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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92477 - 02/13/00 11:54 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Heheheh, this is a good thread and debate. Cheers to Ripper for bringing this up. My 2 cents. 50/50 is a lazy-ass cheap casing for people who can't be bothered doing it properly. I am lucky enough to have gotten photocopies of one of Paul Stamets first ever books, entitled, Psilocybe Mushrooms & Their Allies. This is a small softcover, about 25 pages in total. I don't have the publishing date but this book is pretty old, back when Stamets was growing and experimenting maily with psilocybes.

Anyways, guess what. Even back then this is his casing mix:

2 1/2 parts peat
2 parts verm or perlite
2 parts fine sand
2 parts cruched oyster shell

Now the Magic Mushroom Growers Guide calls for this which is essentially the same.

7.5 litres peat
3.5 litres fine verm.
4 litres fine washed sand
2 litres calcium carbonate

Now this is the only mix I have ever used
and have gotten extremely high yields
and quality tasting shrooms. I also only ever use organic rye grain kernels. You eliminate a lot of the moisture (verm) problems just by using rye grain since when
you sterlize it the kernels swell with water. The only thing I have yet to use is wheat straw/manure. But if you look at any of Stamets books you'll see that the pics of cubies on these substrates are large and densely grown, yummy! So in conclusion, stick with what the experts found through more experimentation than you will ever have time to complete. Sure try playing around with the mix, but don't chop ingredients and then expect the same results. Just my opinion. ; )



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InvisibleAnubisRonin
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Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 248
Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92478 - 02/13/00 06:31 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

When considering eliminating vermiculite from my substrate I realized a plus that using vermiculite in the substrate has... and thats lowering the cost... if you use say straight whole grain brown rice or quinoa or bird seed all the time its going to cost you more than if you are mixing it with vermiculite... maybe not A lot more but it will be more.. atleast in my area.


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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92479 - 02/14/00 10:38 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

my 2?-

I totally agree that vermiculite might have no impact other than moisture on shrooms, but the point that might be missed here is how it's processed. If most people use vermiculite for garden use, the random minerals/ chemicals that are in it from processing steps would just flush out into the ground, however the ways that it is used for mushroom cultivation keep all (if any) extra minerals/chemicals in the cakes, thus they could get "soaked up" into the mushrooms. Thus, my advice, Ripper, if you say that the water that the verm is soaked in gives off a nasty taste, try flushing the verm with some water, get all the extras that are in there out, and make sure all that's left is pure verm. If it is just the verm, and of course vermiculite is insouluble, when you put it into water, there should be nothing else in "vermiculite water" except for water.. but back to my point. Does anyone know how Vermiculite is produced. I think this is key, because who knows if it is exposed to anything other than vermiculte that would make shrooms taste bad or encourage contams. ....I've babbled long enough

-peace



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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92480 - 02/14/00 11:40 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Vermiculite is a member of the phyllosilicate group of minerals, resembling mica in appearance. It is found in various parts of the world. The details given here relate to the deposits mined in the Palabora region of North-Eastern Transvaal. Palabora vermiculite is basically a hydrated phlogopite mica which has the remarkable ability to expand to many times its original volume when heated, a property known as exfoliation.
After being mined from open cast pits by drilling and blasting, flake-shaped particles of Palabora vermiculite are separated from the host rock by a process of crushing and air separation. Ore is blended from various parts of the mine in order to maintain a consistent and reliable product. The final concentrate is graded, ready for shipment all over the world.
Being non-combustible and insoluble in water or organic solvents, vermiculite is safe and easy to handle, making it suitable for a wide range of different applications. Due to its inherent stability, vermiculite is being used increasingly in applications where health and safety are of prime importance. Click the applications button to discover some of the many innovative applications for vermiculite.


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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92481 - 02/14/00 11:41 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Vermiculite is a member of the phyllosilicate group of minerals, resembling mica in appearance. It is found in various parts of the world. The details given here relate to the deposits mined in the Palabora region of North-Eastern Transvaal. Palabora vermiculite is basically a hydrated phlogopite mica which has the remarkable ability to expand to many times its original volume when heated, a property known as exfoliation.
After being mined from open cast pits by drilling and blasting, flake-shaped particles of Palabora vermiculite are separated from the host rock by a process of crushing and air separation. Ore is blended from various parts of the mine in order to maintain a consistent and reliable product. The final concentrate is graded, ready for shipment all over the world.
Being non-combustible and insoluble in water or organic solvents, vermiculite is safe and easy to handle, making it suitable for a wide range of different applications. Due to its inherent stability, vermiculite is being used increasingly in applications where health and safety are of prime importance. Click the applications button to discover some of the many innovative applications for vermiculite.


