A few months back a friend of myne wanted to eat a cake to get high. I told him if he really wanted to OK. Well after a couple bites he couldn't stand the taste and puked. Now he said that it tasted like the shrooms he had before and that it was just ALOT stronger. This got me thinking. Well.. The majority of shrooms that are sold, are probably grown using vermiculite in the process. Most of the time in both the substrate and the casing layer. Here is the kicker to the whole thing. Stamets, in TMC, suggests that an *OPTIONAL* 1 part vermiculate can be added to 4 parts peat, 1 part lime flour, and 1/2 part lime grit. Now, where the hell does the 50/50 make any sense there. Also, in the 50/50 standard(not plus) it doesn't suggest using a lime to balance out the soil. The Vermiculate isn't going to buffer out that peat moss any, vermiculate ranges in PH from 6-9. Meaning, yeah, its gonna get it close to 7, but not balanced properly. Now the 50/50+ does use oyster shell to balance the PH, this is good, but once again they use Vermiculite.

OK, so heres my findings that caused me to write this, I grew a batch of B+ on wheat straw that was spawned with rye. The casing was straight peat without the PH being balanced(didn't have chlorophast strips then) and I found that the mushrooms tasted like actually mushrooms you'd buy in a store, they didn't have this horrid taste! To confirm this, I had a friend try them also, he said that they tasted VERY good to him also. No nausia either.

Now sometimes when the local dealer has shrooms, they have "gold flakes" that "get you higher" HAH! It's fucking vermiculite. But the gold flakes is the reason I'm mentioning this. Psilocybe Cubensis in particular seems to draw up things out of the substrate and casing layers. So in theory, whatever you put in there to an extent, they're going to draw up. Not vermiculite stuck on them, but actually embedded in the stems. I've seen this on a few occasions.

Another interesting fact regarding vermiculite, you know how we all seem to get cobweb mold... Well call me crazy, I live in a place where molds and bacterias are extremely low, and the likelyhood of cobweb mold being present is slim to none. So it crawled in on something. And a friend of myne has tested straight verm with water added and got cobweb mold to generate. On the other hand, Stamets suggests that peat is fairly clean to begin with, yet our casings are constantly being infected with cobweb. Also, I noticed the first signs of cobweb usually show up within 24 hours of putting a casing on(very very hard to see). Now I prepared a casing last night, and let it sit in the middle of my living room, with no lid on it for 60 minutes, then covered it, and let it sit 24 hours. No signs of cobweb. Which furthers my conclusion that cobweb travels on vermiculite.

So whats the solution to this in my head, well I think that we need to look at possibly elimating vermiculite in substrates and casings layers. Eliminating it from the casing layer is simple. Just use peat moss, and balance the PH to 7 using limeflour/grit.. Use approximately 2 times as much flour as grit. A substitution for grit is oyster shell. I am also working on developing a substrate with different types of grain that provides aeration similiar to vermiculite.

I know this isn't a solution to a problem. Or maybe the problem is just in my head, But I'll tell you what. Either I'm going nutz, or vermiculite is a demon sent from hell to make my shrooms taste bad.

[This message has been edited by Ripper (edited February 11, 2000).]

Later,
tweedy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ripper:
I grew a batch of B+ on wheat straw that was spawned with rye. The casing was straight peat without the PH being balanced(didn't have chlorophast strips then) and I found that the mushrooms tasted like actually mushrooms you'd buy in a store, they didn't have this horrid taste!

---

I haven't tried B+ myself, nor do I usually case, however, I do use lime to get my cakes, which are a modified PF Tek sugstrate, as close to pH 7 as I can. My mushrooms also taste fine. Not GOOD, but not bad at all if you like culinary mushrooms to begin with. I've found that drying has a severe negative impact on the flavor.

So, thus far our results seem to agree, I just thought I had a less-nasty tasting strain

quote:

---

Now sometimes when the local dealer has shrooms, they have "gold flakes" that "get you higher" HAH! It's fucking vermiculite.

---

Hmm, I examine every one of my cake-grown mushrooms (to check for any kind of contimination), and I've never, ever found vermiculite anywhere but around the base.
Maybe its different with casing.

quote:

---

Another interesting fact regarding vermiculite, you know how we all seem to get cobweb mold... Well call me crazy, I live in a place where molds and bacterias are extremely low, and the likelyhood of cobweb mold being present is slim to none. So it crawled in on something.

---

Again, my results seem to parallel yours, the only time I ever get contaminations anymore is when I don't bake the shit out of my vermiculte before using it (pressure cooking gets rid of most of the problems, but its not unusual for something to get through). However, I have never even seen cobweb, I have problems with some kind of yellowish powdery substance that takes over the cake.

quote:

---

I am also working on developing a substrate with different types of grain that provides aeration similiar to vermiculite.

---

It grows quite well. I credit Mr. G for giving me the idea. B+ seems to love the stuff.

I'd recommend mixing up a bunch of spore solution, and innoculating substrates, one vermiculite based, and one or more an alternate. Grow them out in similar chambers and harvest. Then get a couple of friends and perform a double blind taste test and see if your fiends can tell a difference, or have a prefrence.

Another couple of sidenotes regarding it. #1 vermiculite is expensive. When compared in cost to all the other things you use, vermiculite is one of the most expensive. I used to think it was just a good idea to use, since everyone else was. When in reality it really should be removed from cultivation all together. Other species of mushrooms from what I understand do not absorb things out of the substrate and casing like cubensis do. Which leads me to #2

#2 Vermiculate is NOT consumable. It's not good for you to eat. And when people use 100% vermiculate casing and a 75% vermiculite in their substrates. It would be an obvious conclusion that these people are getting vermiculite in their fruitbodies.

