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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Canada and Welfare
    #1172219 - 12/26/02 07:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"In a ruling issued December 19, Canada?s highest court rejected a Quebec woman?s claim that her constitutional rights had been violated during the late 1980s when she was forced to subsist on a welfare stipend of between $163 and $170 per month."

"By a 7 to 2 margin the Supreme Court ruled that the state had no constitutional obligation to help the destitute. Writing on behalf of the majority, Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin said the Charter?s Section 7 [S. 7] ?has been interpreted as restricting the state?s ability to deprive people of their right to life, liberty and security of the person. Such a deprivation does not exist here, and the circumstances of this case do not warrant a novel application of S.7 as the basis for a positive state obligation to guarantee adequate living standards.?

"Several provinces?Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia, and New Brunswick?had submitted arguments in support of the Quebec government. They noted that when the Charter was drafted in 1982, its framers?the then federal Liberal government and the provinces?had explicitly rejected the call for a ?Social Charter,? because their aim was to limit the power of government, not impose obligations on the state."

"The provinces supporting the Quebec welfare regime further argued that to enshrine a state obligation to provide minimum security of income would cost ?billions? and have long-term implications for everything from the supply of public housing to the cost of food, prescription drugs and heating."

For those who want to read more, check

http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=%7B007D11F3-FA55-4BAB-8542-A19DC1B53E15%7D

and

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/dec2002/can-d27.shtml

pinky


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Phred]
    #1172560 - 12/26/02 08:52 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Stuff's been getting worse and worse here as Canada drifts back away from socialism.

to enshrine a state obligation to provide minimum security of income would cost ?billions?

ooo. billions. They came up with 100 billion for tax cuts (for those who need them least)last budget.

Every time the intrest rate is raised, it costs billions. Yet it is raised to combat very low levels of inflation, sometimes less than 2 percent.

Keeping marijuana illegal cost billions.

I guess your happy about this pinky. It ought to make your moment. I guess you know I'm not. Socialists and capitalists. Will they ever agree? Ha Ha I love it.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Phred]
    #1172564 - 12/26/02 08:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

2 judges thought so at least.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1172600 - 12/26/02 09:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

William Robson, vice-president of the C.D. Howe Institute, said the ruling appeared to confirm Parliament's right to control the public purse. He said if the court had ruled in favour of constitutional payments it would have involved the raising of taxes to pay for it.




Godam CD Howe institute. Satan's own tongue are those freaks.

The CD Howe institute, named after CD Howe(the lone liberal cabinet minister who resisted the implementation of the welfare state) is nothing but a right wing think tank, completly funded by Bay Street, banks and big business. And by the people who own the National Post.

It in no way is objective, it always comes out with a rationale for implementing policies that favor the rich.





--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (12/26/02 09:32 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Phred]
    #1172648 - 12/26/02 09:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Just like people, no country is perfect.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: ]
    #1172689 - 12/26/02 09:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Except for you I'm sure.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Anonymous

Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1172852 - 12/27/02 02:19 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:tongue:


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1172932 - 12/27/02 04:59 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

The CD Howe institute, named after CD Howe(the lone liberal cabinet minister who resisted the implementation of the welfare state) is nothing but a right wing think tank

Amen carbon. Anyone who takes their conclusions seriously is mentally ill. If those assholes assured me it was raining I'd go to the window and check.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,262
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: ]
    #1175650 - 12/28/02 05:06 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Just like people, no country is perfect.




Ive thought about this statement for a while now, and I would have to agree with you fully. America has its downfalls, but, we arent the only country with them! People are always so against American ways, when you are just lookign at the bad. Be optimistic with yourself and people around you. This will lead to a healthier and happier lifestyle :wink:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: angryshroom]
    #1175848 - 12/28/02 07:04 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)


Be optimistic with yourself and people around you. This will lead to a healthier and happier lifestyle

This coming from someone called "AngryShroom"?  :smile: 


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,380
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Phred]
    #1176436 - 12/29/02 04:25 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Some chick trying to sue the government for not giving her enough welfare. Total BS.

Welfare in Canada is a joke. Not because it doesn't do anything, but because it's just so damn easy to get. I knew a person when I was younger. She was in school full time and was collecting unemployment, OSAP, and welfare to boot. She lived in an apartment with friends so that she didn't have to pay more than $100/month. She was scamming the govt for everything they had.

Did she deserve it? No. Does anyone on welfare deserve it? In my opinion...no. But I do think welfare should exist, anyway. Canada's socialist tendancies are one of my favorite things about the country. When you're down, the govt will help you out. HELP YOU OUT. That doesn't mean they should sit there and give you cash as long as you want, just because you don't want to go get a job. That's stealing, from all of us taxpayers who do have jobs.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: trendal]
    #1176447 - 12/29/02 04:43 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

But that's exactly what happens. People get these handouts, get used to having them and want more and more.

