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InvisibleConservationist
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Registered: 12/02/06
Posts: 435
Why liberalism fails
    #8806244 - 08/21/08 05:00 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

When I saw the liberal paradise that is Austin, I realized that liberalism is basically parasitism. "If someone has x, and I don't, I deserve it, and I'll force them to share with social guilt"; after seeing that, and the complete social havoc -- where good people were not only ignored but socially persecuted, and vapid whores predominated and suffocated art and culture with their lies -- I left Austin and liberalism behind.

(There may be an honest liberalism. To me, when I was a liberal, it meant not allowing big pointless entities to rule over people in destructive ways. I'm thinking about all the people who got dicked over by their stupid jobs, all the toxic waste dumped into rivers, all the junk products that just ended up in landfills, all the overdeveloped areas where forests were sacrificed, etc. For me, liberalism meant restraining humanity's appetite with common sense. I soon learned that if you oppose power, however, you soon get people who oppose power for power's sake because they're powerless. They have no power in life and no control over their own appetites, so they hate anything that resembles power, but since they're weak, they don't attack directly but through whining. I was a classical liberal, which meant treat people fairly. That philosophy however decays un-gracefully into revenge for the underdog, hatred of excellence, and desire to turn the world into one uniform Safe(tm) place. I realized quickly how this plays into the hands of our leaders. It distracts our best people and sends them off to defend those who have failed at life, and then the activists in turn fail at life, so they spent their time fighting for the right to fail. It's a sick cycle but easily avoidable if you think it through: the problem isn't power, but people in power without a clue, and they're in power because all the failed people want pleasant illusions instead of reality. So if you're an honest liberal, don't take this column as a personal attack, or a political statement. I'm pointing out how liberalism commonly decays into self-importance, hipsterism and other problems, not trying to assault the emotional or psychological impetus behind liberal thinking.)

Austin is the hipster capital of the world, in many ways. I've been to Seattle and to San Francisco, to L.A. (Silver Lake) and to Mizzoula, MT, all of which are hipster-havens. But Austin hipsters have the city locked down. Under the guise of fighting the man, you're supposed to be weird and freaky and do whatever the man doesn't expect. But you go back to work the next day, having learned nothing. It's a good town to work food service until you're 42 and then become a regular, bitter writer on Alternet.org.

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=41

I can see the point because I haven't seen any good things come from liberalism. They advocate a paranoid revolutionary outlook. All their most vaunted accomplishments, like child labor laws, didn't fix the root of the problem and often came from people who today would be considered rightist. It's time to junk liberalism and find something better.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Conservationist]
    #8806312 - 08/21/08 05:16 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Hipsters?  :rofl:  You are basically saying you hate 'liberals' because you hate 'hipsters'.  Yours is a very juvenile perspective of the world.

Congratulations, you are a complete tool.  Please hang up, and try your call again (maybe when you get out of high school).



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Edited by Minstrel (08/21/08 07:42 PM)


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Conservationist]
    #8806458 - 08/21/08 05:59 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I live about an hour south of Austin, and can totally relate to what you're talking about.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinenumonkei
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Registered: 04/12/06
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Conservationist]
    #8806560 - 08/21/08 06:27 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

And...there may be an honest conservatism too. One that actually allows others to be rewarded based on merit instead of placement in predetermined hierarchies with a few exceptions for media-exposition purpose.

Or one that allows for privacy and smaller government, without expanding governmental role in a private citizen's life.

Or practice religious principles based on the order of kindness to others and values preached by this so called 'God of Men' Jesus, without stepping on rights of others and infringing upon the governmental statues originated by the founders of this country.

Or reading a fucking book, on the other side.

That last one applies to both parties.

Liberals often suck too. Anyone who devotes to a particular side of an argument without allowing for changes in this dynamic world is a tool. Both parties suck, one just happens to be stealing, while the other one wants to give away. But only to those already chosen and in the right circles.

Liberals suck. So do you. Keep that hatred flowing, it's doing great to help further an honest discourse on compromise in this country while giving fools on both sides fodder for selling shitty, useless books, to uninformed and prejudging fools.



~Monk


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: numonkei]
    #8806830 - 08/21/08 07:23 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

can see the point because I haven't seen any good things come from liberalism. They advocate a paranoid revolutionary outlook. All their most vaunted accomplishments, like child labor laws, didn't fix the root of the problem and often came from people who today would be considered rightist. It's time to junk liberalism and find something better.




Yea cause noted radical rabble rousers who spoke and organized about labor law like ending child labor and instituted the 8 hour day, Emma Goldman, Mother Jones and Helen Keller are so right wing they probibly accidentally came around to the other side of the spectrum. And clearly they didn't fix problems like instituting the 8 hour day, ending child labor and getting unions proper legal protection from acts of aggression from the employer or government.

You are more than just a tool your a nut.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8806920 - 08/21/08 07:36 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

power for powers sake is not "excellence"..but merely thuggery...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Annapurna1]
    #8806938 - 08/21/08 07:40 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Liberalism fails because it offers no incentive to succeed.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Conservationist]
    #8806966 - 08/21/08 07:45 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Liberalism fails because it offers no incentive to succeed.




no, that's communism. Liberalism in it's most social democratic state offers no punishments for failures, then balances it out (economically) with increased taxes for excessive success.

Though even those terms are far too basic to say they really embody either philosophy.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


Edited by ScavengerType (08/21/08 08:40 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8807003 - 08/21/08 07:52 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

then again..the only "incentive" conservatives offer is not a reward but a lack of punishment...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Annapurna1]
    #8807370 - 08/21/08 08:54 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

The beatings will continue until morale improves.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8807417 - 08/21/08 09:04 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

If someone is not negatively affected when hey fail, what is their incentive to succeed?


