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InvisiblePoid
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Society/Culture
    #7991373 - 02/07/08 11:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Since the dawn of human civilization, people have made complex social structures to preserve their way of life. Throughout history, what is moral and immoral changes, very often.

When can we stick to one set of postulates? Since we know that morality is subjective and changes about as often as the weather (minor exaggeration), when will we stop confining ourselves to evil paradigms? When others do things to try to change the evil paradigm, why do the rest put them down? Doesn't everybody realize that what we believe is just what our parents and society taught us? Why can't we let each other be free, why can't we leave each other alone? Why do we allow ourselves to be separated into competing groups, groups that have different ideals of morality, when it doesn't even matter what you believe in because you've just been basically brainwashed, conditioned, to believe it? Why have any strong-founded beliefs in anything? Are people so foolish as to think that they have it all right, even when they get proven wrong?

Why is sex and sexual desire such an important issue to people? What logic is behind any of the sexual morals today, and what logic is behind the sexual morals of the past? Is it even any logic at all, or is it all just based on the tradition that exists solely in the evil paradigm? They say we are rational beings, and I believe we are, but in an irrational manner. Those morals aren't morals, they're rules. Morals are rules.

In this, and I assume every other, society, there are legislative laws; rules that have to be followed no matter what, in order to preserve the stability of the given society. Then there are the other rules. Social "rules". Complex, subtle little rules that are not taught, but rather implicitly implied, through the observation of social behavior, and enforced by ridicule of those who do not follow. Technically, these rules to not have to be followed, but the consequences of not following those rules may be worse than that of breaking the law. Social ostracization, inherent prohibition from having sex, poverty, which all result in a severely insufficient amount of love, which everyone needs.

In other words, there is no such thing as freedom, no such thing at all. We behave as we ought to behave in order to not suffer consequences. There is no person that is free because we each fit a specific mold, a mold created by pre-school, elementary school, junior-high, high school, college, and the media. As a result of being used to being told exactly what to do, a dictatorship may be born.

These days, any dissidence can result in incarceration, whether is be peaceful or otherwise. Especially when you're young. If you don't fit the mold by the time you're in high school, something happens. Inherently, generally, if you don't fit the mold, you don't graduate. If you're not like the rest, they send you to Wilderness Camp (they actually do this where I live). If you've been using drugs, they send you to a "rehabilitation center", where they attempt to recondition you around peers your own age (I know, I went through it). And none of this is due to a direct act of legislation. There is no law that says that you have to follow a certain criteria.


In the end, we are just afraid.


Humans are disgraceful cowards.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (02/07/08 12:08 PM)


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OfflineRainman420
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7991405 - 02/07/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I know what you're saying. It's like our entire lives we have been told how to live, how to do this, that, everything. We learn from our parents and our culture how to behave in similar ways. That alone limits our personal boundaries. Why can't humans see that this is all a game and needs to be changed. But I think if they do change it then chaos would happen because the people that always do as they are told will not know how to handle true freedom. They will act foolishly and start wars. The government and its system is just to keep us in line basically.


--------------------
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7991475 - 02/07/08 12:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i was in a society once


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Rainman420]
    #7991485 - 02/07/08 12:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rainman420 said:
I know what you're saying. It's like our entire lives we have been told how to live, how to do this, that, everything. We learn from our parents and our culture how to behave in similar ways. That alone limits our personal boundaries. Why can't humans see that this is all a game and needs to be changed. But I think if they do change it then chaos would happen because the people that always do as they are told will not know how to handle true freedom. They will act foolishly and start wars. The government and its system is just to keep us in line basically.




Chaos is evil and only emerges from evil. If people were to re-realize, and actualize this re-realization, that they are being limited from becoming fully human, then they would revert to a natural state of humanhood. A state where you wish no harm on others, and you actually enjoy being around people, helping them and being helped. A state where you realize that all evil and wrongdoing caused by humans is itself a result of conditioning; we are conditioned to behave in a wrong manner, and we are also conditioned to accept this manner as right. The people that can't handle true freedom will be given a loving helping hand from the rest.

The government does keep is basically in line. When I was younger, I was taught that government is for the people, by the people. I was lied to, because in this society, deception is okay.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (02/07/08 12:53 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Cherk]
    #7991517 - 02/07/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
i was in a society once




I think you still are.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7991576 - 02/07/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

shit
how did you know that?

Im pretty sure im being slowly thrown out of this society
I don't know if Ill just die or take up shot-put with the hobos at
the naming convention


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Cherk]
    #7991587 - 02/07/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
shit
how did you know that?

Im pretty sure im being slowly thrown out of this society
I don't know if Ill just die or take up shot-put with the hobos at
the naming convention




You should take a journey to Mexico, on foot.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7991595 - 02/07/08 12:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'll leave the minute I find a worthy traveling companion
preferably it comes with a pussy
to hide things in
like my dick
and cracker jack rings


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Cherk]
    #7991607 - 02/07/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
I'll leave the minute I find a worthy traveling companion
preferably it comes with a pussy
to hide things in
like my dick
and cracker jack rings




Unless she is a real woman, the only thing some random chick can do for you on your journey is hold you back. It has to be like a true love kind of thing, you know?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7991610 - 02/07/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

its hard to find


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Cherk]
    #7991617 - 02/07/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
its hard to find




There's almost nothing harder.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7991694 - 02/07/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Since the dawn of human civilization, people have made complex social structures to preserve their way of life.




Yes, because it creates the feeling of safety, generated by the instinct of self preservation.

Quote:

When can we stick to one set of postulates? Since we know that morality is subjective and changes about as often as the weather (minor exaggeration), when will we stop confining ourselves to evil paradigms? When others do things to try to change the evil paradigm, why do the rest put them down? Doesn't everybody realize that what we believe is just what our parents and society taught us? Why can't we let each other be free, why can't we leave each other alone? Why do we allow ourselves to be separated into competing groups, groups that have different ideals of morality, when it doesn't even matter what you believe in because you've just been basically brainwashed, conditioned, to believe it? Why have any strong-founded beliefs in anything? Are people so foolish as to think that they have it all right, even when they get proven wrong?

Why is sex and sexual desire such an important issue to people? What logic is behind any of the sexual morals today, and what logic is behind the sexual morals of the past? Is it even any logic at all, or is it all just based on the tradition that exists solely in the evil paradigm? They say we are rational beings, and I believe we are, but in an irrational manner. Those morals aren't morals, they're rules. Morals are rules.




I have the feeling (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're asking all these questions without actually thinking about them.
In the moment we formulate a question, an explanation is already being born with it. It seems to me that you're not paying attention to the wholeness of your questions, and instead over flood your mind with similar questions until you reach an overwhelming feeling of revolt and you don't even know exactly against what. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Asking questions is good, it stands for progress. But as anything that's being abused, it loses its meaning.
To find an answer for all your questions, you have to keep a stable and lucid mind. You have to understand how the human mind works and reacts. That's your starting point.
It's easy to say why, why, why and point fingers, in fact... it is a form of escapism. Escaping from your own issues and confusions.
You don't need to look any further than yourself to find an answer for all your questions because you are human too. You, no matter how hard you're trying to convince yourself of the opposite, are no more different or special than anybody else.
I learned that, if my intention is to Know and not to complain, I can recreate in my mind, through my own perspective, all of these events issued by you.
So why ask why just for the sake of it?

