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Invisiblederanger
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992595 - 02/07/08 04:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes but just because you can see these limitations does not make you free. any televised americanized folk can see for a moment the limitations he is encased in, but that does not necessarily make him free. it does not necessarily set his awareness free.

my brothers tell me all the time that the amount of television they watch is just adding to their unawareness of their potential. yet they continue watching tv, like all of the other americanized puppets who think they are free just because they can think this.

the freedom i am talking about exists on many levels, many of which many are clueless of.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992623 - 02/07/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

OK, so define what type of "freedom" you are proposing.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992684 - 02/07/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

this type of freedom cannot be bound within definition, it cannot be fully grasped by a mere concept. it cannot be simply thought of. it has to be realized.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992693 - 02/07/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:rolleyes:  I thought as much.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992733 - 02/07/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, I think it's pretty clear to me what your ego does and does not understand.

Poid, personalisms are against the rules of this forum. That means you debate the issues being brought up, but you leave the people you're debating out of the debate.

This forum is about philosophy, not gossip. Please stick to the topic.

Consider this a formal warning.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblederanger
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Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992746 - 02/07/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

it is a shame you have to resort to such a petty retort.

it just goes to show the typical misunderstanding.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992759 - 02/07/08 05:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

it is a shame you have to resort to such a petty retort.

It seems to me to be the only kind of reply worthy of a refusal to provide a definition. :shrug:

What more can Veritas say when you refuse to even tell her what it is exactly that you are discussing?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblederanger
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Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992766 - 02/07/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

can all things be accurately described by a mere definition?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992768 - 02/07/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If they can be discussed, they can and must be defined. If you cannot define it, then she can't know what you're talking about. And so with nothing to talk about, her non-response seems perfectly appropriate.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblederanger
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992775 - 02/07/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i am talking about a freedom that can't be attained through conceptualization, only through experience.

what is so hard to understand about this?


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992784 - 02/07/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If you cannot define it, there is nothing to understand, hard or otherwise.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblederanger
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992798 - 02/07/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that is not the way things go, that is your opinion and your point of view.

can you understand ego death through definition?

or is it best understood through experience?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992808 - 02/07/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
that is not the way things go, that is your opinion and your point of view.

can you understand ego death through definition?

or is it best understood through experience?




In On Liberty, John Stuart Mill said something along the lines of, certain things cannot be properly understood without the aid of experience. Unfortunately, it is hard to transmit an experience over the internet. It's best to use words.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992809 - 02/07/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Ego death" is a conceptualization of experience, not experience itself.  If one wishes to discuss one's experiences, then it is necessary to conceptualize them.  When you refuse to define what you mean by "freedom," you end all possibility of discussion.  I said :rolleyes: because your response seemed like a cop-out.  If you KNOW what you mean, and KNOW that it is NOT what I am discussing, then you CAN define it.  :shrug:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7992810 - 02/07/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I already explained everything there was to explain, this will be a short reply because I am already losing interest in this subject.

Quote:

I didn't say all humans are cowards?




Saying "humans are cowards" without specifying the quantity points out to the general.

Quote:

The manner in which we each obtain love is indefatigably irrelevant to the fact that we need it. I wasn't intending to go into detail.




And I was trying to explain you that since our methods differ we have a conflict.

Quote:

What does the mind have to do with dicatorship? Regardless of what kind of mind you have, if you live in a dictatorship, you live in a dictatorship. A sin is a sin is a sin.......




A sin? :confused:

Quote:

On the fear subject, you fail to understand what I'm asking you. You say the opposite of fear is "Love, peace of mind, understanding (as in making use of reason and awareness).". Now, since they are opposites, they lie on opposite sides of a given spectrum. Given the spectrum of Good and Evil, which one would you place where?




Since I do mot sustain the idea of good and evil, I can't place either of them in any of those categories.
All of them are human and natural manifestation.
Lack of understanding (fear) is not evil, and in some cases it is the process of learning itself. In oder to learn there has to be something that is not understood. How can this be "evil"?

Quote:

Strictly good and strictly bad don't exist? Ever heard of God and Satan?




Ahhh and do those dudes exist? :lol:

Quote:

No, I think it's pretty clear to me what your ego does and does not understand.




Ok then.

Quote:

What does that have to do with an actual state of humanhood. Whatever implied, I never used the words actual state.




Quote:

im·ply      /ɪmˈplaɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-plahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -plied, -ply·ing.
1. to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated: His words implied a lack of faith.
2. (of words) to signify or mean.
3. to involve as a necessary circumstance: Speech implies a speaker.
4. Obsolete. to enfold.




