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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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If you think we're just bodies..
    #924641 -

Do you believe killing someone is wrong? If so, do you think bashing your computer is too? Or how about breaking a pencil? I mean..it's all JUST matter right?

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: ]
    #924696 -

Killing is wrong. Anyway, i don't get why you're try to relate killing with destroying this way, a valid relation is that killing is a way of destruction. You don't kill the pencil but you destroy by breaking it, it all has too do with shift of states, before destroying the state is functional after destroying it the state is not functional, it's up to the person to consider this shift meaninful or not and then suffer the consequences of the opinion of others.
Also, when you say "it's just matter, right ?" is wrong. A pencil (and all non living things) is just made of matter, a tree (and all vegetal life) is made of matter and life, a human being (and all animal life) is made of matter, life and inteligence. It's seems the further we go in this 3 steps regarding destroying them, the more reproved the action is by society.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (10/02/02 01:03 PM)

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: ]
    #924721 -

why do you assume that because someone believes that people are nothing but matter, that that person would believe that killing is ok?
certainly some do, but some people who believe in some type of "spirit" world might think killing is ok too.
I think killing is a bad idea because it takes away a person's right to contribute to society in some way. spirituality doesn't = morality.

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: ]
    #924725 -

no act anything can commit is 'wrong', its the reasons behind what the action is that some may deem unethical.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: MAIA]
    #924734 -

all matter is essentially energy, so we are all just energy vibrating on the same level or conscesness, and all the things around us too.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: CleverName]
    #925212 -

But there must be a reason for morality. Without this reasoning, why have morality at all?
I know it is wrong to kill and I know why, therefore I must have the reasoning. If someone thinks we are nothing but matter, what would be the point of anything at all? Our morality would be based on pure society and parental influence wihtout reasoning. This was my point.

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: ]
    #925363 -

I know it is wrong to kill and I know why, therefore I must have the reasoning. If someone thinks we are nothing but matter, what would be the point of anything at all? Our morality would be based on pure society and parental influence wihtout reasoning. This was my point.

The complete absence of an ultimate morality results not just from an extreme materialistic perspective on things, but any belief system that does not acknowledge a higher being-thing that hands down the law (e.g., Zen Buddhism, Taoism). The absence of ultimate morality means that it is we who create the ?shoulds? of the world. We decide (not without the influence of biology and environment) that it is wrong to kill. It seems kind of like a lonely, nihilistic perspective- there is no all powerful authority to whom we turn for the answers. But it is lonely and depressing only because of the mistaken view that we are actually separate, stand-alone, little ?first causes? in the first place.

And any theory of "should" is ultimately based on values (e.g., your desire to continue living), and we do not infer core values using reasoning. Values, like the belief in God, are not justifiable using reason, and so, the more you keep digging, the more it becomes clear morality is not rational at all.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: CleverName]
    #925380 -

That's ok with me, i agree.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: ]
    #925501 -

"I know it is wrong to kill and I know why, therefore I must have the reasoning."

You're begging the question, you can't prove your capacity to reason just because of you knowing that it's wrong to kill. In fact, man is the only known form of life that consciencelly kills with a reason besides the need for survival. Man with his so called reasoning have allready justified the right to kill. Wich are the valid justifications ? Take the nazi era as an example, Hitler and germany justified the killing of jews for their own superiority complex, they were intelligent people, why killing people ? It proves our morality and values change, not killing is a part of the moral code of most of the world, that moral code can change due to many motives. Is it right to condemn someone to the electric chair ? Doesn't the one that plug the button reasonning at that time ?

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: buttonion]
    #925606 -

"And any theory of "should" is ultimately based on values (e.g., your desire to continue living)"

Are you saying that you desire to continue living is just a value ? Well, i thought the need for survival was instinctive. Relating to what i said in my previous post, Man is also the only life form that contrary to his nature can self destruct, this aspect is specifically related with social facts. So it's all the other way around, you desire to live because in the first place your genes tell you to do so and you loose your desire to live due a social/values/moral problem. The "should" is based in our nature, primal desire "i should eat because i need to eat", what is based on morality is the opposite, the "shouldn't", our moral code is based on rules our society created.