The world is as it is and you have two options: you either accept it, or don't. If you don't accept it, the world will remain as it is but you will have a lot of negative and unexplained feelings towards it. That doesn't sound preferable, not for me anyways. I can be as mad and angry a I choose to be and I end up hurting myself when I could instead actually feel good. Which brings me to the second option: accepting. If you choose to accept the world as it is, it will still not change, but you will. Your understanding will. In the moment you stop feeling and acting like a victim, you start to see what's actually happening and what's making things be the way they are.
There is an explanation for anything and the fact you don't see it, means nothing more than that. The explanation still exists.
Everything, this life, this reality, is a chain of causes and effects, effects which will also turn into causes and so on.

Quote:

In this, and I assume every other, society, there are legislative laws; rules that have to be followed no matter what, in order to preserve the stability of the given society. Then there are the other rules. Social "rules". Complex, subtle little rules that are not taught, but rather implicitly implied, through the observation of social behavior, and enforced by ridicule of those who do not follow. Technically, these rules to not have to be followed, but the consequences of not following those rules may be worse than that of breaking the law. Social ostracization, inherent prohibition from having sex, poverty, which all result in a severely insufficient amount of love, which everyone needs.




Yes, I think that all of us here are aware of the existence of those rules.
But you are wrong about your conclusion.
We don't need the society to "love" us in order to feel happy. Can a society really love you? :lol: Its just an institution. :shrug: Can the school love you? Or the library?
This love that you're talking about is not really love, is the need for attention. The need to be confirmed that you are smart or liked or understood... appreciated for the qualities you may or may not have but you think you do. And that other's wont see in you, and that's how your inner conflict is born.
When you feel good with who you are and accept your current situation, others will like you too. That's how it works.

Quote:

In other words, there is no such thing as freedom, no such thing at all. We behave as we ought to behave in order to not suffer consequences. There is no person that is free because we each fit a specific mold, a mold created by pre-school, elementary school, junior-high, high school, college, and the media. As a result of being used to being told exactly what to do, a dictatorship may be born.




Freedom is just another word invented by the society you criticize so much.
What does freedom mean to you? Perhaps your understanding on it is wrong, because if by freedom you understand that you get to do whatever you want, without any form of consequence then you're right. Freedom doesn't exist.
But this way of thinking contradicts not only the man made rules, but the fundamental rules by which this nature works.
For example, you might want to throw a rock up in the air and your wish is for it to never fall back on the ground. But gravity pulls it back and it falls. Would you call that lack of freedom?
And you're also wrong about dictatorship. Dictatorship can be influenced by a situation like the one you described, by it is only born into a weak and fearsome mind.

Quote:

In the end, we are just afraid.


Humans are disgraceful cowards.




Both of these are human traits. But so is understanding or love or honesty...
You can't define humanity only with these two words, because you're really limiting yourself down.
Humans are much too complex to make such a definite statement.

Quote:

Chaos is evil and only emerges from evil.




Yeah?
And what exactly is evil?
Evil and chaos exist only in our minds. We see evil in things that we don't agree with or that make us feel fear.

Quote:

If people were to re-realize, and actualize this re-realization, that they are being limited from becoming fully human, then they would revert to a natural state of humanhood.




By this are you trying to imply that the actual state humanhood is artificial?
I totally disagree. It is as natural as it gets.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7991832 - 02/07/08 01:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

[quote
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Since the dawn of human civilization, people have made complex social structures to preserve their way of life.




Yes, because it creates the feeling of safety, generated by the instinct of self preservation.

Quote:

When can we stick to one set of postulates? Since we know that morality is subjective and changes about as often as the weather (minor exaggeration), when will we stop confining ourselves to evil paradigms? When others do things to try to change the evil paradigm, why do the rest put them down? Doesn't everybody realize that what we believe is just what our parents and society taught us? Why can't we let each other be free, why can't we leave each other alone? Why do we allow ourselves to be separated into competing groups, groups that have different ideals of morality, when it doesn't even matter what you believe in because you've just been basically brainwashed, conditioned, to believe it? Why have any strong-founded beliefs in anything? Are people so foolish as to think that they have it all right, even when they get proven wrong?

Why is sex and sexual desire such an important issue to people? What logic is behind any of the sexual morals today, and what logic is behind the sexual morals of the past? Is it even any logic at all, or is it all just based on the tradition that exists solely in the evil paradigm? They say we are rational beings, and I believe we are, but in an irrational manner. Those morals aren't morals, they're rules. Morals are rules.




I have the feeling (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're asking all these questions without actually thinking about them.
In the moment we formulate a question, an explanation is already being born with it. It seems to me that you're not paying attention to the wholeness of your questions, and instead over flood your mind with similar questions until you reach an overwhelming feeling of revolt and you don't even know exactly against what. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Asking questions is good, it stands for progress. But as anything that's being abused, it loses its meaning.
To find an answer for all your questions, you have to keep a stable and lucid mind. You have to understand how the human mind works and reacts. That's your starting point.
It's easy to say why, why, why and point fingers, in fact... it is a form of escapism. Escaping from your own issues and confusions.
You don't need to look any further than yourself to find an answer for all your questions because you are human too. You, no matter how hard you're trying to convince yourself of the opposite, are no more different or special than anybody else.
I learned that, if my intention is to Know and not to complain, I can recreate in my mind, through my own perspective, all of these events issued by you.
So why ask why just for the sake of it?

The world is as it is and you have two options: you either accept it, or don't. If you don't accept it, the world will remain as it is but you will have a lot of negative and unexplained feelings towards it. That doesn't sound preferable, not for me anyways. I can be as mad and angry a I choose to be and I end up hurting myself when I could instead actually feel good. Which brings me to the second option: accepting. If you choose to accept the world as it is, it will still not change, but you will. Your understanding will. In the moment you stop feeling and acting like a victim, you start to see what's actually happening and what's making things be the way they are.
There is an explanation for anything and the fact you don't see it, means nothing more than that. The explanation still exists.
Everything, this life, this reality, is a chain of causes and effects, effects which will also turn into causes and so on.

Quote:

In this, and I assume every other, society, there are legislative laws; rules that have to be followed no matter what, in order to preserve the stability of the given society. Then there are the other rules. Social "rules". Complex, subtle little rules that are not taught, but rather implicitly implied, through the observation of social behavior, and enforced by ridicule of those who do not follow. Technically, these rules to not have to be followed, but the consequences of not following those rules may be worse than that of breaking the law. Social ostracization, inherent prohibition from having sex, poverty, which all result in a severely insufficient amount of love, which everyone needs.




