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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9596041 -

Quote:
Meditation is the way, LSD can't be a shortcut.



Assuming both occur in the mind, there is no difference. You either get it, or you don't.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Chronic7]
    #9596170 -

Neo-Vedantism is to the Vedic religion like Mahayana Buddhism is to Theravada Buddhism.

With that said...

Chronic777 said:
Buddhas teaching of no-self (anatman) is essentially same teaching as the teaching of the Self (atman), they both point to absolute reality


I agree with you on the broad ideas, and not the particulars, which is what I was picking at in my above posts.  But for the sake of discussion, I'll continue :smile:

Quote:
Hindus teach to acheive union with the Self, which is voidness
Buddha directly teaches the voidness of Self


To say "Hindus" teach anything is a huge generalization, as the encompassing term "Hindu" originally referred to people of a certain region near the Indus River Valley.  It was later used as an umbrella term to collect the varying belief systems of the region.

You say the Hindu's hope to achieve union with the Self.  What is Hindu, and what is Self?  These are important distinctions and definitions to make.  I'll give an example of why I find it important to define these abstract concepts as I tried to in my two posts above. 

In Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, he creates a dualistic model of reality.  There are fundamentally two separate things.  We think we are Prakrti (matter), but we are truly Purusha (an abstract spiritual reality).  Moksha in this line of thinking entails one seeing through the ahamkara (I-maker) and realizing we are truly Purusha, which is completely different from Prakrti (physical reality).  In the line of thought of the Upanisadic thinkers, we are to understand that reality is advaita (non-dual).  To realize one's self as the Brahman is to realize one's self as the whole of physical reality (which all was building upon ideas in the Rg Veda of how multiplicity came from the absolute).

So is the Self physical, non-material, spiritual, none of the above?  By Hindu's who do you mean?  Yogi's?  Upanisadic ponderers?  Strict Rg Vedists?  Bhakti's?  Vaishnavites?  Shaivites?  Buddhists even?

Quote:
Buddha directly showed that Self itself is empty of quality through the truth of the impermanence of objective phenomenon, so instead of saying any perceived quality is 'not me', he taught to look into the nature of things directly seeing that everything, including Self, is qualityless


The idea of emptiness comes from the word "shunyata", which also could be translated as voidness.  Void of quality, yes.  But also in a void, all things are the same.  Quality-less-ness (lol) not only is inferred from the impermanence of ALL things (not just objective).  But it also comes from the chain of dependent arising.  The difference again between moksha and nirvana is that the most-Hindu's hold to the axiom of moksha and atman (that there is in fact a self that survives the liberation).  Buddhists believe that nirvana and subsequently parinirvana are achievable, but there is no-self, no no-self remaining, both no-self and no no-self remaining, and neither no-self nor no no-self remaining.  They aren't the same thing.  One completely transcends any form of understanding, whereas the other purports to understand, and discusses an absolute reality and other such things that the Buddha would reply and answer by saying "The question doesn't make sense," or "This has nothing to do with the cessation of suffering".

The Tathagatagarba (Buddha-nature, Buddha-body, Buddha-field) was a later Mahayana construct, which was most likely attributed to the Buddha but was not truly an original teaching.  Just as Neo-Vedantism isn't original.  That's not to say it isn't the greater vehicle.  I'm just trying to stick to basics.  The Tathagatagarba and Brahma could be seen as basically the same thing, which also led to the creation of zillions of bodhisattvas just as the Hindi's have zillions of gods.  It circled back around.  I'm talking about Theravada Buddhism, the Speech of the Elders, the one the Buddha started with as a revolution and politically polemical stance against Vedic ideologies.

Quote:
:peace:


:sun:


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Arden]
    #9596188 -

Arden said:
Quote:
Meditation is the way, LSD can't be a shortcut.



Assuming both occur in the mind, there is no difference. You either get it, or you don't.


For me, it works exactly as I later read:  I paraphrase "If enlightenment is a mountain, meditation and self-betterment is hiking up the mountain.  You maintain your position and continue to climb higher.  Psychedelics are the sight-seeing lift that takes you up, possibly all the way to the top, but unfortunately it turns right back around and drops you back off at the bottom".


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #9597063 -

Quote:
Psychedelics are the sight-seeing lift that takes you up, possibly all the way to the top, but unfortunately it turns right back around and drops you back off at the bottom".



I can commiserate with this idea, but "enlightenment" in the traditional sense seems to be very much the same--insofar as it involves brief glimpses and hints of infinite awareness and understanding.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Arden]
    #9597716 -

with psyches you can merge impossible concepts
things fit together effortlessly and merge to oneness
concepts are free of constraint and pain
or otherwise
but it is amazing
epiphanic.

sometimes you can surf the epiphany by following a way of thought, by letting things be, and acting "enlightened"

i don't think this has anything to do with actual enlightenment.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #9598056 -

psychedelics are to steroids as meditation is to weightlifting

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: deCypher]
    #9598142 -

deCypher said:
bradley said:
Since forever?


