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InvisibleDoctorJ
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assumptions vs uncertainty
    #3913821 - 03/13/05 11:58 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

I have always tried to avoid making assumptions in my thinking. Granted, I fail miserably at this sometimes, but I like to think I am getting better. One of the things that has taught me to avoid making assumptions is watching other people do it, and being struck by how moronic such behavior is.

People make false assumptions al the time. They don't question enough. They believe what they are told. They misinterpret signals and attribute too much worth to coincidences and 'omens'.

Uncertainty, on the other hand, is the cornerstone of good science. It is an attitude of humility, when one is willing to admit that he doesn't know everything. There will probably always be things that are out of our sight, factors we can't control or aren't even aware of. No one is beyond that, some people just think they are.

But even uncertainty itself can be a kind of faith. Many of my friends refuse to believe in God, and yet they don't realize that disbelief is in itself a belief, and thus entails the same logical contradictions. I find it quite amusing that the only logically defensible position in the God debate is agnosticism, which I think is God's way of telling us that the only rational position is irrational and based in chaos and confusion.

Anyway, Others can build castles based in assumptions which may or may not prove to be adequate foundations. Me, I will stay skeptical, keep thinking, change my beliefs often, and try to keep out of this karmic fracas as much as I can.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3913850 - 03/14/05 12:02 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Anyway, Others can build castles based in assumptions which may or may not prove to be adequate foundations.  Me, I will stay skeptical, keep thinking, change my beliefs often, and try to keep out of this karmic fracas as much as I can.




:handth: :handth:

Don't you make assumptions due to uncertainty? Or is it that you are uncertain such that you assume?

Yes.  (My answer)

I look at them as one in the same.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3913865 - 03/14/05 12:06 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

ur makin me dizzy
:nut:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3914294 - 03/14/05 01:50 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I have always tried to avoid making assumptions in my thinking. Granted, I fail miserably at this sometimes, but I like to think I am getting better. One of the things that has taught me to avoid making assumptions is watching other people do it, and being struck by how moronic such behavior is.

People make false assumptions al the time. They don't question enough. They believe what they are told. They misinterpret signals and attribute too much worth to coincidences and 'omens'.

Uncertainty, on the other hand, is the cornerstone of good science. It is an attitude of humility, when one is willing to admit that he doesn't know everything. There will probably always be things that are out of our sight, factors we can't control or aren't even aware of. No one is beyond that, some people just think they are.

But even uncertainty itself can be a kind of faith. Many of my friends refuse to believe in God, and yet they don't realize that disbelief is in itself a belief, and thus entails the same logical contradictions. I find it quite amusing that the only logically defensible position in the God debate is agnosticism, which I think is God's way of telling us that the only rational position is irrational and based in chaos and confusion.

Anyway, Others can build castles based in assumptions which may or may not prove to be adequate foundations. Me, I will stay skeptical, keep thinking, change my beliefs often, and try to keep out of this karmic fracas as much as I can.




This is my divine revelation, too.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3914430 - 03/14/05 02:20 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

saying "I don't know" was and still is a hard thing for me to do. It's like my ego wants to pipe in and say "I know"

It started with a really good mushroom trip. Part of it I have realized (at least for me) is wanting attention. To have others come in and say "I agree" or "you're right" Not only that, but when someone agrees, it keeps that assumption in my mind as truth.

i remember when I sat down and wrote down a lot of the beliefs that I held, and I started seeing how a lot of them contradicted each other. When this happened, my mind started deconstructing these assumptions I had even further. it got to a point where I was venturing into thought processes that I had previously ignored.

it was like a self contained box where I had previously felt comfortable, and now confusion set in.

As I sit now re-reading my post I wonder, "are assumptions the acting on uncertainty?"


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: kaiowas]
    #3915406 - 03/14/05 09:19 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

There are psychological forces at play here, mainly due to a rather lazy attitude on the part of these people who assume (call them "assumers").

The forces are the title of this post:

"Do I assume the 'truth'"
OR
"Do I remain uncertain of the 'truth'"

(assuming of course there is a truth in the matter at hand)

Most people will assume the truth, simply because this assumption allows them to forget the question and move on to something more appealing. (here's the AH HA! with comical mustache twirling and top hat!) "AH HA!" I say to these people, are you not falling into a trap by which you never know the truth, but always assume your thoughts ARE the truth? It is easy to assume but in almost all cases leads to the assumption becoming a doctrine for the "assumer".