Yes, I think that all of us here are aware of the existence of those rules.
But you are wrong about your conclusion.
We don't need the society to "love" us in order to feel happy. Can a society really love you? :lol: Its just an institution. :shrug: Can the school love you? Or the library?
This love that you're talking about is not really love, is the need for attention. The need to be confirmed that you are smart or liked or understood... appreciated for the qualities you may or may not have but you think you do. And that other's wont see in you, and that's how your inner conflict is born.
When you feel good with who you are and accept your current situation, others will like you too. That's how it works.

Quote:

In other words, there is no such thing as freedom, no such thing at all. We behave as we ought to behave in order to not suffer consequences. There is no person that is free because we each fit a specific mold, a mold created by pre-school, elementary school, junior-high, high school, college, and the media. As a result of being used to being told exactly what to do, a dictatorship may be born.




Freedom is just another word invented by the society you criticize so much.
What does freedom mean to you? Perhaps your understanding on it is wrong, because if by freedom you understand that you get to do whatever you want, without any form of consequence then you're right. Freedom doesn't exist.
But this way of thinking contradicts not only the man made rules, but the fundamental rules by which this nature works.
For example, you might want to throw a rock up in the air and your wish is for it to never fall back on the ground. But gravity pulls it back and it falls. Would you call that lack of freedom?
And you're also wrong about dictatorship. Dictatorship can be influenced by a situation like the one you described, by it is only born into a weak and fearsome mind.

Quote:

In the end, we are just afraid.


Humans are disgraceful cowards.




Both of these are human traits. But so is understanding or love or honesty...
You can't define humanity only with these two words, because you're really limiting yourself down.
Humans are much too complex to make such a definite statement.

Quote:

Chaos is evil and only emerges from evil.




Yeah?
And what exactly is evil?
Evil and chaos exist only in our minds. We see evil in things that we don't agree with or that make us feel fear.

Quote:

If people were to re-realize, and actualize this re-realization, that they are being limited from becoming fully human, then they would revert to a natural state of humanhood.




By this are you trying to imply that the actual state humanhood is artificial?
I totally disagree. It is as natural as it gets.




I'm going to respond to each of your responses in order:


You're just adding to my sentence, and I don't disagree with you there. But, this feeling of safety, what you call the "instinct" of self preservation, is all a product of fear. Humans are cowards.



Humans think abstractly. I am expressing myself abstractly by asking questions. Am I really, in a literal sense, asking these questions? Probably not. However, you are correct in assuming that my mind is at least, or was at least during the time I posted the original post, a little bit flooded. I kind of forgot the original point of my post, so it turned into kind of a rant. My points, though, regardless, still remain valid, in their own sense. I know the answers to the questions I'm asking, I just want to see what others think.



I wasn't asserting that we need the society to love us, I was saying that as human beings, we all need love from one another. Any opposing view would be a ridiculous notion.


Freedom is another word which I myself define. Yes, the society I criticize so much has it's own definition of freedom, but along with criticizing the society, I criticize it's definition of freedom as well. Part of what I mean by freedom is the "freedom" to pursue becoming what it is to be truly fully human. Transcending the laws of physics has supposedly been done by humans (e.g. spiritual levitation), but that is unforgivingly irrelevant to freedom in the strictest sense; freedom from others' imposing will. Please elaborate on what you mean about dicatorships only being born into weak and fearsome minds.



Everything human is a human trait. As opposed to being afraid of things, what other alternative do we have? What is the opposite of fear? Do you consider fear to be a fundementally good thing, as opposed to it being something bad? The complexity of the human race is indefatigably irrelevant to it's own cowardice, or any claims to assert such a notion, at least in this context.



If you don't know if something is evil, just ask yourself, "As opposed to being good, is this evil?". Of course there are many complexities, anamolies, and infinitisimally small dissemblances in making such a judgement, but that takes practice. Your soul knows the difference, your ego, particularly your ego, does not.




Never did I mention an "actual state of humanhood". Any state of humanhood is actual, by definition. I wasn't implying anything, what I stated is what I meant. By fully human, I mean FULLY HUMAN. By a more natural state, I mean a state less restricted by civilization, a state where we act more like the creatures that we are.





Now, I'm not going to ignore that you disagree with me on basically everything I said, so let me ask you this: Are you free?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992140 - 02/07/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You're just adding to my sentence, and I don't disagree with you there. But, this feeling of safety, what you call the "instinct" of self preservation, is all a product of fear. Humans are cowards.




I am sorry but it simply isn't true.
Some humans are cowards. Some humans are cautious. Other humans love to experience life in its multiple forms and choose to feel good. And so on.
But stating that all humans are just cowards is erroneous and unsustained.

Quote:

Humans think abstractly. I am expressing myself abstractly by asking questions. Am I really, in a literal sense, asking these questions? Probably not. However, you are correct in assuming that my mind is at least, or was at least during the time I posted the original post, a little bit flooded. I kind of forgot the original point of my post, so it turned into kind of a rant. My points, though, regardless, still remain valid, in their own sense. I know the answers to the questions I'm asking, I just want to see what others think.




Then please tell us your conclusions and they will be discussed, like any philosophical idea. Asking a simple question (or more) without adding any of your insight is not a philosophical discussion.

Quote:

I wasn't asserting that we need the society to love us, I was saying that as human beings, we all need love from one another. Any opposing view would be a ridiculous notion.




It is true that all humans might need love, but what differs is the manner in which each of us try to obtain it. Hence the human conflict.
I also said:
"This love that you're talking about is not really love, is the need for attention. The need to be confirmed that you are smart or liked or understood... appreciated for the qualities you may or may not have but you think you do. And that other's wont see in you, and that's how your inner conflict is born.
When you feel good with who you are and accept your current situation, others will like you too. That's how it works."


Quote:

Freedom is another word which I myself define.




You define yourself through freedom and in the same time state that it doesn't exist?
You still didn't tell me what freedom is to you.
In order to know whether or not something exists, you have to elucidate what it means.

Quote:

Yes, the society I criticize so much has it's own definition of freedom, but along with criticizing the society, I criticize it's definition of freedom as well. Part of what I mean by freedom is the "freedom" to pursue becoming what it is to be truly fully human.




As opposed to less human?
And what does less human mean?
Each and every one of us are manifesting aspects of what being human is. But I find it difficult to grasp the concept of "fully human".
Perhaps you mean fully aware. But this is also kind of ambiguous because you can't really define what it means to be fully aware.
Of course it is more preferable to live and let live. Of course it is more preferable not to have others impose their will on you.
But the current reality does not correspond to those preferences.
You are only responsible for your own well being and personal growth, and even if others don't have the same concerns, this doesn't have to stop you in any way from achieving what you want to achieve.

Quote:

Transcending the laws of physics has supposedly been done by humans (e.g. spiritual levitation)




This has yet to be proven.
And anyways my example was not to be taken ad litteram.