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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92482 - 02/14/00 05:40 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

related to my last post - taken from http://www.vermiculite.org/VHSE.pdf

Vermiculite and Health Aspects Associated with
Potential Contaminants:

Vermiculite and other ore bodies can contain a variety of
associated minerals such as mica, quartz, feldspar, etc.
The associated minerals are unique to a particular
deposit and, in some cases, may include minerals which
could pose a health risk if present in significant quantities.
In most countries, manufacturers are required to publish
and make available Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS).
These sheets will typically identify any hazards
associated with the material and also provide information
on safe handling and proper disposal.
Asbestos fibres are a potential risk to health, and in the
past there has been some vermiculites contaminated with
trace amounts of asbestiform material. Vermiculite ore
bodies currently in use by the major producers, do not
pose a health risk when used in accordance with the
manufacturer's MSDS. However, there are numerous
sources of commercial vermiculite available in the world
today and it is important for the end user to understand
test data from a particular manufacturer.
Such testing should take into account both mineralogical
and morphological differences between asbestos and
non-asbestos varieties of the same amphibole or
serpentine mineral.
Finally, it is important to note that the issue of potential for
fibrous asbestos contamination exists for a wide range of
naturally occurring materials. Included in this list are
materials such as sand, clay, and gypsum. Due to this,
and other studies referencing background levels of
asbestos in the environment, it is inappropriate to state
that any naturally occurring material is asbestos free. Any
reference to trace asbestos levels must include (as a
minimum): analysis technique, detection limit, and
definition of asbestos used in the study.

and from http://www.vermiculite.org/VINA.pdf

Vermiculite ore deposits, like most other rocks, contain an assemblage of other
minerals besides the vermiculite (Addison and Davies 1990). There may be major
components such as feldspars, pyroxenes, amphiboles, carbonates, and quartz, as
well as minor components such as phosphates, iron oxides, titanium oxides and
zircon (Atkinson et al 1982). The full assemblage at any one mine is determined by
the nature of the original rock types from which the vermiculite ores were formed. So
the vermiculites formed from ultramafic rocks such as phlogopite pyroxenites and
serpentinites may contain chrysotile, tremolite and anthophyllite in veins or as altered
relics of olivine, pyroxene and mica. Vermiculite ores formed from gneisses or
granites are more likely to contain feldspars and quartz; vermiculite formed from
carbonates may contain magnesite, calcite and other carbonates, and phlogopite.
The proportions of the different accessory minerals may vary depending upon which
part of the ore body is being worked, and the proportions in the final product may
also vary with the grade of the product.

sorry for the page clutter, but any mad scientist must document his sources...



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InvisibleAnubisRonin
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Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 248
Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92483 - 02/14/00 05:55 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah??? I dont know about you kids but that isnt appealing to me... Ripper thanx for bringing this up because I'm looking for another way with my substrates now... I dont think its a big deal to use vermiculite in casings, but in the substrates The mushroom grows and lives off that and surely it absorbs some of the funkyness from the vermiculite.... MadMax5 thanx for that little info.. it added backbone to this thread.


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InvisibleRipper
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Registered: 01/20/00
Posts: 223
Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92484 - 02/14/00 06:20 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

That being said about Vermiculite, I feel as though the original hypothesis in my thread has been validated. Not only has vermiculite been agreed upon by individuals to harbor cobweb mold, it may also contain other things deeply embedded.

The general use of vermiculite in gardening is not in large quantities like those used in substrates typically. Vermiculite has been found to contain all sorts of unknowns. When working in a laboratory style environment it just doesn't make sense to use something that can harbor so much!

As far as people bad mouthing peat, I've checked my casings again, its been almost one week since application, with no pastuerization, and I have got no contamination yet. I used the following formula in my casing, I know that the lime that I used is not a very great idea, but the concentration was miniscule.
10 Quarts Peat
20 Grams Chemical Lime(used for curing concrete)
1 Gallon Water
1/4 Cup Hydrogen Peroxide
I sifted the peat in a spaghetti collander first, this took out dirt and sticks, so I was left with a fluffy peat. I used one of the large bags you can get at Home Depot for like $10(Much more economical then Schultz). I mixed the water and hydrogen peroxide in a pesticide sprayer I obtained at Home Depot, it was $10. I then sprayed and turned the peat over and over again, until the gallon of water was in it, it was fluffy, but had a good amount of water in it...

As far as substrates are concerned, we should have some results using straight rye grain in 1/2 pint jars pretty soon. I'll keep you guys informed.

