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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states
    #9591941 -

At about 7 minutes in, he says "I like a spiritual experience as much as the next guy. Mystical experiences are particularly compelling. Unfortunately, they don't have anything to do with what enlightenment is all about".



I don't understand. If enlightenment is identification with spirit, isn't that by definition a mystical experience?

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9591948 -

Quote:
bradley said: enlightenment is identification with spirit


Since when?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: deCypher]
    #9591965 -

Since forever?

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9592000 -

It's rather easy to speculate on what enlightenment involves since so few people have ever experienced it.


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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Silversoul]
    #9592025 -

There's enough written about it to get a pretty good idea.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9592796 -

bradley said:
There's enough written about it to get a pretty good idea.


Yes, but "A painting of cakes does not satisfy hunger."

:smile:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9593351 -

people are sleeping here - so I played that video with the sound off.

seems to be shaved headed white people sitting too closely together and one guy talking from a chair with hand expressions as if there were a kind of music playing that only he could hear.

glad I was not there- a bit too stiff and eager.

anyway, spiritual really just means mental, something more sublime than physical objects, and mystical just means hidden, we like to demystify if possible.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9594564 -

You have no clue vines, Adya rocks. :headbang:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9594571 -

bradley said:
Since forever?


Honestly, I've never correlated enlightenment with entering into a spiritual state.  It's always seemed to me that at least when referring to Buddha-esque enlightenment, one has transcended into a wiser mental state, but this does not imply the existence of metaphysical things such as spirits.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Middleman]
    #9594628 -

Middleman said:
You have no clue vines, Adya rocks. :headbang:


is adya your teacher?
no disrespect meant
very lyrical


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9594679 -

Enlightenment as defined by the Buddha (aka the guy who came up with the whole thang) strictly states that enlightenment is the extinguishing of the three fires, which are greed, anger, and delusion.


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9594696 -

It's cool, he's one of my teachers, frosty Zen.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #9594716 -

Osho said on LSD, it would only express the minds fantasies. And just brings up your subconsciousness.
The visions were only dreams, and therefore of no value for spiritual awakening. Even if you experience Samadhi, Kundalini etc.
Meditation is the way, LSD can't be a shortcut.

This is my interpretation of his saying, i do not claim to understood him!

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: myshroomyhead]
    #9594984 -

Since when did Buddha invent enlightenment?

Ever heard of Hinduism?

or more poignantly, the vedas?


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The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9595052 -

I think this funny man refers to enlightenment as discovering/acknowledging one's 'true' self which does not change, unlike the (mystical/spiritual) experiences we make.
But he uses 10.000 words to describe something simple, while he seems not near any truth for me. For example I did not hear him explain why the 'true' self does not change. Thats a much too huge assumption for me.
Even if the truth stays the same, the 'true' self will change.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: LSDXM]
    #9595223 -

Krash Kharma said:
Since when did Buddha invent enlightenment?

Ever heard of Hinduism?

or more poignantly, the vedas?


You mean "moksha" which is a fundamentally different beast than "nirvana".


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Epigallo]
    #9595591 -

enlightenment to me is experiencing the illumination of Self realization
pure awareness

but lookign further can awareness be an experience when Awareness percieves every experience?
can the Self experience itself?

any experience that comes has to be seen as not 'it'
as every experience passes
but then more powerful experiences come
the more you give it up the more you get

when theres no desire or attachment great experiences happen
the trick is to not attach to them or chase them in the future
stay empty

:peace:


jonathanseagull said:
Krash Kharma said:
Since when did Buddha invent enlightenment?

Ever heard of Hinduism?

or more poignantly, the vedas?


You mean "moksha" which is a fundamentally different beast than "nirvana".


how?
truth is truth & theres only one :shrug:

:peace:


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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: Chronic7]
    #9595642 -

Chronic777 said:
Quote:
You mean "moksha" which is a fundamentally different beast than "nirvana".


how?
truth is truth & theres only one :shrug:

:peace:


The fundamental difference lies with the differing axioms of atman and anatman, which are opposites.  In one, there is the "self" you mention several times in your post.  In the other, there isn't. 

We can spout off conjecture all day long, which is what I have avoided by defaulting to the authoritative definitions on the matter (whether they are correct or not is for another thread).


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #9595840 -

Keep it for this one :wink:

Buddhas teaching of no-self (anatman) is essentially same teaching as the teaching of the Self (atman), they both point to absolute reality

Hindus teach to acheive union with the Self, which is voidness
Buddha directly teaches the voidness of Self

Hinduisms main approach was 'neti-neti', as in 'not-me not-me' to reject objective phenomenon as non-Self & to leave the Supreme Self to shine by itself

Buddha directly showed that Self itself is empty of quality through the truth of the impermanence of objective phenomenon, so instead of saying any perceived quality is 'not me', he taught to look into the nature of things directly seeing that everything, including Self, is qualityless

It reveals the emptiness of Self faster as you can spend years saying 'not me not me' but not knowing yourself, or you can look that the nature of of all things is empty, including Self, or no-Self!

In Buddhas last sutras the mahaparinirvana sutras the Buddha explained his teachings of no-self point to the real Self which is the buddha nature

:peace:


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Re: Enlightenment independent of spiritual and mystical states [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #9595865 -

IMO Working towards being as emotionally well as possible is more important than any sort of enlightenment, that is if they are different things. Spiritual experiences can certaintly be of great benefit in this pursuit IME.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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