to review it on a case-by-case basis. Of course, I'm sure there are some people who fit within the generalization, as I'm sure there are some people who don't reject anything about materialism or society itself, but rather simply the effect that certain people who create suffering in their pursuit of obtaining something material.
The idea that most are jealous, envious, or feeling incomplete from not having some status or object is nothing more than an unsubstantiated feeling. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9693190 -

fireworks_god said:
adjust said:
A person in a higher position is rewarded with less stress, which generally means you will be healthier



Are you proposing this as a rule, or more as a tendency? As someone who considers oneself to be pretty aware of psychology, or, at the very least, my own psychology, I see stress as resulting from internal states, and not the external circumstances we are responding to with these internal states. 

bradley said:
Right, I read the first couple sentences and thought, man, I'm just going to I will just refer him to Orwell's rules of writing:

http://www.pickthebrain.com/blog/george-orwells-5-rules-for-effective-writing/



I skimmed these rules and pretty much shrugged them off. One of the best reasons why I did this is due to this following statement:

Quote:
Ineffective language weakens and distorts ideas.



This is exactly why I would not opt for deconstructing my syntax. The point to which one simplifies one's expression of one's ideas is subjectively determined by the nature of the ideas themselves and the specific form the thought processes have. As I'm not writing something that is targeted to the lowest common denominator, I do not feel it is necessary to sacrifice my intended point by stripping it of its meaning.
To do so would be to use ineffective language, and that wouldn't make George Orwell very happy. :tongue:




         
  Emptiness…The shiver of cold.  All dressed…all dead… does not give the feeling. Envy… It is all about size or the lack of it… Like size 0.  Everything goes round and round feasting on self esteem… and then fake beauty.  Envy is just a big slab in the chain.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: Recondicom]
    #9696481 -

Is this thread confusing materialism with consumerism?


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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: learningtofly]
    #9698893 -

learningtofly said:
Is this thread confusing materialism with consumerism?



          It would be a long essay:  ‘the separation of materialism and consumerism’. The second Punic war started when the senators from Rome received the news from Carthage:  Their grapes were bigger and juicer…- War, they screamed. Rome won the war and then proceeded to dump large quantities of salt on the fertile fields of Carthage.  However, I was entertaining the idea of envy regardless. The Greeks had the Goddesses Fortuna and Nemesis. Flaunting your good fortune/ hubris could attract Nemesis.
      Perhaps we are talking about the education of Fortuna or whether envy dresses up with the garments of the non-materialistic.  An axiom of comprehension: I could assign active envy to a subset of the non- materialistic… or not.
    I’m pondering whether “generalization as in original post”  is not a discussion of any of the above but a discussion of prejudice. There… I said it.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: Recondicom]
    #9700121 -

huh? Materialism is that the only thing that can be proven to exist is matter. Consumerism is buying stuff = happiness.


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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: learningtofly]
    #9701876 -

learningtofly said:
huh? Materialism is that the only thing that can be proven to exist is matter. Consumerism is buying stuff = happiness.



    Materialistic society and their toys’
IMO the original post makes reference to economic materialism. Consumerism is somewhat different terminology not mentioned until…
Bernackums said:
    “There are many people out there who feel that owning something makes it apart of them, or at least their ego, and are driven to buy more and better things because of this. This is a life I see all over the place; people clinging to the empty satisfaction of consumerism. I agree with the OP, and feel this is another contributor.”


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9713522 -

fireworks_god said:
Sorry it took so long to reply, but I spent my Shroomery time the last two days in another debate. :grin:




And I've had almost no computer time during this week, so I'm sorry for my delay...

Quote:
I'm not denying that personal psychology is influenced by other factors, and I was never excluding it when I referred to it resulting from personal psychology. My point was that I did not see this expectation as an aspect of "materialistic" society itself, but rather, as you point out with the example of your parents, the result of their personal psychology. From that, for an individual to think that this represents an expectation of society itself is only a manifestation of their own personal psychology - affected by those who were acting with this expectation.