Now that we've determined that vermiculite is a bad idea, we need to start a new thread about ways to avoid using it. I will be compiling information regarding the pros and cons of vermiculite in substrates and casings. What I need from you people is some ideas in this thread, I'll try to post the new thread sometime this week =) Thanks for all of your support regarding this matter, its nice to see you guys thought for yourself and got the facts straight =)



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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92485 - 02/15/00 01:01 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

My god, what are you the vermiculite police? You certainly have yet to convince me of anything. Nothing of your original hypothesis has been validated in any way..

Your original hypothesis being that vermiculite "CAUSES" the bad taste in mushrooms.. (first of all this is subjective and thus improvable) also that it "CARRIES" the cobweb mold... Not just that it is suceptable to it, but that it carries it...

NOPE... The problem is that the vermiculite is STERILIZED... Sterilize your peat and you will have the same problem with it.

It is just susceptible to it the way it comes from the store.. The heat treatment during its production destroys any benifial bacteria that may have been there, as well as the cobweb mold. It just doesn't come from the vermiculite.. The vermiculite is just an easy target in that it holds water and creates a good environment.. Peat would as well if it didn't have bacterias that help defend it against cobweb mold... But if you sterilize it COMPLETELY, and subject it to the same conditions, you will run into the same problem... This does in a way help your ultimate point of why you like peat better, but you are a long way from proving your hypothesis. I think you just don't realize what your "hypothesis" is.

You say :"The general use of vermiculite in gardening is not in large quantities like those used in substrates typically. "

What the hell are you talking about? Bags and bags of vermiculite are used in gardening. YES, SOMETIMES ONLY VERMICULITE!

What am I saying? I am saying your whole Shabang here is ridiculous.. I am not saying it is unworthy of investigation. I am saying you are jumping to conclusions stating things as fact with nothing but speculation to back it up... You seem poised to launch this "Just say no to vermiculite" campain (and it seems to have a lot in common with other just say no campains). Take it easy and try this "thinking" you mention. Prove it with side by side comparisons prepared at the same time, innoculated with the same innoculant, grown in the same terrarium, etc... Then report what you find. Not this Antivermiculite propaganda. I personally don't care one way or the other why you have this intense hated of the demon vermiculite, but I just can't stand propaganda with a spoonful of "think for yourself"

ThE JafF



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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92486 - 02/15/00 01:46 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

sorry, I wasn't trying to drop any sort of "bomb", but I am mostly interested in if vermiculite gives off a different taste. I think that people would be in agreement that shrooms grown on different substrates and even casings would taste different, another thread concerning a "taste test" of sorts would be helpful in determining what to grow on for the tastiest shrooms, because, as you know, we have to eat them sometime :wink:


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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92487 - 02/15/00 02:01 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I was refering to Ripper's last post, but I completly agree with the idea of doing taste tests and even experiments using radioactive tracers etc, if you want... I just want there to be expeiments done before people go encouraging people to do things like "start a new thread about ways to avoid using it"

Not that I expect that anything of the sort will be done properly... I certainly won't waste my time on it. It seems analagous to a huge clinical trial to prove why pint jars are better than 1/2 pints when I am perfectly happy with the results of 1/2 pints. Yet I don't find defending poor vermiculite from the propaganda machine to be a waste of time. I will always enjoy the fight against the propaganda machine..

ThE JafF

[This message has been edited by ThE JafF (edited February 15, 2000).]



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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92488 - 02/15/00 07:54 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

You know, information is pretty worthless without an interpretation that applies it to something. What you get out of your information depends entirely on your interpretation.
Ripper, when you stated, "When working in a laboratory style environment it just doesn't make sense to use something that can harbor so much!", do you mean as opposed to things that harbour absolutlely nothing such as Rye? Or maybe it is agar that is completely safe from contamination or extraneous material? Perhaps you were referring to straw which contains just about anything in trace amounts that can be found in soil. My point is all these things are common in mycological labratories world-wide. They all harbor contams and hidden ingredients/chemicals. Yet they are prepared and used in ways to effectivly negate this.
Also, "Now that we've determined that vermiculite is a bad idea". Who the hell determined that? Did I miss something? Another case of interpretation. I assume you were referring to the posts concerning trace elements found in vermiculite. I read the posts, but got something entirely different out of them. What they said to me is "yup, there are trace elements present that varry from source to source, but don't seem to be much to worry about". Do you think that the lime you used was 100% pure? How about the peat, was it free of all chemicals and forign material? Very little that is available to the average consumer is going to be absolutly pure, and if it was it would be far too expensive for the home mycologist.
And the part about people badmouthing peat. Again, did I miss something? I didn't see any badmouthing of anything except vermiculite. I do know that peat is more prone to green mold than verm. That is a fact due to the small pieces of wood present in peat. Sure it doesn't happen everytime. Sure it can be controlled. I was just pointing out that I don't think that peat and verm favoring different contams makes one better than the other.
Again, I hate to be a buzzkill, but I'm with JafF on this one. You don't do research to prove a point. You do research to gather information. The information may or may not support what you would like, but as a scientist you shouldn't care. I think this is going in a possibly good direction, but taking all the wrong roads to get there. Now let's not get upset and take anything here personally as has happened before at the shroomery. I think this topic has some merit, but it should be looked at from a more objective point of view.
All for now.