Quote:

Please elaborate on what you mean about dicatorships only being born into weak and fearsome minds.




If you will pay close attention to what I said, you will realize that I didn't say ONLY. I also mentioned the influences. But all or most of us live with the same influences and yet not all people are dictators.
So yes, a weak and fearsome mind is required. A mind which refuses to understand and feeds on the fear of others. A mind that confuses love with power.

Quote:

Everything human is a human trait. As opposed to being afraid of things, what other alternative do we have? What is the opposite of fear?




Love, peace of mind, understanding (as in making use of reason and awareness).

Quote:

Do you consider fear to be a fundementally good thing, as opposed to it being something bad?




Fear is neither good or bad.
Its results are both constructive or destructive. In the same time, in different quantities, depending of each and every situation.
For example, I might fear snakes and my fear will make me feel vulnerable, irritated, it might even stop me from expressing myself clearly. Those are the not so desirable aspects. But in the same time I could avoid getting bitten by a snake, which I consider a preferable result. Also, overcoming my fear is another preferable aspect in itself. If the initial fear would have never existed, I would have never had the chance to get over it, which in extent might have kept me from realizing how my mind works. I have observed that along with overcoming a particular fear I have managed to improve the quality of my understanding in much more aspects that those directly related to that particular fear.

Quote:

If you don't know if something is evil, just ask yourself, "As opposed to being good, is this evil?".




Read the above.
Strictly good and strictly bad don't exist.

Quote:

Of course there are many complexities, anamolies, and infinitisimally small dissemblances in making such a judgement, but that takes practice. Your soul knows the difference, your ego, particularly your ego, does not.




You don't know what MY "ego" knows or doesn't know, and this was not the discussion. :lol:
I was merely pointing out the parts from your post that I though they needed clarified, and telling me that I don't understand them does not equal with an explanation.

Quote:

Never did I mention an "actual state of humanhood".




When you say:
Quote:

then they would revert to a natural state of humanhood.


you imply a past moment. Revert = get back (as opposed to the current state.

Quote:

By fully human, I mean FULLY HUMAN. By a more natural state, I mean a state less restricted by civilization, a state where we act more like the creatures that we are.




Look I understand where you're coming from but what you don't seem to realize that we are on our way to something. What it shall be I don't know to tell you because I can't foresee the future.
We are living and experience this life, each of us in different ways and sometimes we learn from the mistakes that we do, other times we don't. This can turn us into more sentient and conscious beings, or in even more restrictive beings.
So basically you're asking why can't everybody just get along. Well, because our perception upon reality differs, we all have our own rhythm of understanding and we're all in different phases of awareness. Life is just following its natural course, and we're doing the same thing.

Quote:

Now, I'm not going to ignore that you disagree with me on basically everything I said, so let me ask you this: Are you free?




On my own understanding of freedom, yes, I can state that I am fairly free.
I decide to take responsibility for who I am, I am responsible for my action and for the way I feel. I realized that if my intention is to enjoy life, then I will regardless the situation and in most of the times I am able to do that. The rest depends solely on exercise.
So yes, I am free, I find joy in life and I consider it to be a wonderful experience. :sun:
Having next to me the person I love makes life even sweeter. :heartpump:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992195 - 02/07/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coward
one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity.




Cowardice is not about feeling fear, it is about what actions you take in response to your fear. One who knows that their ancient brain is triggering certain neurochemicals in reaction to a perceived threat, and can use their reason to choose a response in alignment with their values, IS free. Freedom is in the mind, in the exercise of our rational powers. No matter who cages us or enslaves us or penalizes us for breaking laws, we can remain free in our minds.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7992256 - 02/07/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

You're just adding to my sentence, and I don't disagree with you there. But, this feeling of safety, what you call the "instinct" of self preservation, is all a product of fear. Humans are cowards.




I am sorry but it simply isn't true.
Some humans are cowards. Some humans are cautious. Other humans love to experience life in its multiple forms and choose to feel good. And so on.
But stating that all humans are just cowards is erroneous and unsustained.

Quote:

Humans think abstractly. I am expressing myself abstractly by asking questions. Am I really, in a literal sense, asking these questions? Probably not. However, you are correct in assuming that my mind is at least, or was at least during the time I posted the original post, a little bit flooded. I kind of forgot the original point of my post, so it turned into kind of a rant. My points, though, regardless, still remain valid, in their own sense. I know the answers to the questions I'm asking, I just want to see what others think.




Then please tell us your conclusions and they will be discussed, like any philosophical idea. Asking a simple question (or more) without adding any of your insight is not a philosophical discussion.

Quote:

I wasn't asserting that we need the society to love us, I was saying that as human beings, we all need love from one another. Any opposing view would be a ridiculous notion.




It is true that all humans might need love, but what differs is the manner in which each of us try to obtain it. Hence the human conflict.
I also said:
"This love that you're talking about is not really love, is the need for attention. The need to be confirmed that you are smart or liked or understood... appreciated for the qualities you may or may not have but you think you do. And that other's wont see in you, and that's how your inner conflict is born.
When you feel good with who you are and accept your current situation, others will like you too. That's how it works."


Quote:

Freedom is another word which I myself define.




You define yourself through freedom and in the same time state that it doesn't exist?
You still didn't tell me what freedom is to you.
In order to know whether or not something exists, you have to elucidate what it means.

Quote:

Yes, the society I criticize so much has it's own definition of freedom, but along with criticizing the society, I criticize it's definition of freedom as well. Part of what I mean by freedom is the "freedom" to pursue becoming what it is to be truly fully human.




As opposed to less human?
And what does less human mean?
Each and every one of us are manifesting aspects of what being human is. But I find it difficult to grasp the concept of "fully human".
Perhaps you mean fully aware. But this is also kind of ambiguous because you can't really define what it means to be fully aware.
Of course it is more preferable to live and let live. Of course it is more preferable not to have others impose their will on you.
But the current reality does not correspond to those preferences.
You are only responsible for your own well being and personal growth, and even if others don't have the same concerns, this doesn't have to stop you in any way from achieving what you want to achieve.

Quote:

Transcending the laws of physics has supposedly been done by humans (e.g. spiritual levitation)




This has yet to be proven.
And anyways my example was not to be taken ad litteram.

Quote:

Please elaborate on what you mean about dicatorships only being born into weak and fearsome minds.




If you will pay close attention to what I said, you will realize that I didn't say ONLY. I also mentioned the influences. But all or most of us live with the same influences and yet not all people are dictators.
So yes, a weak and fearsome mind is required. A mind which refuses to understand and feeds on the fear of others. A mind that confuses love with power.

Quote:

Everything human is a human trait. As opposed to being afraid of things, what other alternative do we have? What is the opposite of fear?




Love, peace of mind, understanding (as in making use of reason and awareness).

Quote:

Do you consider fear to be a fundementally good thing, as opposed to it being something bad?