Ultimately, my point was that I do not feel it is accurate to express that this is an aspect of society itself - only the psychology of some people who make up society. It isn't an inherent trait of society itself, and I don't believe that the way economy or government or etc. is orientated is responsible for this occurence.



Our difference here seems to be one of phraseology rather than conceptual understanding. Responsibility can be delimited within each individual and analyzed as one's awareness of one's own personal psychology. The phrasing of this is self-empowering and enables each person to identify and overcome potential popular neuroses.

Again, though, I question the separation of personal psychology from society. I find that the psychology of some people who make up society, particularly when these people have enormous influence,  defines to a large extent that society. You say you don't deny that personal psychology is influenced by other factors, but then you say that the expectation stems from personal psychology. The question is where this particular personal psychology comes from - you seem to phrase this as passing from individual to individual, but a large collection of individuals passing similar things, to me, defines a society, so whether we refer to this as inherent to society or inherent to personal psychology is a choice between two views of the same thing.

Society is a helpful term to describe a general trend of personal psychology and its effects. Many novel studies took place a few decades ago that demonstrated remarkable psychological changes upon people who were placed within the confines of a particular institutional relationship with each other. Ultimately each individual's personal psychology was responsible, yet in most cases it drastically shifted to match the designed structure: this societal structure came to define the personal psychology, which perpetuated the societal structure.

I think you are correct to say that I am superimposing my experience onto society itself - though again this phraseology is strange to me, as my experience within this society defines my experience of society - but as you note yourself this is far from novel to my experience. Indeed the connection of my perceptions with those of others - artists, peers, intellectuals, critics - strengthens the perceptions and makes my experience far less limited.

You offer a well-reasoned viewpoint that is rarer to me, a treasure, giving a wake-up-call to those who find themselves powerless in their situation. Many have said that individual work comes before societal, and that is probably true, and the "societal effect" I'm talking about is the result of such work. Many of us are in an ugly psychological zone that fosters negative aspects of society (to which we are inherent), and by recognizing these aspects we can go to work on ourselves and each other.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9715857 -

Quote:
I have the feeling that the vast majority of people who harp on about society and how it values those with shiny, expensive objects are so concerned about this and feel so conflicted about this themselves, not because the "problem" is something so inherent and troublesome within society itself (evidenced by the people who simply aren't concerned about this, live their own life as they wish, and don't pay the possible phenomenon any mind), but because they themselves feel an emotional sting of jealousy and resentment for not having these things themselves, or the status and prestige that is supposedly associated with ownership of these things. 



I think the vast majority of people are completely entranced by consumer culture, regardless of being divided into an in group that possesses these shiny, expensive objects and an out group that feels resentment and jealousy for not having these things themselves. 

Are there people that simply aren't concerned with this, live their own life as they wish, and don't pay the possible phenomenon any mind?  I doubt it man, I think those who live their own lives as they wish are introspective enough to become aware of the psychodynamics of consumerism and turn on to higher states of consciousness.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (02/01/09 04:53 AM)

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #9722132 -

Quote:
What do you think?



I think blaming the problems of Western society as resulting from materialism is a one-dimensional attempt to account for the unhappiness or imbalance that is perceived in one particular system. A more acute model of explanation (or bitching) would revolve more around human nature and the limits of the mind, rather than the byproducts that those maladies confer.

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: Arden]
    #9722184 -

CosmicJoke said:
Are there people that simply aren't concerned with this, live their own life as they wish, and don't pay the possible phenomenon any mind?  I doubt it man, I think those who live their own lives as they wish are introspective enough to become aware of the psychodynamics of consumerism and turn on to higher states of consciousness.



