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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: Kickle]
    #9203238 -

this isn't a matter of need.. do all these big corporations NEED all this money they make of consumers?

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9203293 -

Basically yes, it involves a number of other variables such as how difficult it is to get that item, and how much thought must be put into considering the utility function of any particular package.

The principle behind it is very simple though; what action can I take that will provide for the greatest possible enjoyment for me.

When considering theft you must also take into consideration other varibles aside from how much you are spending (in this case nothing) on an item.

For instance your chance of being assaulted by the one your are stealing from thus resulting in medical bills, time off of work, and possible legal fees.

Being arrested which would also mean possible time off of work, legal fees, and mental stress.

The opinion of those around you, and how it affects their relationship with you.

The affect you are having on your environment. Theft leads to higher prices, and it also leads to angering the people you are stealing from.

Your appreciation of the item.

(There are allot of others, but I do not know them all, and I don't really feel like going into any depth on the ones that I do. If your interested, a google search should bring up allot of info on it.)

Over all theft results in a net loss of enjoyment, not a net gain. There will obviously be isolated exceptions to this, but overall (even within the life of one person) it holds true.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: sumguyy]
    #9203310 -

sumguyy said:
this isn't a matter of need.. do all these big corporations NEED all this money they make of consumers?


What right do you have to make that decision for them. Perhaps I dont think you need that mp3 player, that shinny new car, apartment, glass dinnerware....etc. Maybe I think all you need is a tent, and 3 square meals a day. Should I stop by and help myself to your things?


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: Irdamage]
    #9203314 -

Quote:
Nothing, we know that is how businesses begin and operate, by providing goods and services for the  exchange of other valuables. It gets a little fuddled when the value of the service your providing is less than that of what your charging but thats part of the free market is the freedom to choose to take your valuables else where. When businesses begin to monopolize and drive out fair competition the gaps in wealth begin to appear. (which inherently happens because competition means less $$ for them)


Again, you're talking about economic policy.

Do the problems inherent in the US system justify shoplifting?  Yes or no?  If yes, how so?

Quote:
If you googled that definition I suggest you read more about its history because it stems from the idea of making money from money, which from most perspectives is seen as equally despicable as theft. I am all about a man working hard for a fair pay, thats a big part of my philosophy of life. However time has proven countlessly that our institutions of business and government will not follow that same ideology of giving a hard worker a fair wage.


Really?  I get a fair wage, because I don't settle for a shitty one.  You can all do this too.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9203318 -

I honestly don't see how stealing a 52" plasma TV from a random household would in any way cause me to lose enjoyment.  The factors you mention exist, yes, but their negative impact is so negligible in comparison with the tangible benefit I'd get from being able to watch the Empire Strikes Back in all its glory.  :cool:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: deCypher]
    #9203328 -

Economist would disagree.

Check it out, it really is pretty interesting.....and at least invite me over if you go ahead and steal that 52". :alc:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9203365 -

Just going through those examples you listed:

Quote:
For instance your chance of being assaulted by the one your are stealing from thus resulting in medical bills, time off of work, and possible legal fees.


Only applies if you rob the house while the occupants are there--solvable with a minimum amount of time and effort dedicated to surveillance.

Quote:
Being arrested which would also mean possible time off of work, legal fees, and mental stress.


The ratio of unsolved thefts to thefts where they made an arrest is very high.  In 2006, for instance, only 12% of car thefts were cleared by arrests.

Quote:
The opinion of those around you, and how it affects their relationship with you.


Don't tell anyone you steal shit, and it'll be fine.

Quote:
The affect you are having on your environment. Theft leads to higher prices, and it also leads to angering the people you are stealing from.


This is only due to the contribution of many, many people stealing.  My personal contribution to this price increase is so negligible as not to impinge on my decision.  And why should I care if the people I'm stealing from are angry?

Quote:
Your appreciation of the item.


I'd enjoy a stolen TV much better than a TV that I had to pay for.

It seems like this is a pretty empty argument trying to justify some sort of rational morality--an attempt that's doomed to fail.  But that being said, I'll gladly invite ya over.  Thieves make for interesting company regardless.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9203464 -

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:
Nothing, we know that is how businesses begin and operate, by providing goods and services for the  exchange of other valuables. It gets a little fuddled when the value of the service your providing is less than that of what your charging but thats part of the free market is the freedom to choose to take your valuables else where. When businesses begin to monopolize and drive out fair competition the gaps in wealth begin to appear. (which inherently happens because competition means less $$ for them)


Again, you're talking about economic policy.

