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Re: The Assumption of Randomness [Re: DieCommie]
    #8788265 -

Can you shoot me some links with regards to Bell's 'no hidden variables' theory?  Definitely sounds like interesting reading.

Now, I'm no expert on quantum mechanics, but the absolute quality of your statement that we can never predict when an atom will decay still bothers me.  By definition, there is no such thing as proof in science--a current scientific theory is the one that has held up thus far to the evidence and hasn't been disproved yet, but there's nothing to stop new evidence from popping up tomorrow and completely invalidating the theory.  Our current mathematical framework that we use to model reality might incorporate no means for us to predict when decay will occur, but this hardly implies an ABSOLUTE statement that no matter what, prediction is impossible. In fact, such a statement is illogical in that no scientific theory can prove anything about the universe.

Sure, according to the current and most commonly accepted Copenhagen interpretation, reality is fundamentally probabilistic.  But this is only a theory, and it is possible (but unlikely, I'll grant you) that a future Theory of Everything might be able to overcome this superficial uncertainty.  And in fact, when one realizes that the micro-scale randomness of the universe DOES in fact coalesce into observable trends at the macro-scale (Newton's laws emerging from probabilistic chaos), it seems intuitive that there has to be some kind of structure present at the micro-scale, even though we haven't found it yet.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The Assumption of Randomness [Re: mofo]
    #8788405 -

You can read about hidden variable theory on wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_Theorem

Im not going to pretend to be an expert about it, Im absolutely not and barely understand it.  : )  It requires quite a bit of training to understand.  Basically scientists in the past kept trying to explain quantum probability with 'hidden variables' that cause the particle to act one way or another.  But these theories have all been shown to be inconsistent with experiment.  Early in quantum the EPR paradox was supposed to illustrate the fundamental flaw, but Bell developed 'Bell's Inequality' and showed that only if it is satisfied can a local theory be accepted.  It has always been shown to be violated.  http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/bells_inequality.html

From all I have read and learned I am satisfied to a very high degree of certainty that fundamental interactions and processes, like radioactive decay, are inherently random.  I acknowledge you cant 'prove' this, but its a highly corroborated, studied and respected interpretation of quantum mechanics.  No other hypotheses where interactions are determinant stands up to experiment.


Again, Im not well versed in this.  Next semester will be the first time I get formally educated in the EPR paradox.

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Re: The Assumption of Randomness [Re: DieCommie]
    #8788870 -

DieCommie said:
The random value for the seed can be gotten by the thermal fluctuations in the chip, which are random



Thermal fluctuations are random? Truly random? :confused::wink:

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Re: The Assumption of Randomness [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #8788999 -

Here is a web site where you can generate true random numbers from atmospheric fluctuations.  http://www.random.org/

It gives a little explanation...  http://www.random.org/randomness/
Quote:
A really good physical phenomenon to use is a radioactive source. The points in time at which a radioactive source decays are completely unpredictable, and they can quite easily be detected and fed into a computer, avoiding any buffering mechanisms in the operating system. The HotBits service at Fourmilab in Switzerland is an excellent example of a random number generator that uses this technique.




Also..
Quote:
Undoubtedly the visually coolest approach was the lavarand generator, which was built by Silicon Graphics and used snapshots of lava lamps  to generate true random numbers.


  :vaped:



Here is the long technical analysis of it that I sure as hell havent read.
http://www.random.org/analysis/Analysis2005.pdf
But the very beginning is interesting
Quote:
Random numbers are crucial ingredients for a whole range of applications – including cryptography,
simulation, gaming, sampling and aesthetics - and their consumption is rapidly increasing. (Section 3.2)
There are essentially two types of random number generators – true and pseudo. The fundamental
difference between the two types is that true random number generators sample a source of entropy
whereas pseudorandom number generators instead use a deterministic algorithm to generate numbers.
In comparing true random number generators and pseudorandom number generators each have their
merits and limitations. Completely random true random number generators have no periodicities, no
predictability, no dependencies, a high level of security and are conceptually nice. Nevertheless they are
slow, inefficient and costly, cumbersome to install, their sequences are not reproducible and they are
subject to manipulation. The reverse is true of pseudorandom number generators. Which is better
depends largely on the application. (Section 3.3)



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Re: The Assumption of Randomness [Re: mofo]
    #8789317 -

Interesting topic.
Is randomness really inherent in our physical world system, or has there to be an influence from outside the system to 'produce' 'real' randomness (non-causality).
But even then, the system could be enlarged to enclose the external cause into a new inherent system, so how would the cause stay 'external' then ?

I am not deep enough in quantum physics, but may there not be an inherent cause for the perceived randomness there, too ? Is there really something not predictable by any means ?
Hot topic, even for 'free' will. Thanks for the thoughts :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: The Assumption of Randomness [Re: DieCommie]
    #8789750 -

I've never met anything random in my life. As far as I know, random doesn't exist.

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Re: The Assumption of Randomness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8790057 -

BlueCoyote said:
Interesting topic.
Is randomness really inherent in our physical world system, or has there to be an influence from outside the system to 'produce' 'real' randomness (non-causality).
But even then, the system could be enlarged to enclose the external cause into a new inherent system, so how would the cause stay 'external' then ?

I am not deep enough in quantum physics, but may there not be an inherent cause for the perceived randomness there, too ? Is there really something not predictable by any means ?
Hot topic, even for 'free' will. Thanks for the thoughts :smile:





Does randomness truly exist?  Because if a random series is started out with a non random variable then it couldn't be said to be random, right?    Or is my thinking wrong on that?

So.......it seems to me that, ultimately, you are asking if there is a first cause?  I.E. the big bang, God, whatever.  Again, I say that these questions are pointless because this leads to the next question:  What is the cause of the first cause?  See?  Just leads to recursive thinking.  Maybe the question isn't exactly pointless, but I think it would be folly to dedicate any real span of time to its answer.  A universal sized can of worms is opened up. 

Have you ever read through Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach:  An Eternal Golden Braid?  Some insights to these questions on the nature of systems may be found within its pages.  I found it at my local library.    Be careful as it is one hell of a doozy to read.  I only got about half way through.  It is a very deep book.  I think I may check it out again and finish it.

And if reality is anything like what physics tells us, I'd say no to your last question.  I hold that causality is an illusion.  But I admit that my stance is founded more on belief rather than reason.


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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Re: The Assumption of Randomness [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #8791091 -

GEB: An Eternal Golden Braid is the shit.  Douglas Hofstadter's sequel, Metamagical Themas, wasn't quite as compelling, but does goes into all sorts of intriguing ideas like memetics, self-referential sentences, and the nature of consciousness. :thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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