"Values, like the belief in God, are not justifiable using reason, and so, the more you keep digging, the more it becomes clear morality is not rational at all. "

Morality is rational at least, it is created by our reasonning and evolves as we do. How can morality evolve without being recreated, someone or something has to think to do it as long as we need a moral code. Can you live without one ?

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: MAIA]
    #925859 -

I am against the killing of human beings, but i don't think its *more* wrong than killing any other animal or living organism. We have to kill for food  in order to live and i don't think thats wrong "this is necessary, life feeds on life" but I don't think its much more disgusting to eat human flesh than it is to eat cow flesh.

I may kill a chicken for sustenance before i kill my neighbour, but thats mainly because since we're the same species (my neighbour and i that is) i have a lot in common with him, and maybe a closer connection. that and i'd go to jail for life for killing a person :smirk:

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #925912 -

in the event that there's a worldwide famine, and other humans are our only source of food, survival is more important than morality; we would become more primitive in our behavior, and I don't see anything wrong with killing for cannibalism in that situation

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: I_Heart_Sheeple]
    #925929 -

I heart sheeple?

whose puppet?  :smile: :grin:


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #925940 -

what's a puppet?

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #926532 -

hehe
Sheeple is a real term...it means us. Americans. Being lead around like sheep by our fearless shepherd Bush. At least that's how my friend's conspiracy-spouting father puts it.... Am I right Sheeple?

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #927623 -

Oh, I thought it was acidic sloth trying to be funny... :blush:


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #927740 -

Things are only wrong if a society deems it wrong...majority rules


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Welcome To My World

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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: psylocipher]
    #928038 -

i think morality is just a manmade game ... rules are always changing, taboos become normatives and normatives become taboos. take for example the roman-greek lifestyle of "boylove". the romans and greeks thought of a man and a boy made a very noble and romatic love. fast foward to today and if you want to date the boy next door your a child molester. now the point of this example is: back then society acepted this form of "love" people infact praised it. since its out of fashion now the premise in not the same as it was then. so a man trying to cop a feel on a little kid is seen as gross because the way its set up now ... well you do have to be a little sick in the head to do it ...  not that im saying its right or wrong but the majority has made it wrong ..... that behavior is not praised or noble any more. people who run against the normatives are either really dedicated or just want to kick up dirt and cause trouble.

the bottem line is people want (maybe even need) to relate to one another (we need to feel we're normal .... even crazy people have other crazy people), so they push thier ideas and opinions on one another so that they feel normal. we're all unique freaks and we're all lost trying to grab on to anything to have in common. a truth maybe be that we're all using the hand we're were dealt with and most importantly we want to use them with other people. you dont play play poker by yourself anyways ... most the time.

morality is a system set up by man that has fads running it.

100 years from now we'll be looked at as very ignorent and unitelligent people ... well the majority anyways!

:confused:     


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig



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Re: If you think we're just bodies.. [Re: MAIA]
    #928174 -

Are you saying that you desire to continue living is just a value ? Well, i thought the need for survival was instinctive. Relating to what i said in my previous post, Man is also the only life form that contrary to his nature can self destruct, this aspect is specifically related with social facts. So it's all the other way around, you desire to live because in the first place your genes tell you to do so and you loose your desire to live due a social/values/moral problem. The "should" is based in our nature, primal desire "i should eat because i need to eat", what is based on morality is the opposite, the "shouldn't", our moral code is based on rules our society created.


My ?values? includes all things that society places importance on, including human life, status, competitiveness, whatever. I didn?t make the distinction between things that we value due to nature or nurture, although I think this is a useful distinction. It seems like you are talking about Freud?s Id vs. Superego conflict: That which our organism is driven to do vs. that which society tells us. In any case, that which we place value on is ultimately not justifiable by reason.



Morality is rational at least, it is created by our reasoning..

If you keep on asking the question ?why?? when looking at any area that society values, you will eventually arrive at something that is valued just because it is (although there may be a theory that attempts to explain ?why? like evolution or a motive to reduce anxiety)- but, ultimately, the reason we value them is not logical.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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