Do the problems inherent in the US system justify shoplifting?  Yes or no?  If yes, how so?

Quote:
If you googled that definition I suggest you read more about its history because it stems from the idea of making money from money, which from most perspectives is seen as equally despicable as theft. I am all about a man working hard for a fair pay, thats a big part of my philosophy of life. However time has proven countlessly that our institutions of business and government will not follow that same ideology of giving a hard worker a fair wage.


Really?  I get a fair wage, because I don't settle for a shitty one.  You can all do this too.


Thats terrible advice. It took me years of school and skills training and some damn fine luck and well placed associates to land the job I've got that allows me to live a decent lifestyle. This was only because I was fortunate enough to have financial help and bollocks of luck along the way (they tend not too give many scholarships or bursaries to a person with average-decent grades and a certain family income bracket) . We can't all get that.

Yes the problems in the economic system completely help lay the ground work for shoplifting in its philosophical and moral context (Not just a fair trade, but a trade in their favor)

Don't get me wrong though...I'm not in favor of folks stealing from random stores to get off on some kind of thrill.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: Irdamage]
    #9203496 -

Shop your skills around is terrible advice?

Everyone is ultimately self-employed.  I enter in an agreement with an employer to provide my services for an agreed upon price.  If his price is too low, I sell my services to someone else.  If I can't get anyone to give me what I'm looking for, I find ways to increase the value of my time.  It works very well.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9203515 -

WhiskeyClone said:
If I can't get anyone to give me what I'm looking for, I find ways to increase the value of my time.  It works very well.


Essentially that is my argument at its core, if people cant get what there looking for, they will be forced to look else where,take the crap job, go on social services, or steal. Or in this case it sounds like your implying a private pharmacy of sorts :stoned:

But I think that this incorrect distribution of wealth and the system that entraps it is whats responsible for a majority of societies problems.

You don't get a whole lot of time to think about your life and your flaws and how you can change individually when your broke.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: Irdamage]
    #9203560 -

Quote:
if people cant get what there looking for, they will be forced to look else where,take the crap job, go on social services, or steal.


Forced, no.  Inclined perhaps.

Quote:
You don't get a whole lot of time to think about your life and your flaws and how you can change individually when your broke.


Are you kidding?  Everyone has time to examine their lives, especially the unemployed.  There is nothing more important for improving one's situation, IMO.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: lexmark]
    #9203726 -

I've found that it's easier to get away with breaking shit than stealing shit.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: CokedUpHobit64]
    #9203735 -

CokedUpHobit64 said:
Hoodies with big pockets in the front work good.  I steal batteries because its a fucking scam how much they charge.


Haha speaking of stealing batteries, before Bonnaroo this year my buddy stole us 64 D batteries to power our fans, lights and radios. It was a feat because every pack of 8 was bigger than a brick and weighed a lot more too.


--------------------

"It's hard to stay mad, when there's so much beauty in the world." -Lester Burnham

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9203814 -

Quote:
Do the problems inherent in the US system justify shoplifting?  Yes or no?  If yes, how so?


if you look back at the graph i posted a page back you'll see that the worker's pay stayed nearly the same, while at 50%+ corporate profits caused the CEO's paychecks to skyrocket 350%. in an equal and fair world the profits would have been divided more equally; this is how wage slavery happens.

how is this fair? how is 1 mans worth 350 times that of another man just because of a job title, is his job 350 times harder than the production worker? explain.

so is shoplifting just? i think so as long as you pay the costs of production and transportation as well as part of the salaries. if i get paid 10$ a day and i want to purchase something that costs 1$ to manufacture i should not have to pay 10$ for it.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9205686 -

Economics is natural. Humans thrive by getting shit done in groups rather than have one guy do it all. Do you think you can go out and make EVERYTHING that you use everyday and be happy with it?

We pay Bounty for their paper towel making-ness, and they charge a little more to cover the paper towel makers and to win some bread. Then Wal-Mart charges a little extra to gather those paper towels and sell it down the street from us, not to mention selling it next to the soap and mops you need.

It works!

Corporations are only unethical when they do bad things like hire painful labor, fudge numbers, steal, etc... Trying to make a living selling paper towels isn't evil.