------------------
-From a registered Mad Scientist

"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obiwan Kenobi (also a Mad Scientist tm)



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Anonymous

Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92489 - 02/15/00 11:48 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Ripper: Seeing what mycofile wrote, reminded me that you probably don't know my personality all that well. I'm sure a few people around here know me well enought to know that I do not throw ego into what I do.. I will defend and idea almost violently, throwing everything I have at it, but in another thread I might be bowing to you, saying how unworthy I am to be in your presence.. Please take nothing of what I say personally, as I put none of ME personally into what I say.. I just wanted to let you know since I may come off a bit gruff if you don't understand.. Ok... good... back to the war...

ThE JafF



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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #92490 - 02/19/00 07:59 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, I forgot to add this. I intended to open the other post with it, but was not thinking.

Glad to see your still around, Ripper. I read your goodbye post and it saddened me. I didn't keep up with the problems you cited for leaving, but gathered that it was some personal problems with people at the shroomery. It sucks to loose intelligent people that have much to offer just because some have to be assholes.

Now that you're back, lets do what we're here to do: learn, teach, debate and improve the world of closet mycology. For it is in the closet that the most innovative ideas in mycology originate.
peaces

------------------
-From a registered Mad Scientist

"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obiwan Kenobi (also a Mad Scientist tm)



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineJsyd4
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Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Ripper]
    #789225 - 07/31/02 08:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. i don't think anybody mentioned that some vermiculite has been found to have asbestos in it. That can't be good. Just a thought, a cereal like cheerios that would allow for aeration, multigrain probably would that work? Maybe that's stupid....


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substra [Re: Jsyd4]
    #789589 - 08/01/02 02:25 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quite a while ago there was a post by somebody about a cake they had made that contained a large amount of sugar (i think, the details on this matter are very sketchy in my memory). The person said that after the cake had colonised (which had taken a long long time) the fruits were very noticably sweet. Unfortunately I cannot be sure on much about this post because for all I know it could have been a joke. More than likely the post was made atleast 1 year ago so I doubt searching will yield any results. I think this idea of verm being sucked up is strange and I add my voice in saying that I have never seen verm anywhere but at the base of a fruit.

Personally I found wild ones to be worse tasting than grown (on vermiculite) and that any exposure to the horrible taste of the average fruit makes my body consider heaving anyway, gelcaps all the way. In terms of cost peat is a lot cheaper than vermiculite though.

I have had a fair bit of trouble with ye olde cobweb on straight vermiculite and straight peat seemed pretty good.


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Offlineaural
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Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: Jsyd4]
    #789729 - 08/01/02 05:49 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The vermiculite/asbestos thing comes around every so often.IIRC,it was mainly from a certain source.If you are concerned about inhaling asbestos,then DONT.Wear a dust mask.It says to do that right on the bag anyway.


Edited by aural (08/01/02 05:52 AM)


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Offlinedanelectro
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Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substra [Re: aural]
    #791108 - 08/01/02 06:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well I'd like to volunteer my taste buds for testing, I know it's a tough job, but I'll gladly do it. Actually that's a good idea, but as for the whole worrying about verm... everything now gives you cancer, milk, sunlight, I sometimes think that thinking gives you cancer (and therefore I'm going to get a brain tumor soon) I agree it should be tested, but only after long scientific test should any results or actions be taken.


--------------------
We should really love each other, in peace and harmony. Instead we're fussing and fighting, like we ain't supposed to be.-Bob Marley
The people, the still sleeping mass which it was necessary to mobilize and its vanguard, the guerrillas.
-Che


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates [Re: aural]
    #792074 - 08/02/02 08:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Actually asbestos is becoming more of a problem with vermiculite. That's why it's getting harder to find. Walmart, Lowes, and several other places around here stopped selling it. I spoke to managers, and they said that it was an asbestos problem. I told them that I though it was just verm from a certain mine that had it. 2 of them said that no, they were detecting asbestos in verm that wasn't supposed to be from those mines. The others had no idea about anything and just sent me to a nursery (which didn't have any). Whether the asbestos is a problem or not remains to be shown.

What is obvious is that verm is prone to cobweb. Peat is prone to green molds due to all the woody debris in it. choose your poison I suppose.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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