I think you misunderstood my statement. The key aspect of it regarding its meaning is the phrase "possible phenomenon", which was referring to the idea that society values those with shiny, expensive objects more, to quote the earlier aspect of my post that the phrase "possible phenomenon" was standing in for. It wasn't referring to people not being concerned with or not paying any mind to consumerism itself when it is observed, but rather the idea that society values those who hold to consumerism more. Society isn't something that can value anything in this regard IMO.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Edited by fireworks_god (02/02/09 12:14 PM)

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: zannennagara]
    #9722256 -

zannennagara said:
I find that the psychology of some people who make up a society, particularly when these people have enormous influence,  defines to a large extent that society. You say you don't deny that personal psychology is influenced by other factors, but then you say that the expectation stems from personal psychology. The question is where this particular personal psychology comes from - you seem to phrase this as passing from individual to individual, but a large collection of individuals passing similar things, to me, defines a society, so whether we refer to this as inherent to a society or inherent to personal psychology is a choice between two views of the same thing.



In order to illustrate precisely where we are conflicting in viewpoint, I thought I'd get a little creative by affirming certain qualifiers in your expression with bold, and expressing qualifiers I felt lacking in other areas with italics (underlined to increase visibility :tongue:), in order to bring parts of your statement into accordance with the qualifiers (in bold) you yourself placed in other areas.

Do you see what my point is? If you look to the first a that I placed, referring to "society" in the way your context did implies "the society". I agree with all of your points on how "society" can be a helpful term to describing general trends of the personal psychology of individuals interacting with and influencing the personal psychology of others, but I do not agree with most any usage of the definite article of the term (i.e. the society), as it is nothing more than a baseless generalization created by superimposing one's assumptions regarding one's experience of part of that society. Maybe it would be more effective to speak of one's personal society?

Anyways, you're definitely right that our difference in opinion is really only a difference in how the ideas are being phrased, but the reason why I hold that difference is because one's personal society is not society itself, and I think it is necessary to make the distinction between the two for the sake of the validity of one's own ideas. Otherwise, one is intentionally or unintentionally speaking of society as a whole, and most any assumption regarding society as a whole is baseless and unsubstantiated. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: learningtofly]
    #9722270 -

learningtofly said:
Is this thread confusing materialism with consumerism?



The thread itself isn't, but the people making the statements that this thread was referring to are probably confusing the two. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: learningtofly]
    #9722295 -

learningtofly said:
huh? Materialism is that the only thing that can be proven to exist is matter. Consumerism is buying stuff = happiness.



          Searching for free will.
    In reading the great minds I agree with the idea that:  “for the ordinary surroundings of life which are esteemed by men (as their actions testify) to be the highest good, may be classed  under the three heads- Riches, Fame ,and the pleasures of Sense”.
    Naturally, if this economic materialism is a deterministic action, it could be found as well in the laws of nature.
      1 pumpkin + 1 pumpkin  = 2 pumpkins:  However, If 1 pumpkin is 900lbs and another is 1lb the sum of them will be 901 lbs.  if 1 pumpkin is 2 lbs and another is 3 lbs then 2 pumpkins are 5 lbs. I see a problem with volume and weight.  Frequency and amplitude will resonate to our freedom to choose whether to set aside energy to pursue free will.
      When we look at the making of matter, there are differences in many of the particles.  A 900 lbs photon and a 1 lb photon would have the quality of (pumpkin/photon) but will be different… and so will be the nature of awareness and the course of Creation. This idea permeates to all of matter.  The idea of perfection;  The idea of star;  a different energy of being… the nature of which may just be another form of determinism… or not. Christ; buddhahood, Free Will.
    Logical 1: Determinism
    Logical 0: Free will
    Logical AND: Both
    Logical NOR: Neither
    Logical all:  Different percentages for logical all. Change is the constant and therefore it permeates the nature of what seems absolute logic. Four rivers… four gates… Our reality is in the flow of DNA… or not. The search for Time.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Materialistic Society And Their Toys [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9724293 -

Quote:
not because the "problem" is something so inherent and troublesome within society itself (evidenced by the people who simply aren't concerned about this, live their own life as they wish, and don't pay the possible phenomenon any mind),




I read "possible phenomenon" as your attempt to cast doubt on the ideas about reality of those who fanatically harp on about consumerism.  I was attempting to view those completely caught up in the web of consumerism, the fanatics, and those who live freely through a continuum that recognizes their respective stages of psychological evolution.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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