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Pulsating
Björk's Disciple

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 266
Loc: Space & Time

Re: Questions for materialists

[Re: FrenchSocialist]
#7027845 - 06/09/07 09:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

FrenchSocialist said:

Well if they can evolve then intelligence isn't necessary. If intelligence isn't necessary I don't see how it is implied. Intelligence depends on the existence of patterns, not the other way around.

Ummm....so what is causing the evolution to take place? It's an intelligence who knows exactly what it is doing (even if it sometimes hides its motives from itself).

And patterns are *meaningless* without life there to take a look at it and formulate it around, make sense of it and, yes, add the meaning.

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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." ― Plato

"I communicate, therefore I am" - I

"Nature is ancient, but surprises us all." - Björk

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FrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months

Re: Questions for materialists

[Re: Pulsating]
#7027973 - 06/09/07 09:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Natural selection and variations within population cause evolution to take place.

And while patterns may be meaningless without life, that does not mean their existence is dependent on life.

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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Pulsating
Björk's Disciple

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 266
Loc: Space & Time

Re: Questions for materialists

[Re: FrenchSocialist]
#7028021 - 06/09/07 09:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

FrenchSocialist said:

Natural selection and variations within population cause evolution to take place.

And while patterns may be meaningless without life, that does not mean their existence is dependent on life.

So, in your estimation, everything that has ever happened, is happening and will ever happen has its beginnings in matter and energy?

My view is this: There are two "lifes" we are dealing with; biological life (as displayed *in* Matter/Energy/Space Time) and Thought/Life which is *outside* Matter/Energy/Space/Time and is responsible for the biological lifeforms on Earth (and possibly elsewhere).

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FrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months

Re: Questions for materialists

[Re: Pulsating]
#7028049 - 06/09/07 10:06 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

It's not my preferred estimation, it is the most coherent and parsimonious estimation. At least given what we currently know.

--------------------

"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Pulsating
Björk's Disciple

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 266
Loc: Space & Time

Re: Questions for materialists

[Re: FrenchSocialist]
#7028137 - 06/09/07 10:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

FrenchSocialist said:

It's not my preferred estimation, it is the most coherent and parsimonious estimation. At least given what we currently know.

Look around your room and find an object that illustrates how the "right elements" accidentally combine and said object came into being without some life force there to create/design/build it. Let me know what it is when you find it.

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FrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months

Re: Questions for materialists

[Re: Pulsating]
#7028154 - 06/09/07 10:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Pulsating said:

FrenchSocialist said:

It's not my preferred estimation, it is the most coherent and parsimonious estimation. At least given what we currently know.

Look around your room and find an object that illustrates how the "right elements" accidentally combine and said object came into being without some life force there to create/design/build it. Let me know what it is when you find it.

I just did. My dog. He was born, not created or designed or built. And there's also some water.

--------------------

"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Pulsating
Björk's Disciple

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 266
Loc: Space & Time

Re: Questions for materialists

[Re: FrenchSocialist]
#7028177 - 06/09/07 10:47 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

FrenchSocialist said:

Pulsating said:

FrenchSocialist said:

It's not my preferred estimation, it is the most coherent and parsimonious estimation. At least given what we currently know.

Look around your room and find an object that illustrates how the "right elements" accidentally combine and said object came into being without some life force there to create/design/build it. Let me know what it is when you find it.

I just did. My dog. He was born, not created or designed or built. And there's also some water.

Well, you see, anything that exists HAD TO have been created at some point. And when things are "created" something had to create it.

I think the definitions you and I are using for some phenomena may be different.

So, a dog and some water are the only things in your room? At least the dog has something to drink.

But the simple fact that you gave me the answers you did, shows that you knew exactly my point and tried to dodge around it.

You mention your dog (and water) and then insist that it was neither designed, built, nor created...but your insistence doesn't really prove your point...it just means you insisted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9DVqTrKB24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKWXLi9X2c8

Edited by Pulsating (06/09/07 11:09 PM)

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