Fear is neither good or bad.
Its results are both constructive or destructive. In the same time, in different quantities, depending of each and every situation.
For example, I might fear snakes and my fear will make me feel vulnerable, irritated, it might even stop me from expressing myself clearly. Those are the not so desirable aspects. But in the same time I could avoid getting bitten by a snake, which I consider a preferable result. Also, overcoming my fear is another preferable aspect in itself. If the initial fear would have never existed, I would have never had the chance to get over it, which in extent might have kept me from realizing how my mind works. I have observed that along with overcoming a particular fear I have managed to improve the quality of my understanding in much more aspects that those directly related to that particular fear.

Quote:

If you don't know if something is evil, just ask yourself, "As opposed to being good, is this evil?".




Read the above.
Strictly good and strictly bad don't exist.

Quote:

Of course there are many complexities, anamolies, and infinitisimally small dissemblances in making such a judgement, but that takes practice. Your soul knows the difference, your ego, particularly your ego, does not.




You don't know what MY "ego" knows or doesn't know, and this was not the discussion. :lol:
I was merely pointing out the parts from your post that I though they needed clarified, and telling me that I don't understand them does not equal with an explanation.

Quote:

Never did I mention an "actual state of humanhood".




When you say:
Quote:

then they would revert to a natural state of humanhood.


you imply a past moment. Revert = get back (as opposed to the current state.

Quote:

By fully human, I mean FULLY HUMAN. By a more natural state, I mean a state less restricted by civilization, a state where we act more like the creatures that we are.




Look I understand where you're coming from but what you don't seem to realize that we are on our way to something. What it shall be I don't know to tell you because I can't foresee the future.
We are living and experience this life, each of us in different ways and sometimes we learn from the mistakes that we do, other times we don't. This can turn us into more sentient and conscious beings, or in even more restrictive beings.
So basically you're asking why can't everybody just get along. Well, because our perception upon reality differs, we all have our own rhythm of understanding and we're all in different phases of awareness. Life is just following its natural course, and we're doing the same thing.

Quote:

Now, I'm not going to ignore that you disagree with me on basically everything I said, so let me ask you this: Are you free?




On my own understanding of freedom, yes, I can state that I am fairly free.
I decide to take responsibility for who I am, I am responsible for my action and for the way I feel. I realized that if my intention is to enjoy life, then I will regardless the situation and in most of the times I am able to do that. The rest depends solely on exercise.
So yes, I am free, I find joy in life and I consider it to be a wonderful experience. :sun:
Having next to me the person I love makes life even sweeter. :heartpump:






I didn't say all humans are cowards?


My conclusions are basically rhetorically implied by my questions. In any case, I wouldn't defend myself at the mercy of others, that's not right.



The manner in which we each obtain love is indefatigably irrelevant to the fact that we need it. I wasn't intending to go into detail.


I think I did tell you what it means to me. Read on.



True, each and every one of us are manifesting aspects of what a human is. To be fully human is to manifest all those aspects into one.



So if you're example was to not be taken ad literam, then how can I be sure that everything you're saying isn't to be taken ad literam? You were pretty passionate about that example, so I thought it was only proper to take it ad literam. I know levitation has yet to be proven, which is why I said supposedly.



What does the mind have to do with dicatorship? Regardless of what kind of mind you have, if you live in a dictatorship, you live in a dictatorship. A sin is a sin is a sin.......



On the fear subject, you fail to understand what I'm asking you. You say the opposite of fear is "Love, peace of mind, understanding (as in making use of reason and awareness).". Now, since they are opposites, they lie on opposite sides of a given spectrum. Given the spectrum of Good and Evil, which one would you place where?



Strictly good and strictly bad don't exist? Ever heard of God and Satan?



No, I think it's pretty clear to me what your ego does and does not understand.



"you imply a past moment. Revert = get back (as opposed to the current state."
What does that have to do with an actual state of humanhood. Whatever implied, I never used the words actual state.





"Look I understand where you're coming from but what you don't seem to realize that we are on our way to something. What it shall be I don't know to tell you because I can't foresee the future.
We are living and experience this life, each of us in different ways and sometimes we learn from the mistakes that we do, other times we don't. This can turn us into more sentient and conscious beings, or in even more restrictive beings.
So basically you're asking why can't everybody just get along. Well, because our perception upon reality differs, we all have our own rhythm of understanding and we're all in different phases of awareness. Life is just following its natural course, and we're doing the same thing."
But if everyone, or almost everyone, was fully human, or almost fully human, our perception on reality would be congruent, or almost congruent. As a result, we would all get along.



"On my own understanding of freedom, yes, I can state that I am fairly free.
I decide to take responsibility for who I am, I am responsible for my action and for the way I feel. I realized that if my intention is to enjoy life, then I will regardless the situation and in most of the times I am able to do that. The rest depends solely on exercise.
So yes, I am free, I find joy in life and I consider it to be a wonderful experience.
Having next to me the person I love makes life even sweeter."
Would you publicly sing your favorite song, in front of a crowd of people?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992339 - 02/07/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I already explained everything there was to explain, this will be a short reply because I am already losing interest in this subject.

Quote:

I didn't say all humans are cowards?




Saying "humans are cowards" without specifying the quantity points out to the general.

Quote:

The manner in which we each obtain love is indefatigably irrelevant to the fact that we need it. I wasn't intending to go into detail.




And I was trying to explain you that since our methods differ we have a conflict.

Quote:

What does the mind have to do with dicatorship? Regardless of what kind of mind you have, if you live in a dictatorship, you live in a dictatorship. A sin is a sin is a sin.......




A sin? :confused:

Quote:

On the fear subject, you fail to understand what I'm asking you. You say the opposite of fear is "Love, peace of mind, understanding (as in making use of reason and awareness).". Now, since they are opposites, they lie on opposite sides of a given spectrum. Given the spectrum of Good and Evil, which one would you place where?




Since I do mot sustain the idea of good and evil, I can't place either of them in any of those categories.
All of them are human and natural manifestation.
Lack of understanding (fear) is not evil, and in some cases it is the process of learning itself. In oder to learn there has to be something that is not understood. How can this be "evil"?

Quote:

Strictly good and strictly bad don't exist? Ever heard of God and Satan?




Ahhh and do those dudes exist? :lol:

Quote:

No, I think it's pretty clear to me what your ego does and does not understand.




Ok then.

Quote:

What does that have to do with an actual state of humanhood. Whatever implied, I never used the words actual state.




Quote:

im·ply      /ɪmˈplaɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-plahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -plied, -ply·ing.
1. to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated: His words implied a lack of faith.
2. (of words) to signify or mean.
3. to involve as a necessary circumstance: Speech implies a speaker.
4. Obsolete. to enfold.




Implying it is saying it with other words.

Quote:

But if everyone, or almost everyone, was fully human, or almost fully human, our perception on reality would be congruent, or almost congruent. As a result, we would all get along.




