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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 204
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84499 - 04/06/00 04:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

ripper,
thanks for the camparison b/t vermiculite and straw. very well done.
i dunno one way or the other about your "stand-up" cake idea. im mostly interested in rye spawned straw substrate.
i would be interested in discussing straw and its function in a substrate more:
shroomgods straw tek recommends *layering* the rye grain and the straw. all the other straw teks ive seen just mix the two together. why would layering be desirbale? i cant think of why. could it somehow retain moisture better? have people tried both methods? thanks.
-daniel.

slowly regaining my senior memebr status...



--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


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InvisiblePrellgott
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Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 383
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84501 - 04/06/00 04:42 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

mmm since I haven't used straw (and don't plan to do) I can only add my experience with casings..and I even tested your idea once...

I my experience the casings produce, less but biggger shrooms that way but overall a lower yield...I you can work calean you should crumble the cakes..

An other point I would add you haven't mentioned is light, air and temp...

I am not so far in figuring out which exact effects on the shrooms are caused by changing theese parameters, but if noticed that different strains behave different, and form different mushrooms if you change that paramters........for example my EQ seem to like more intense light and lower temps...
while my sterile, max yield strain loves less intense light....

light has a strong effect on shroom size I am quite sure about that...with weak light the Equs don't get very big...the other strain doesn't get very long if light is too strong..

my tip for casings...add a some inch thick very wet just perlite layer to your casing (four layer sandwich)

good job Ripper
der Prell



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i'm back


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Anonymous

Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84502 - 04/06/00 05:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ripper, I know you have doubts about vermiculite. But your doubts are based on two assumptions. The first being that vermiculite has some toxins within it that could be detrimental for human consumption, and number two that the mushroom mycelium are able to take in these toxins.

Vermiculite is simply minerals of hydrous silicates resulting usually from expansion of the granules of mica at high temperatures to give a lightweight highly water-absorbent material. Minerals aren't treated with chemicals before they're shipped to the stores unless they are part of some fertilizer. So, all in all there isn't much to be afraid of. But, then again, you can always let yourself be afraid of anything.

I'm a little cake tech biased simply because it's the only way I've ever grown them. And I've lost 1 jar to contamination out of the 50+ I've done in the past. Another good thing about cakes is that I hardly ever get contamination on them when they are uncased in my humidity chamber. But, I almost always get contaminations in the later flushes when I've cased them. Not that I have anything against casing, because I just cased 9 cakes about 5 days ago and I know I'm going to get a fat flush. But the point is that having uncut cakes seems to keep the contams out, and the cakes live longer. And, from what I've experienced is that the older your cakes the more potent the shrooms are that come from them.

Another reason I'm cake biased is that I can't readily get a hold of some straw or the means to shred and prepare it. It's also fun to experiment with cakes using different combinations of substrates, and figuring out what seems to work best. You can also give fully colonized cakes away as gifts. I gave one of them to my sister in a small "shroomarium" I made using a two liter plastic soda bottle. She got about 3 flushes from that cake and didn't know damn thing about it except that she needed to air it out every once in awhile.

Nothing, against your straw spawned with rye, I just wanted to give you my perspective. I'm sure I could get very fat and potent flushes off of using it, but like I said, I don't have the means right now.

Thanx, and keep posting intresting subjects.


------------------
Trying to rationalize with an irrational person, is in itself irrational!



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Anonymous

Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84503 - 04/06/00 09:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

quote:
Now a downside of using straw is this, you can end up not using enough rye grain and you get small mushrooms that are fucking weak in potency. So I STRONGLY suggest to anyone using straw to use 4 cups per sq. ft.(4 cups before coooking).

Innoculation rates to bulk substrates are best done at 20%-25% spawn to substrate for achieving a thick and complete mycelial mat.

Rates can be done as low as 10% spawn to substrate ratio for those who have gotten their techniques down to a science, but any lower and you are into the "mad scientist/failure" zone in most cases.



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Anonymous

Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84504 - 04/06/00 09:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

quote:
Vermiculite is simply minerals of hydrous silicates resulting usually from expansion of the granules of mica at high temperatures to give a lightweight highly water-absorbent material. Minerals aren't treated with chemicals before they're shipped to the stores unless they are part of some fertilizer. So, all in all there isn't much to be afraid of. But, then again, you can always let yourself be afraid of anything.

Add to that "asbestos fibers!" if we are to take that newspaper article seriously. If breathing it rips your lungs to shit, I wonder what eating it does?



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Anonymous

Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84505 - 04/06/00 11:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Learner, So I guess your assuming the mushrooms are somehow absorbing asbestos fibers. Now I havn't ever tried eating the cakes themselves, but if I did I might have to worry about that. I'm pretty sure that the fibers are structurally too large to be absorbed by the mycelium. Though don't quote me.

Now to clear things up, we need to find some factual research evidence of what things have been found that can be absorbed from the substrate into the mushrooms themselves. themselves.

------------------
Trying to rationalize with an irrational person, is in itself irrational!



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Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84506 - 04/07/00 04:04 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Asbestos is dagerous when inhaled, not when found in the medium used to grow foods.