Wages can be a little iffy across the board but generically they are okay. There are plenty of people willing to work at Fred Meyers $8 an hour no matter how much they moan. And no matter how annoying their job can be (I work in retail and know) it's not very hard. Nor should the workers get huge pay for their "honest work". If they want more money, move on. CEO's get paid so much because, even if it isn't always true, they make the hugest choices and therefore make the company the greatest amount of cash. If they weren't paid so much they might go somewhere else. And the money goes toward keeping them happy and healthy (though it's a bit excessive) so they are stress free coming to work everyday running a huge multi-billion dollar corporation. They don't just sit around you know.


As for shoplifting, it's bad and unjustifiable. But is it vile? No. There's a difference.


--------------------
Remember to cut your nails regularly.


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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: lexmark]
    #9205823 -

you shouldnt steal it shows lack of integrity


--------------------
  we could all use a little more sunshine.

:shrug: yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting.  not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin.  i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo. -tiny_rabid_birds

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: PyroBurns]
    #9205855 -

PyroBurns said:
We pay Bounty for their paper towel making-ness, and they charge a little more to cover the paper towel makers and to win some bread. Then Wal-Mart charges a little extra to gather those paper towels and sell it down the street from us, not to mention selling it next to the soap and mops you need.


yes but when your profits greatly exceed the production cost that is theft! you are essentially stealing my money when you over-charge something.

Quote:
It works!


it works great! if you're in the top 20% of the population.

Quote:
Corporations are only unethical when they do bad things like hire painful labor, fudge numbers, steal, etc... Trying to make a living selling paper towels isn't evil.


painful labor? isn't that what's happening now? the average worker is being paid pennies while the people at the top make all the money, again, this is wage slavery.

Quote:
Wages can be a little iffy across the board but generically they are okay. There are plenty of people willing to work at Fred Meyers $8 an hour no matter how much they moan.


they do so because they have no choice! they can either take a job for 8$ or one across the street for 7.50! do people at the top hear their moaning? no! because they know as slaves they don't get to choose their salaries, and offer enough so that people can at most survive. i guess people have become ignorant at the great division of class.

Quote:
And no matter how annoying their job can be (I work in retail and know) it's not very hard. Nor should the workers get huge pay for their "honest work".


come on, give the workers some credit! without them, there wouldn't be anything!

Quote:
If they want more money, move on.


move on to what? CEO? you gotta step on somebody's head to climb the human ladder.

Quote:
CEO's get paid so much because, even if it isn't always true, they make the hugest choices and therefore make the company the greatest amount of cash.


i'll gladly make hard decisions for you if you break your back for me 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Quote:
And the money goes toward keeping them happy and healthy (though it's a bit excessive) so they are stress free coming to work everyday running a huge multi-billion dollar corporation. They don't just sit around you know.


yes the money does go toward keeping they happy and healthy, that is the way they designed it, what you didn't say was that it is at the expense of others!

Quote:
As for shoplifting, it's bad and unjustifiable. But is it vile? No. There's a difference.


you cannot judge whether shoplifting is justified or not without looking at an individual case. let's say someone has a natural spring on their property, i'm extremely thirsty and there is no water source around for nearly 10 miles, there is a sign that says, "private property. stay out." i jump the fence and "steal" their water. am i a thief?


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #9205879 -

capitalism:



--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9205909 -

Wow, just wow. If you want to know what's wrong with the American dream, look at WhiskeyClone's posts.

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Re: I suck at shoplifting [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9205939 -

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:
if people cant get what there looking for, they will be forced to look else where,take the crap job, go on social services, or steal.


Forced, no.  Inclined perhaps.

Quote:
You don't get a whole lot of time to think about your life and your flaws and how you can change individually when your broke.


Are you kidding?  Everyone has time to examine their lives, especially the unemployed.  There is nothing more important for improving one's situation, IMO.


Well if you want to put it in those terms,  more people will become inclined to go out of their way to make a living. Might include breaking their own moral codes about theft.

I say again, theres not much time to think about your life in detail or much accuracy when your working your ass off. Perhaps at more than one job with a family to support. I don't know about you but at that point I can completely understand how someone might be tempted on the spot to shoplift.

Again, I'm not condoning it or saying that it is the moral or ethical best choice; but I simply can't condemn them on every occasion.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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