Yes, I just told you that if we were all aware and understanding and all the like we would probably get along.
But we don't due to that I earlier said:

"We are living and experience this life, each of us in different ways and sometimes we learn from the mistakes that we do, other times we don't. This can turn us into more sentient and conscious beings, or in even more restrictive beings.
So basically you're asking why can't everybody just get along. Well, because our perception upon reality differs, we all have our own rhythm of understanding and we're all in different phases of awareness. Life is just following its natural course, and we're doing the same thing."


Quote:

Would you publicly sing your favorite song, in front of a crowd of people?




This has nothing to do with the subject that's being discussed.
We're discussing ideas here, but yes, for your own curiosity I will answer this one time: yes I would.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992487 - 02/07/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:No matter who cages us or enslaves us or penalizes us for breaking laws, we can remain free in our minds.




but know that there is a difference between an illusion of freedom and freedom of awareness.

many americanized televised brainwashed folk believe in such illusions of freedom, and yes it is freedom to some extent. but it is not the freedom i am talking about.

who are you to say what is freedom?

have you experienced the peak of freedom?
?
and how do you know there aren't peaks on top of peaks?


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7992502 - 02/07/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

MushroomTrip, will you marry me?


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992521 - 02/07/08 04:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What type of freedom ARE you talking about, then?  You want to know who I am to describe freedom, but who are you to disagree with my description?  :lol:

As embodied beings, we experience limitations.  These limits are part of reality, and thus the arena in which we can experience freedom is contained within our minds.  This does not make it illusionary, as the experience of mental freedom expands into our actions within material reality.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992595 - 02/07/08 04:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes but just because you can see these limitations does not make you free. any televised americanized folk can see for a moment the limitations he is encased in, but that does not necessarily make him free. it does not necessarily set his awareness free.

my brothers tell me all the time that the amount of television they watch is just adding to their unawareness of their potential. yet they continue watching tv, like all of the other americanized puppets who think they are free just because they can think this.

the freedom i am talking about exists on many levels, many of which many are clueless of.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992623 - 02/07/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

OK, so define what type of "freedom" you are proposing.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992684 - 02/07/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

this type of freedom cannot be bound within definition, it cannot be fully grasped by a mere concept. it cannot be simply thought of. it has to be realized.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992693 - 02/07/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:rolleyes:  I thought as much.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992733 - 02/07/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, I think it's pretty clear to me what your ego does and does not understand.

Poid, personalisms are against the rules of this forum. That means you debate the issues being brought up, but you leave the people you're debating out of the debate.

This forum is about philosophy, not gossip. Please stick to the topic.

Consider this a formal warning.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992746 - 02/07/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

it is a shame you have to resort to such a petty retort.

it just goes to show the typical misunderstanding.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992759 - 02/07/08 05:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

it is a shame you have to resort to such a petty retort.

It seems to me to be the only kind of reply worthy of a refusal to provide a definition. :shrug:

What more can Veritas say when you refuse to even tell her what it is exactly that you are discussing?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992766 - 02/07/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

can all things be accurately described by a mere definition?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992768 - 02/07/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If they can be discussed, they can and must be defined. If you cannot define it, then she can't know what you're talking about. And so with nothing to talk about, her non-response seems perfectly appropriate.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992775 - 02/07/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i am talking about a freedom that can't be attained through conceptualization, only through experience.

what is so hard to understand about this?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992784 - 02/07/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If you cannot define it, there is nothing to understand, hard or otherwise.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992798 - 02/07/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that is not the way things go, that is your opinion and your point of view.

can you understand ego death through definition?

or is it best understood through experience?


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992808 - 02/07/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
that is not the way things go, that is your opinion and your point of view.

can you understand ego death through definition?

or is it best understood through experience?




In On Liberty, John Stuart Mill said something along the lines of, certain things cannot be properly understood without the aid of experience. Unfortunately, it is hard to transmit an experience over the internet. It's best to use words.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992809 - 02/07/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Ego death" is a conceptualization of experience, not experience itself.  If one wishes to discuss one's experiences, then it is necessary to conceptualize them.  When you refuse to define what you mean by "freedom," you end all possibility of discussion.  I said :rolleyes: because your response seemed like a cop-out.  If you KNOW what you mean, and KNOW that it is NOT what I am discussing, then you CAN define it.  :shrug:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7992810 - 02/07/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I already explained everything there was to explain, this will be a short reply because I am already losing interest in this subject.

Quote:

I didn't say all humans are cowards?




Saying "humans are cowards" without specifying the quantity points out to the general.

Quote:

The manner in which we each obtain love is indefatigably irrelevant to the fact that we need it. I wasn't intending to go into detail.




And I was trying to explain you that since our methods differ we have a conflict.

Quote:

What does the mind have to do with dicatorship? Regardless of what kind of mind you have, if you live in a dictatorship, you live in a dictatorship. A sin is a sin is a sin.......




A sin? :confused:

Quote:

On the fear subject, you fail to understand what I'm asking you. You say the opposite of fear is "Love, peace of mind, understanding (as in making use of reason and awareness).". Now, since they are opposites, they lie on opposite sides of a given spectrum. Given the spectrum of Good and Evil, which one would you place where?




Since I do mot sustain the idea of good and evil, I can't place either of them in any of those categories.
All of them are human and natural manifestation.
Lack of understanding (fear) is not evil, and in some cases it is the process of learning itself. In oder to learn there has to be something that is not understood. How can this be "evil"?

Quote:

Strictly good and strictly bad don't exist? Ever heard of God and Satan?




Ahhh and do those dudes exist? :lol:

Quote:

No, I think it's pretty clear to me what your ego does and does not understand.




Ok then.

Quote:

What does that have to do with an actual state of humanhood. Whatever implied, I never used the words actual state.




Quote:

im·ply      /ɪmˈplaɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-plahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -plied, -ply·ing.
1. to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated: His words implied a lack of faith.
2. (of words) to signify or mean.
3. to involve as a necessary circumstance: Speech implies a speaker.
4. Obsolete. to enfold.




Implying it is saying it with other words.

Quote:

But if everyone, or almost everyone, was fully human, or almost fully human, our perception on reality would be congruent, or almost congruent. As a result, we would all get along.




Yes, I just told you that if we were all aware and understanding and all the like we would probably get along.
But we don't due to that I earlier said:

"We are living and experience this life, each of us in different ways and sometimes we learn from the mistakes that we do, other times we don't. This can turn us into more sentient and conscious beings, or in even more restrictive beings.
So basically you're asking why can't everybody just get along. Well, because our perception upon reality differs, we all have our own rhythm of understanding and we're all in different phases of awareness. Life is just following its natural course, and we're doing the same thing."


Quote:

Would you publicly sing your favorite song, in front of a crowd of people?




This has nothing to do with the subject that's being discussed.
We're discussing ideas here, but yes, for your own curiosity I will answer this one time: yes I would.





Whether or not you retain your interest in this subject makes no difference to me in the world. I do, however, wish to respond for my own personal reasons, may I be allowed as much?