Welfare should have never been created.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Phred]
    #1176493 - 12/29/02 05:28 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

She was scamming the govt for everything they had.

I wouldn't panic too much about someone getting an extra 50 bucks a month. I'd worry about the big corporations creaming off 100 billion every year in corporate welfare. Try and see the bigger picture.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Xlea321]
    #1176508 - 12/29/02 05:40 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

While there are no doubt some corps who get tax breaks and subsidies they shouldn't, they at least produce jobs for people and products people can use. Welfare recipients produce nothing (other than another generation of welfare recipients) and are of no value to society as a whole.

Now... if on the other hand, instead of just giving them checks you give them a paint brush or a broom and pay them minimum wage to clean, you MIGHT get me to think there's a use for welfare. As it stands now, all welfare does is create an ever growing drain on those who work for a living.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (12/29/02 05:41 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1176510 - 12/29/02 05:42 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Few facts:

Spending for corporate welfare programs outweighs spending for low-income programs by more than three to one: $167 billion to $51.7 billion.

Total federal spending on a safety net for the poor costs the average taxpayer about $400 a year, while spending on corporate welfare programs costs the same taxpayer about $1400 a year. (source: Congressional Budget Office figures)

In the last Congress, spending for the needy absorbed the majority of spending cuts, while corporate welfare spending was barely touched. Over 90% of the budget cuts passed by the last Congress cut spending for the poor programs that ensure food for the needy, housing for the homeless, job training for the unemployed, community health care for the sick.

Only 3.9% of total federal outlays go to programs that solely benefit poor people.

Individuals and families must demonstrate need to receive benefits, while corporations with billions of dollars in annual income remain on the federal dole.

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/congress_corporate_welfare.HTM



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Xlea321]
    #1176714 - 12/29/02 08:06 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Simply stateing the dollar amounts is simplistic. How many jobs were created by (as you describe it) corporate welfare? How many people were able to find jobs because of this as opposed to how many people would have had to stand in a line at the welfare office because there would be no jobs?

I'd rather see the money go to the corps. The jobs they supply support not only their workers but help keep the local economy moving. And what of the workers self respect? Which helps it more? Handouts or jobs? And as to which helps the finances more.... many, if not most, jobs pay better than welfare anyway.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,380
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1177852 - 12/29/02 05:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Now... if on the other hand, instead of just giving them checks you give them a paint brush or a broom and pay them minimum wage to clean, you MIGHT get me to think there's a use for welfare. As it stands now, all welfare does is create an ever growing drain on those who work for a living.




Actually I think we have work-fare now, where in order to get welfare you have to have a job as well (and I think they give you one). Anyone know anything about this?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Xlea321]
    #1177899 - 12/29/02 06:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I'd worry about the big corporations creaming off 100 billion every year in corporate welfare.

Welfare is not a justifiable use of taxes, whether the recipient is a corporation or an individual. Corporate "welfare" is wrong, pure and simple. The only legitimate use for tax dollars is to fund the legitimate functions of government: police, judicial and penal system, military. That's it, that's all.

The court in Canada ruled 7-2 that financial support by the State is not a right. If someone were to bring a case of corporate welfare before the same court, in order to be consistent they would have to rule the same way -- against the corporation's "right" to government financial assistance.

pinky



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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Phred]
    #1178372 - 12/29/02 10:35 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Welfare is not a justifiable use of taxes, whether the recipient is a corporation or an individual

If some single mother has the choice between starving to death or getting welfare I want her fed. That's what I call a society worth living in. You might want to see people dying in the street, I don't. You judge a society on how it treats it's most vulnerable members.

Welfare to corporations with billions in the bank can never be justified.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Canada and Welfare [Re: Phred]
    #1178413 - 12/29/02 11:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Welfare is not a justifiable use of taxes, whether the recipient is a corporation or an individual. Corporate "welfare" is wrong, pure and simple. The only legitimate use for tax dollars is to fund the legitimate functions of government: police, judicial and penal system, military. That's it, that's all.






pinksharkmark, you'd get along well with my uncle...I'm truly amazed...

Maybe you are my uncle!

Like, c'mon man!

Can't society be a bit like a family? Are we all not bros and sisters? Shit, our houses(Canada, USA, other rich countries) can easily afford to help out the less fortunate...

Welfare and the like clearly help to eliminate the motivation to commit crime, therefore reduce crime, and reduce society's prison costs. I know the right wing only values their own personal gain...that's why I bring that up.


You probably don't care about this, but welfare and other social programs tend to reduce the level of suffering born by the poor, disadvantaged, elderly.

I'm sure your concerned about the "distortions" this brings on your pristine market. Your bloody market, the one that's reported to be the liberator of civilization, if we'd all just submit to it. What a farce.



You think the government should only be involved in property protection. Law and order. And if you think that, your saying a democratic force has no place day to day running of the country's trade systems(market).

Your idea of a society seems to me harsh and cold. A jungle. I want fellowship, not Darwinism....








--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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