Implying it is saying it with other words.

Quote:

But if everyone, or almost everyone, was fully human, or almost fully human, our perception on reality would be congruent, or almost congruent. As a result, we would all get along.




Yes, I just told you that if we were all aware and understanding and all the like we would probably get along.
But we don't due to that I earlier said:

"We are living and experience this life, each of us in different ways and sometimes we learn from the mistakes that we do, other times we don't. This can turn us into more sentient and conscious beings, or in even more restrictive beings.
So basically you're asking why can't everybody just get along. Well, because our perception upon reality differs, we all have our own rhythm of understanding and we're all in different phases of awareness. Life is just following its natural course, and we're doing the same thing."


Quote:

Would you publicly sing your favorite song, in front of a crowd of people?




This has nothing to do with the subject that's being discussed.
We're discussing ideas here, but yes, for your own curiosity I will answer this one time: yes I would.





Whether or not you retain your interest in this subject makes no difference to me in the world. I do, however, wish to respond for my own personal reasons, may I be allowed as much?







This is a Philosophy forum. To expect one to spell out every single detail of all their personal ideas is a little too much. Part of philosophy, in fact, a great deal of it involves asking questions, and making assertions that have symbolic meaning. When I say "humans are cowards", it's kind of a way for me of saying "I think, or I believe humans are cowards". I didn't intend to specify the quantity, and I would not defend or clarify my assertions at the mercy of others. If one does not understand, and/or do not wish to understand, that is merely one's loss, of whatever one may wish to call it.


Since when is this a conflict? What do you mean our manners differ, from what/whom? And when were we even talking about each other's manners of obtaining love?


A sin is a sin is a sin, a lie is a lie is a lie, a tomato is a tomato is a tomato. Why are you belittling me? Those just happen to be the choice of words I used to express a point.


"Since I do mot sustain the idea of good and evil, I can't place either of them in any of those categories.
All of them are human and natural manifestation.
Lack of understanding (fear) is not evil, and in some cases it is the process of learning itself. In oder to learn there has to be something that is not understood. How can this be "evil"?"
Good and Evil used as equivalents to negative and positive. Now place them.



Again, God and Satan used in a philosophical sense.




Did I even say I implied it? Now I'm going to make this clear; I didn't imply it, I didn't say it.


Why do you have to argue? Everything I say, you assume that I am attacking you or belittling you in some sort of way. I assure you, I am not. This thread was in no way, shape, or form, of any kind, supposed to be, or intended as a debate or an argument.



How do you know it has nothing to do with what's being discussed? You don't know why I asked that question, or what the follow-up might've been. We're discussing whatever is relevant to the original post, which was made by myself. Therefore, it is not up to you to decide what is relevant and what isn't, so long that it falls in the realm of Philosophy & Spirituality, or is explaining such assertions in that realm. Now that you've answered, let me ask you another question, whether or not you wish to answer though is up to you.

Would you walk EXTREMELY slowly in public?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992814 - 02/07/08 05:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This thread was in no way, shape, or form, of any kind, supposed to be, or intended as a debate or an argument.





Wrong forum.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992820 - 02/07/08 05:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Coward
one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity.




Cowardice is not about feeling fear, it is about what actions you take in response to your fear. One who knows that their ancient brain is triggering certain neurochemicals in reaction to a perceived threat, and can use their reason to choose a response in alignment with their values, IS free. Freedom is in the mind, in the exercise of our rational powers. No matter who cages us or enslaves us or penalizes us for breaking laws, we can remain free in our minds.





You are surprisingly dependant on empirical evidence to support your world view. Now, suppose that someday, these things prove to be false, what then?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992828 - 02/07/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Then I will have new evidence to incorporate into my worldview. Until then, I'll go with what is in evidence, rather than delusion, wishful thinking or illusion.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992833 - 02/07/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Then I will have new evidence to incorporate into my worldview. Until then, I'll go with what is in evidence, rather than delusion, wishful thinking or illusion.




I never said that it was wrong, I was just making a statement.
I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992834 - 02/07/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that is your opinion and your point of view.

You are stating the obvious. Or am I missing something?

can you understand ego death through definition?

Sure.

or is it best understood through experience?

On this point we agree, that it is BEST understood through experience, but that doesn't mean it can't be defined. Ego Death has a definition. So do other intangibles like love.

I can define a roller-coaster ride, but it is best understood by going for a ride. :yesnod:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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