This is a Philosophy forum. To expect one to spell out every single detail of all their personal ideas is a little too much. Part of philosophy, in fact, a great deal of it involves asking questions, and making assertions that have symbolic meaning. When I say "humans are cowards", it's kind of a way for me of saying "I think, or I believe humans are cowards". I didn't intend to specify the quantity, and I would not defend or clarify my assertions at the mercy of others. If one does not understand, and/or do not wish to understand, that is merely one's loss, of whatever one may wish to call it.


Since when is this a conflict? What do you mean our manners differ, from what/whom? And when were we even talking about each other's manners of obtaining love?


A sin is a sin is a sin, a lie is a lie is a lie, a tomato is a tomato is a tomato. Why are you belittling me? Those just happen to be the choice of words I used to express a point.


"Since I do mot sustain the idea of good and evil, I can't place either of them in any of those categories.
All of them are human and natural manifestation.
Lack of understanding (fear) is not evil, and in some cases it is the process of learning itself. In oder to learn there has to be something that is not understood. How can this be "evil"?"
Good and Evil used as equivalents to negative and positive. Now place them.



Again, God and Satan used in a philosophical sense.




Did I even say I implied it? Now I'm going to make this clear; I didn't imply it, I didn't say it.


Why do you have to argue? Everything I say, you assume that I am attacking you or belittling you in some sort of way. I assure you, I am not. This thread was in no way, shape, or form, of any kind, supposed to be, or intended as a debate or an argument.



How do you know it has nothing to do with what's being discussed? You don't know why I asked that question, or what the follow-up might've been. We're discussing whatever is relevant to the original post, which was made by myself. Therefore, it is not up to you to decide what is relevant and what isn't, so long that it falls in the realm of Philosophy & Spirituality, or is explaining such assertions in that realm. Now that you've answered, let me ask you another question, whether or not you wish to answer though is up to you.

Would you walk EXTREMELY slowly in public?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992814 - 02/07/08 05:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This thread was in no way, shape, or form, of any kind, supposed to be, or intended as a debate or an argument.





Wrong forum.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992820 - 02/07/08 05:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Coward
one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity.




Cowardice is not about feeling fear, it is about what actions you take in response to your fear. One who knows that their ancient brain is triggering certain neurochemicals in reaction to a perceived threat, and can use their reason to choose a response in alignment with their values, IS free. Freedom is in the mind, in the exercise of our rational powers. No matter who cages us or enslaves us or penalizes us for breaking laws, we can remain free in our minds.





You are surprisingly dependant on empirical evidence to support your world view. Now, suppose that someday, these things prove to be false, what then?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992828 - 02/07/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Then I will have new evidence to incorporate into my worldview. Until then, I'll go with what is in evidence, rather than delusion, wishful thinking or illusion.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7992833 - 02/07/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Then I will have new evidence to incorporate into my worldview. Until then, I'll go with what is in evidence, rather than delusion, wishful thinking or illusion.




I never said that it was wrong, I was just making a statement.
I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992834 - 02/07/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that is your opinion and your point of view.

You are stating the obvious. Or am I missing something?

can you understand ego death through definition?

Sure.

or is it best understood through experience?

On this point we agree, that it is BEST understood through experience, but that doesn't mean it can't be defined. Ego Death has a definition. So do other intangibles like love.

I can define a roller-coaster ride, but it is best understood by going for a ride. :yesnod:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992864 - 02/07/08 05:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If they can be discussed, they can and must be defined. If you cannot define it, then she can't know what you're talking about. And so with nothing to talk about, her non-response seems perfectly appropriate.





If things can be discussed, then they can and must be defined......if this were to be an argument. This isn't an argument. Nobody here was meant to be pressured to argue. If that is the case, then I wish to end this thread.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992871 - 02/07/08 05:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This thread was in no way, shape, or form, of any kind, supposed to be, or intended as a debate or an argument.

Read the rules of this forum. Particularly the part that says:

Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.




The M&P Forum is where you should start threads on topics you do not want analyzed and critiqued.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992887 - 02/07/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:On this point we agree, that it is BEST understood through experience, but that doesn't mean it can't be defined.




you missed my original point then (this goes for Veritas too), that for an average joe consumed by television and radio, he will have to do a lot more than receive a definition and process a thought to become free. although i could come up with a nice definition (which i refuse to just to prove my point), it will not resonate with a receiver who is so utterly consumed by television UNTIL they experience it for themselves.

until then, it is pointless to give a definition. ya feel me?


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992896 - 02/07/08 05:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
This thread was in no way, shape, or form, of any kind, supposed to be, or intended as a debate or an argument.

Read the rules of this forum. Particularly the part that says:

Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.




The M&P Forum is where you should start threads on topics you do not want analyzed and critiqued.




Then consider this thread, which could've been a wonderful exchange of philisophical ideals, over. It was ruined by exactly what I said; that people just can't get along. I think my point NOW is quite clear, what do you all say? :naughty:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7992911 - 02/07/08 06:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ya feel me?

Nope. How can I when you refuse to tell me what it is we're discussing. I'm not jabbing at you. I'm serious. I cannot understand what you're talking about unless you tell me (define) what you're talking about.

Definitions are at the foundation of philosophy.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992914 - 02/07/08 06:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

People are getting along fine....    :wink:
I think all of the quote boxes in this thread are just making people a little uneasy.... 


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992919 - 02/07/08 06:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

which could've been a wonderful exchange of philisophical ideals

You don't understand philosophy. Philosophy REQUIRES definitions and is ALL ABOUT debate. This is taught on day one of Philosophy 101.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992924 - 02/07/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, you proved your original point :laugh:

this too will pass, as with what may appear to be conflict in this thread.  i am high as fuck on 2cb today, and felt like going outside my box, and had some fun with it.  it's not something i do on a regular basis :rofl2:

(it's all in good fun, i hold nothing personal against these people and at many times hold similar and relating viewpoints)


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992926 - 02/07/08 06:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
This thread was in no way, shape, or form, of any kind, supposed to be, or intended as a debate or an argument.

Read the rules of this forum. Particularly the part that says:

Quote:

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.




The M&P Forum is where you should start threads on topics you do not want analyzed and critiqued.




Then consider this thread, which could've been a wonderful exchange of philisophical ideals, over. It was ruined by exactly what I said; that people just can't get along. I think my point NOW is quite clear, what do you all say? :naughty:




People can disagree about philosophical topics and still get along...

Sometimes.

Other times they kill and torture each other. :doh:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992936 - 02/07/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
which could've been a wonderful exchange of philisophical ideals, over.

You don't understand philosophy. Philosophy REQUIRES definitions and is ALL ABOUT debate. This is taught on day one of Philosophy 101.





I ask that you stop assuming things of me.

I took Philosophy in college. I have the textbook still. While Philosophy may "REQUIRE" definitions and debate, I wasn't here to define or debate. What I didn't understand, or look into, were the specific rules of this forum, which by the way are limiting assertions of new possible definitions and limiting the scope of debate.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992942 - 02/07/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
ya feel me?