------------------
-From a registered Mad Scientist

"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obiwan Kenobi (also a Mad Scientist tm)



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblerebelmoon
enthusiast
Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 204
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84507 - 04/07/00 06:14 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

who cares about vermiculite - or cakes, for that matter? we all know that cakes fruit worse. lets talk about straw substrates!
can anyone tell me why shroom god would layer straw and spawn instead of mixing it together? maybe since his tek didnt shred the straw that it is just easier to layer. hmmm...
-daniel.

[This message has been edited by rebelmoon (edited April 07, 2000).]



--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 204
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84508 - 04/07/00 06:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

% grain spawn to straw:
learner, where did you get that info?
i just worked out what rippers proposed "4 cups per sq. ft. (4 cups before coooking)" is percentage wise.
i have read that bulk substrates should be at least 6 inches thick but that it is better laid around 8-10 inches.
to convert, i used 1 cubic foot = 120 cups.
if we assume that rippers stats are for a 6 inch substrate, then a a sq ft of substrate is 60 cups volume.
1 cup of rye grain works out to about 2 cups cooked grain.
so, 4 cups of uncooked grain (8 cooked) would be 2/15th of a 1' by 1' by 6" amount of substrate. this is 13.33% grain spawn.
to achieve learners stats of 20% - 25% grain spawn, you would need 6 - 7.5 uncooked cups (12 - 15 cooked).
this is the parameter for a 1 sq ft and 6 inch deep substrate bed.
so if you have about a cup of dry grain per jar, thats about 6-8 jars per sq ft. seems a bit much to me.
-daniel.

[This message has been edited by rebelmoon (edited April 07, 2000).]



--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


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Offlinevts1134
member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 159
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84509 - 04/07/00 02:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If straw is mearly a non-nutrinitve mycellium "carrier" then I am interested in knowing why use it at all? If the only reason is to get a larger area for the shrooms to grow on then why not just use cased grain spawn alone? Is price and contamination probibility the only benifits of using straw rather than using a comprable amount of cased grain spawn?


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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 204
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84510 - 04/07/00 04:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

like ripper said, straw retains water which is very important for fruiting.
-daniel.


--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


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Anonymous

Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84511 - 04/07/00 04:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

quote:
learner, where did you get that info

Paul Stamets.

[This message has been edited by The Learner (edited April 07, 2000).]



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Offlinevts1134
member
Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 159
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84512 - 04/07/00 05:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The learner>> as does casing material. I have heard of people "sanwiching" there substraight inbetween casings, wouldn't this serve the same purpose?


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Anonymous

Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84513 - 04/07/00 09:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I was refering to spawn-to-hay innoculation rates. Not on the fruiting phase yet. However you reminded me, sandwiching can be applied to innoculating the hay. A thin layer of hay, spawn, another thin layer of hay, more spawn, another thin layer of hay and so on.


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InvisibleRipper
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Registered: 01/20/00
Posts: 223
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84514 - 04/07/00 09:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

VTS1134: well there's a few distinct advantages to using straw. Mainly it doesn't contaminate very easily for most of us. If pastuerized correctly straw is fairly forgiving. As far as it only being a mycelium carrier/using a sandwich casing heres the problem. At maximum the mycelium network can only take in 50% of moisture from the casing layer, so the straw actually becomes interlocked in the mycellia network providing water and cellulose.
=)


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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 204
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84515 - 04/07/00 09:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

layers/sandwhiching - thats what i was referring to w/ shroom gods straw tek. does the straw work better in layers or when mixed together with the spawn?? anyone?!?
-daniel.


--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


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Anonymous

Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84516 - 04/08/00 01:47 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Rebelmoon - I have heard of both methods, I think if you mycelium is strong it would grow through very quickly. The advavtage to layering would probably be that the mycelial mass is centralized on one level, therfore when the shrooms go from pins to fruitbodies, they'd likely be able to pull more mycelium from the mass under the straw (just a guess).


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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 204
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84517 - 04/08/00 04:04 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

thanks, dirtydog. ill probably try both mehtods in the next couple months and see which works best.
-daniel.


--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


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OfflinePanTrop
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Registered: 11/03/99
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Loc: Washington
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84518 - 04/13/00 05:55 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I dont know which is better as I will be working with Rye and straw for the first time but Staments mentions nothing about layering and only about mixing it in with the straw...here is my reason for thinking mixing is better.....

When spawning you want as many innoculation points as possable to speed the rate of colonization as well as evenness.....each kernal of rye when mixed in the straw is an innoculation point hence aiding in colonization....I cant speak for Rip, but Im sure this is along the same lines as why he thinks mixing is better as well....Again Rip good post...keep em up!



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" My mind dont work if my spine dont jerk!"


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Anonymous

Re: Getting the most out of your substrate!
    #84519 - 04/13/00 12:20 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Check out GGMM, on the Paddy Straw section.

Layering is not just a bottom layer of straw, a middle layer of spawn, a top layer of straw... what is that? sandwiching?

But continues on (note all of this is moot, unless you are in larger bulks)

X=STRAW
O=SPAWN

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

This gives the spawn very even distribution and they only have to travel up/down a few inches so complete colinization times will be extremely rapid.

Of course you probably will have to move to Thailand or something to do something this big in your back yard.

[This message has been edited by The Learner (edited April 13, 2000).]



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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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