Honestly, I've never correlated enlightenment with entering into a spiritual state.  It's always seemed to me that at least when referring to Buddha-esque enlightenment, one has transcended into a wiser mental state, but this does not imply the existence of metaphysical things such as spirits.


not "spirits" as in ghosts or entities, singular spirit as in consciousness or awareness.

as we grow up identity moves from
body --> emotion ---> thought ---->

for an "enlightened" person it finally moves to consciousness itself

this is always what all of the enlightenment gurus say

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9598436 -

bradley said:
psychedelics are to steroids as meditation is to weightlifting


in the sense that you can easily overshoot the middle way - then yes

and in the sense that you can formulate a naturally unsustainable consciousness - then yes again

but also if used in moderation with fortunate intuition - pretty damn good.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9598470 -

Quote:
bradley said:,,,
as we grow up identity moves from
body --> emotion ---> thought ---->
,,,


identity, hmm, interesting.
what about involvement displacing identity.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9598506 -

you mean like playing a different role, like an accountant being a sports broadcaster for a day? or acting?

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9599163 -

Aren't our identities like prisons of sorts?  :shrug:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Middleman]
    #9599705 -

Quote:
It's cool, he's one of my teachers, frosty Zen.


And this is how we know that RGV is clueless and Adya rocks. Jim Jones also rocked because selected wide-eyed, followers with no center of their own thought so.

Thus ends today's lesson on critical thinking.


--------------------

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9599861 -

redgreenvines said:
bradley said:,,,
as we grow up identity moves from
body --> emotion ---> thought ---->
,,,
identity, hmm, interesting.
what about involvement displacing identity.




Quote:
bradley said:
you mean like playing a different role, like an accountant being a sports broadcaster for a day? or acting?


no I just mean as a more general rule,
"as we grow up our interest moves through body --> emotion ---> thought ---->"

identity is more territorial, of course an interest can become territorial, but it does not have to be territorial:
such as when adya signifyes emotional and intellectual territory for middleman who is in the middle of identity with emotion and thought.

but some people identify less but still have strong interest and involvement (just not territorial).


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Poid]
    #9599863 -

Poid said:
Aren't our identities like prisons of sorts?  :shrug:


to the degree we are defensive and territorial - yes
which is why I think the general rule is that mental activity follows interest, but that with identity, the interest turns into territoriality.
and that is definitely a prison-like problem.
but it is optional.
you can be into something - involved, but not identify with it, just aware of it.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9600222 -

In order to get enlightened, you need to meditate 24/7. You can only take psychedelics once a month, because of the tolerance. Even weed takes weeks before it's completely out of your system and before you can have the full psychedelic effects again.

So, IMO, psychedelics will help you get there faster. But psychedelics are only a very small part of the road because you can't be on them 24/7.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9600298 -

maybe it takes a month for you to forget the effects so you are shocked next time you take it

actual tolerance is a couple days

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9600716 -

For me the tolerance is a month. I once only waited 2 weeks, and took a triple dose, 100g fresh shrooms to compensate, but it didn't have any effects, at all. I guess it depends from person to person.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9600882 -

hm.. strange

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9601122 -

redgreenvines said:
Poid said:
Aren't our identities like prisons of sorts?  :shrug:


to the degree we are defensive and territorial - yes
which is why I think the general rule is that mental activity follows interest, but that with identity, the interest turns into territoriality.
and that is definitely a prison-like problem.
but it is optional.
you can be into something - involved, but not identify with it, just aware of it.


But even if we're not territorial about it, it's still a prison. I would like to give a real-world example to help explain what I'm trying to say here, but I've just realized that almost everything, if not absolutely everything in nature is territorial.

It's like something forces us to be territorial, and then when we meditate or use psychedelics, the resulting ego-death can be unbearable, to the degree that we take our territoriality seriously.

The fact that we have to be into something, whether or not we identify it, kind of shows that it is a prison, don't you think?  :shrug:

Edited by Poid (01/13/09 12:21 PM)

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Poid]
    #9601227 -

isn't prison the place behind bars, the place you are stuck?

I find that the identity or the ego, is a changing bouquet of attitudes or habitual responses to triggers. I call these attitude pieces masks, because each one has particular routines - gestures and expressions - and each one has SHAPED eye holes, such that it is looking for particular range of responses to the expressions and that is that. they are to be used in sequences, and are great for automatic management of routine kinds of behavior.

if you have to respond, with some of these reflex attitudes, then you are pretty much LOCKED up behind the masks.

however - in reality you are out here in mind with me, and everything is associative, the trigger is associated with the mask, and the next trigger is associated with the next mask...

but out here in mind we can see the process, so we can be aware of identities, and not imprisoned by them. and we don't have to respond, and we can grab masks that are from elsewhere in our stash, or look through different eye slits.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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