The fault is not in assuming, BUT in indoctrinating your assumptions. It is fine to make assumptions ESPECIALLY in science (I assume that X does not act in this case, is a frequently used statement in science), however it is in the nature of a TRUE SCIENCE (not current science, it is a human endeavour after all!) to hold these assumptions as such, and not as a truth in the matter-in-hand.

So to sum up for those who've gotten lost (myself included! LOL):

People assume because its easier than thinking,
Which often leads to assumptions (by positive reinforcement often by others, sometimes by self, rarely by evidence) to become a doctrine over time,
This doctrine is then unchallengeable (and people get VERY VERY angry if you try) and the only way to turn them to the 'truth' of the matter is with great pains over long time, with much evidence.

So what I'm saying is:

It is not the assuming that is flawed, it is in CONTINUING to assume, and not doubt one's own assumptions that problems arise! :strokebeard:

Well that's my assumption of infallibility! :stoned::mushroom2:


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We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3915483 - 03/14/05 09:57 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

you know, I decided a long time ago that I was tired of helping people when all they do is stab me in the back. People don't understand me. They make assumptions, assumptions lead to misjudgements, misjudgements lead to misunderstanding, and misunderstanding leads to misdeeds.

Even the people who try to help me end up fucking shit up because they don't understand.

thats all I've ever wanted out of another person. Someone who cares and understands. I won't settle for anything less.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3915519 - 03/14/05 10:14 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Why do people refer to what they want from people without giving it a subject?

"Someone who cares and understands"

Cares about WHAT? Understands WHAT?

If you mean cares about you, and understands you, then you're in for a wait!

Someone who cares about you is easy to have, lots of people will care about you in your lifetime. Its the understanding part that's hard.

People are like icebergs, to understand the whole is almost impossible, it's huge for a start, and it's also very difficult to reach the depths. Most people won't try, of those who do few will make it all the way down. Really you want to keep the people who try around, cos they'll keep on trying!

That's my Eggshell of monkey-nuts! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3915527 - 03/14/05 10:17 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Its in people's best interest to understand me
:smile: :smile: :smile:

and if they don't care, well then fuck em.  They'll have no place in my kingdom. 


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Registered: 03/04/05
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3915547 - 03/14/05 10:31 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

There you are wrong.

It is in all peoples best interests to understand each other.

How can you expect to be understood when you do not seek to understand those you wish to know you?

In giving you shall recieve!

That's my kendal mintcake of doom! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3915849 - 03/14/05 12:51 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

uncertainty is an assumption.. ?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: Gomp]
    #3915863 - 03/14/05 12:54 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

we have to live with assumption - assumption is the processing of fragments into a whole picture.

in another thread we look at vision - the eyes provide a few colored dots - the brain processes data over time into an image that we treat like the real world.

it is already an assumption.

reality is just whatever we last assumed it to be.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3915934 - 03/14/05 01:09 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

a mirror can reflect reality, but we can not?

if an artist drew you, would he be wrong in saying the person on the drawing he made is you? :P

would this be different form you in a picture taken of you?

"A degree of defense laid in on beliefs, could make you who you are."
-Unknown :P

:sun:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: Gomp]
    #3915947 - 03/14/05 01:13 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

as an artist I would say that the picture is a thing unto itself.
the reflection in the mirror is an even more transient thing unto itself (though dependent on light hitting it)
here are some old paintings
in a new jpg which is a thing unto itself

yet connected to other things in various ways


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OfflineGomp
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3915977 - 03/14/05 01:21 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

life/the creator/this, is real, whats being creates, is fiction..?

we are god, god are all humans, i say this to myself, to you.. :wink:


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3916001 - 03/14/05 01:28 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

I have always tried to avoid making assumptions in my thinking

yes, I too work with the assumption that assumptions are to be avoided.


hey, wait


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: assumptions vs uncertainty [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3916768 - 03/14/05 04:58 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

PsilocinSam said:
There you are wrong.

It is in all peoples best interests to understand each other.

How can you expect to be understood when you do not seek to understand those you wish to know you?

In giving you shall recieve!

That's my kendal mintcake of doom! :stoned::mushroom2:




please teach me more, oh benevolent master :rolleyes:

in giving, I have only suffered for everyone else's benefit. 

get jaded. 


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Edited by DoctorJ (03/14/05 05:06 PM)


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