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Redstorm]
    #8807563 - 08/21/08 09:31 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
If someone is not negatively affected when hey fail, what is their incentive to succeed?




The direct monetary compensation for success would be the incentive to pursue it. Is that not entirely self-explanatory? You know the welfare life is not in any way as glamorous or fulfilling as you seem to think.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8807586 - 08/21/08 09:34 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I know it's not glamorous, but many people don't care about glamorous. They care about skating by without having to make any efforts.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Redstorm]
    #8807688 - 08/21/08 09:49 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I doubt it, as a punk rocker only 3 of my 60 friends from the scene that I've kept track of over the years went on to become traveling bums and the other 95% went on to be at least mediocre members of society and that's coming from a pool of people who's predispositioned toward becoming bums (I think anyway). Only one of them today is a welfare recipient and it's mental health welfare (he's the one who ate all the acid). Many people want to have jobs but cannot get them, even people I've known who were set for life on workers comp have wanted to be something more than a government welfare bum. Many welfare recipients also show a desire to get off welfare and get a job. Except women with children these people want to bum off men or the government forever, just cause they had an accident or two. Though arguably child rearing is "work."


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


Edited by ScavengerType (08/21/08 09:49 PM)


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8808161 - 08/21/08 11:15 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I live in a area filled with absolute poverty, those people who recieve welfare, they eke out their existence by selling pharmaceuticals from medicare, they sell food stamps, anything to buy a king cobra 32. They even rip off the local christian food pantry.

Most of them sit on their ass in delapidated trailers and neglect their children and never work a day in their life.

I used to live in a land of rosy tinged eye glasses but after living below the poverty line you start to realize how the government keeps a large population of cretins attached firmly to the teet of the government, all that taxes you pay is going to some fat 25 year old woman, with 7 kids by 6 dads, she watches jerry springer all day and collects "assistance" for just being a baby machine.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8808301 - 08/21/08 11:35 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

heh in Canada cut off for family allowance from the govt is 2 years from the last kid's birth and a limit of 3 kids. Sounds kinda fair to me.

Any system has those who play it for whatever they can get away with though. I might add that corporate welfare as with corporate fraud often constitute losses much greater than a large welfare system.

I don't have a rosy eyed picture of who these people are in fact I've booted a ex-crack dealing rat piece of hepatitis infected welfare skum out from squatting in a garage once only that he was stabbed to death in a month and I feel no guilt whatsoever (mainly cause he was all those things and a rat). I've lived in the skummy crack side of my town for over 5 years and worked in a job where I encountered these people regularly. The only difference is I think it's fair that they ask for welfare because there isn't enough jobs for them and nobody would hire some of them. Even if they just spend their welfare on booze it's only fair that society give them barely enough to survive.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8808466 - 08/22/08 12:00 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
  I might add that corporate welfare as with corporate fraud often constitute losses much greater than a large welfare system.
\




Source?

In the US I very much doubt this has ever been the case in the years since we've had welfare-type systems.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: johnm214]
    #8808592 - 08/22/08 12:29 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Chomsky says it in a few lectures and books but I suppose you want me to track down a statistical source totaling all the corporate welfare and dividing it by the amount of possible welfare recipients to show it is more than average welfare and prove that it is a true fact hmmmm? I think I can do this but you'll have to give me some time, additionally how do we define corporate welfare here? Any and all subsidies and bale outs of course, but what about when no-bid contracts are given to companies and shit like that how do I factor that? A Cost+25% contract is clearly not fair market value so how much of it is corporate welfare? 20%? It's kinda vague, but anyway I have no doubt I will find the data required to prove this claim.

I might add I did not say
Quote:

/


clearly your taking me out of context. :laugh:


Edited by ScavengerType (08/22/08 12:30 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8808625 - 08/22/08 12:37 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

clearly your taking me out of context. :laugh:




:lol:

I agree with your corporate welfare examples. Subsidies, bail-outs on the taxpayer dime, and no-bid contracts are all good examples.

It would be amazingly hard and time consuming to total this up, but I think it would make for a good research project for a thesis or publishable journal.

To figure the amount of waste in these contracts would probably be the most work, since there are billions of dollar in contracted services and goods. I'm guessing the best way to go about it would be by going line by line through the contracts and see what the quoted prices are compared to the market rates for the goods or services in question.

Like I said, this would be a ridiculous intensive project, but I think it may be worth looking into. I surely wouldn't expect someone to do this sort of work for a internet forum thread, though. :wink:


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Why liberalism fails [Re: Redstorm]
    #8808905 - 08/22/08 01:51 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

fortunately I didn't have too you see someone already gathered the data for me.

I found on the wikipedia that the CATO institute (a libertarian think tank) did a total sum of corporate welfare totaling the amount to be around $92b circa 2006 (link) .Then I checked welfare statistics "Source: Department of Health and Human Services" circa December 2005 (the beginning of 2006) (link it's the graph at the bottom of the article) and it listed "1,870,039" families on welfare at a share of corporate welfare of over 49 thousand a piece in comparison the welfare system could support more than 2 times the people welfare currently supports.

Though the CATO institute probibly didn't factor in no-bid contracts and other corporate hand holding that counts as fraud or corporate welfare it's a Grey line between the two. But I've decided to not look into it since I've realized that if you try to break it down there are a lot of other Grey areas even between personal and corporate welfare that the statement is a little over simplified.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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