Nope. How can I when you refuse to tell me what it is we're discussing.




if you need me to tell you what it is i am trying to convey then you have missed my original point and for me to go on would be like talking to a wall. this all proves the point Poid originally made, it is quite funny in a way.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7992950 - 02/07/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Other times they kill and torture each other. :doh:




there is nothing wrong with death, as long as it is for life :naughty:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7992952 - 02/07/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What I didn't understand, or look into, were the specific rules of this forum

Alright, well now you do.

I hope you stick around though. This place can be rough on ideas, and if someone identifies personally with those ideas, this place can be rough on them too. But we're all friends here bound by a common interest in stumbling around looking for a Truth that may be impossible to find. :heart:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992956 - 02/07/08 06:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

here here :thumbup:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Diploid]
    #7992983 - 02/07/08 06:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
What I didn't understand, or look into, were the specific rules of this forum

Alright, well now you do.

I hope you stick around though. This place can be rough on ideas, and if someone identifies personally with those ideas, this place can be rough on them too. But we're all friends here bound by a common interest in stumbling around looking for a Truth that may be impossible to find. :heart:




Am I your friend, Diploid?:naughty:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7993006 - 02/07/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

that for an average joe consumed by television and radio, he will have to do a lot more than receive a definition and process a thought to become free.




This is not about what one has to do to become free.  What I asked you is what you meant by freedom.  *sigh*  You know enough about YOUR definition of freedom to claim that my definition was incorrect, yet you "refuse to just to prove my point."  All I can say is :rolleyes:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #7993040 - 02/07/08 06:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Am I your friend, Diploid?

Don't push it! :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7993170 - 02/07/08 06:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

that for an average joe consumed by television and radio, he will have to do a lot more than receive a definition and process a thought to become free.




This is not about what one has to do to become free.  What I asked you is what you meant by freedom.  *sigh*  You know enough about YOUR definition of freedom to claim that my definition was incorrect, yet you "refuse to just to prove my point."  All I can say is :rolleyes:




well you originally stated that "freedom is this", so i wanted to share an alternative viewpoint.  i just like to think of freedom as a process rather than something static.  or something that there is always more to attain.  when you say "freedom is this", it gives others the impression that you think you are free.  and i am saying that there is much more freedom we can wake up to, and this goes for all of us.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7993198 - 02/07/08 06:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I agree that it is a process of becoming, as opposed to something one achieves & owns forever. The freedom I posted about was found in our moment-to-moment choices about how we respond to our experiences. The amount of freedom we allow ourselves in those choices can vary from situation to situation, or even from hour to hour. I may allow myself more freedom when I feel great than I do when my back is hurting, or less freedom when I am engaging in worry than I do when I am preoccupied with joy.

Do you see the process as something we improve upon by learning from our experiences?


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7993247 - 02/07/08 07:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Do you see the process as something we improve upon by learning from our experiences?

absolutely. i also find that paying attention to the process is of great value, like meditation.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7993279 - 02/07/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I remember a great description of this process...the author (whose name escapes me at the moment) said that awareness was like a tightrope, and that the aim was not to walk the tightrope perfectly, but rather to notice when you were falling.  :sun:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7993311 - 02/07/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

it's definitely sunny now :smile:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7993343 - 02/07/08 07:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like the idea of incorporating failure into our expectations of reality, particularly when the failure is framed as results. The question is not really whether we have succeeded or failed, but whether our efforts produced the results we prefer. If not, we can change our efforts, if so, we can replicate our efforts. Eliminating judgment of this process frees up a great deal of energy.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7993517 - 02/07/08 07:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

just letting go of everything frees up a lot of energy :thumbup:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7993521 - 02/07/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Indeed, but that might be an unrealistic goal. :wink:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7993621 - 02/07/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

doesn't mean its a goal i shouldn't practise to achieve :laugh:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7993628 - 02/07/08 08:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, if your goal is to let go of everything, and you "fail" by only letting go of many things, you've still succeeded.  :grin:


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7993682 - 02/07/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

failure, success, what would one be without the other?


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: deranger]
    #7994427 - 02/07/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

failure, success, what would one be without the other?




You wouldn't recognize either thats for sure


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Veritas]
    #7999581 - 02/09/08 10:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"I agree that it is a process of becoming, as opposed to something one achieves & owns forever."

I love that quote, well put.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Society/Culture [Re: Poid]
    #8298587 - 04/17/08 10:01 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Since the dawn of human civilization, people have made complex social structures to preserve their way of life. Throughout history, what is moral and immoral changes, very often.

When can we stick to one set of postulates? Since we know that morality is subjective and changes about as often as the weather (minor exaggeration), when will we stop confining ourselves to evil paradigms? When others do things to try to change the evil paradigm, why do the rest put them down? Doesn't everybody realize that what we believe is just what our parents and society taught us? Why can't we let each other be free, why can't we leave each other alone? Why do we allow ourselves to be separated into competing groups, groups that have different ideals of morality, when it doesn't even matter what you believe in because you've just been basically brainwashed, conditioned, to believe it? Why have any strong-founded beliefs in anything? Are people so foolish as to think that they have it all right, even when they get proven wrong?

Why is sex and sexual desire such an important issue to people? What logic is behind any of the sexual morals today, and what logic is behind the sexual morals of the past? Is it even any logic at all, or is it all just based on the tradition that exists solely in the evil paradigm? They say we are rational beings, and I believe we are, but in an irrational manner. Those morals aren't morals, they're rules. Morals are rules.

In this, and I assume every other, society, there are legislative laws; rules that have to be followed no matter what, in order to preserve the stability of the given society. Then there are the other rules. Social "rules". Complex, subtle little rules that are not taught, but rather implicitly implied, through the observation of social behavior, and enforced by ridicule of those who do not follow. Technically, these rules to not have to be followed, but the consequences of not following those rules may be worse than that of breaking the law. Social ostracization, inherent prohibition from having sex, poverty, which all result in a severely insufficient amount of love, which everyone needs.

In other words, there is no such thing as freedom, no such thing at all. We behave as we ought to behave in order to not suffer consequences. There is no person that is free because we each fit a specific mold, a mold created by pre-school, elementary school, junior-high, high school, college, and the media. As a result of being used to being told exactly what to do, a dictatorship may be born.

These days, any dissidence can result in incarceration, whether is be peaceful or otherwise. Especially when you're young. If you don't fit the mold by the time you're in high school, something happens. Inherently, generally, if you don't fit the mold, you don't graduate. If you're not like the rest, they send you to Wilderness Camp (they actually do this where I live). If you've been using drugs, they send you to a "rehabilitation center", where they attempt to recondition you around peers your own age (I know, I went through it). And none of this is due to a direct act of legislation. There is no law that says that you have to follow a certain criteria.


In the end, we are just afraid.


Humans are disgraceful cowards.




Hey all, I just wanted to restart this thread to see if any new people, or even the same ones, want anything to further discuss the issue.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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