Just a thought =P

TryptoFarmer

but vermiculite has some big advantages as casing cause it is very airy and lets the substrate breath.

B.T.W I don`t like the classical only Ryegrian tek...

peace and stuff

I will try pure woodcompost with cocus flakes and mybe oasis (a new growth media for hemp)
with some gypsum. I will post results also..
The woodcompst provides nutritients and serves as casing isn't very likly to be contaminated ( a guy in Germany wrote a book in which he described this and B.I.O also uses it) and the cocos flakes and oasis are very airy and can also hold lots of water..

a thing which could be tested is just soakig vermiculit in water if the water changes the colour, ph, Ec? a lot it is a sign that there is aggod chance that the shrooms suck uop some stuff...

well Ripper good point, lets research the totel Vermiculite free growing....also Vermiculite is the most expensive and most difficult to get thing in my setup....
(it isn`t very common in Germany)

------------------
I am back with a
vengeance
don`t dare to
call me a junior or
I`ll kick your virtual
ass.....

People also suggest that casings need vermiculate to improve aeration, well to be honest, I know that my peat casing that I just did with no vermiculite had plenty of aeration. When peat is brought to the proper moisture content it is still fluffy, and has plenty of water.

Think about this people

peace
camel

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day!"

[This message has been edited by Condi1 (edited February 11, 2000).]

vermiculite \Ver*mic"u*lite\, n. [L. vermiculus, dim. of vermis worm.] (Min.) A group of minerals having, a micaceous structure. They are hydrous silicates, derived generally from the alteration of some kind of mica. So called because the scales, when heated, open out into wormlike forms.

OK so vermiculite is derived from mica =)

Point being, no one really ever studies nutritional values of Psilocybe Cubensis. All of the studies you see pertaining to it and other psychoactive mushrooms relate usually to potency. Most people aren't too concerned about how healthy a finished fruit body is. But I'll tell you this, if you went into a grocery store, would you even consider buying mushrooms that tasted like shit, over the ones that tasted like REALY mushrooms. I know I wouldn't. As the thread gets hotter, we'll see the results..

BTW- For those of you planning on doing a casing layer without vermiculite, heres the #1 challenge you're going to have, no other casings or vermiculite can be present in the room its prepare, incubated, or fruited in. And if vermiculite was previously in these rooms take proper sterilization procedures.

As far as the comment regarding vermiculite in pressure cooking not getting everything killed.. Well typically vermiculite sterilizes just fine. Its the problem with casing layers. You don't really need to sterilize casing layers. Or for that matter, without using vermiculite, I haven't even pastuerized my casings. Now on the other hand, had I used vermiculite in this last batch with no sterilization nor pastuerization, I would have developed cobweb within 24 hours for sure and haven't.

More replys! Keep this thread alive, you might save a fellow shroomerite from eating mushrooms that taste like ASS again!

------------------
-From a registered Mad Scientist

"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obiwan Kenobi (also a Mad Scientist tm)

Anyway.. Mycofile: Your absolutly right about vemiculite and the PF formula, but its side benefit was it allowed the use of the flour in the first place over whole grain.. It also functions to allow the mycelium to grow throughout... With just brown rice flour, you would have a solid inpenetrable brick... I doubt it has any role in the taste as well. My guess is that the one batch that tasted good was apparantly grown on straw, spawned with rye... Sounds a lot more reasonable to me that the taste would be affected by something fungus actually ingests, since vermiculite is non-nutrient... Growing on a different substrate is why you noticed a difference in taste...

The cobweb mold absence probably comes from the benificial bacteria present in peat. That is one of the main reasons for using peat in the first place. You don't get this protection in dry vemiculite.

ThE JafF

[This message has been edited by ThE JafF (edited February 12, 2000).]

As far as Vermiculite supposed "superior water retaining capabilities" you quoted. Stamets says "One half to one part coarse vermiculite can be added to improve the water retaining capacity of thse casing mixtures and can be an aid if fruiting on thinly laid substrates" also on the same page he says that Vermiculite contains 84% water at saturation, and that peat contains 79% water at saturation. This being said, YES vermiculite does hold more water, but its not that much more. He suggests that on thinly laid substrates it should be used. If it was neccesary with a properly applied casing layer then he would state that in the formula, not list it as optional.

As far as the shrooms sucking things up... Well Psilocybe Cubensis in particular has been known to draw things up out of its substrate. Remember when all the MAO inhibitor in substrate experiments were going on. Now these weren't nutrients, and if they were, it would have broke then down. It was just something that was present in the casing layer.

As far as cobweb mold goes, if you guys would read my posts they're pretty self-explanatory, Cobweb mold has spontaneously generated on vermiculite with sterile water added to it, while peat hasn't. Also, cobweb mold has yet to be seen since the elimination of vermiculite. I'm not saying set in stone, vermiculite is where everyone gets their cobweb mold. Just that I know that its not present where I live, and the likelyhood of it being spread throughout the united states so much is VERY unlikely. Its more likely that a common cause of it is its tracked in on something.

As far as your Trichoderma AKA Forest Green mold grows. If you would read TMC you would have noticed that Trichoderma prefers a PH of 4-5.5, meaning that if your casing layer's PH was properly balanced, the likely hood of it showing up is slim to none. And if it did show up its easy to control, simply pouring baking soda on it to raise the pH does the trick.

Stamets also refers to peat casings as being "fairly clean", and not requiring pastuerizations typically. Well the test in progress right now, we'll see if my bed with straight peat moss and limeflour that wasn't pastuerized contaminates.

I have to say out of the observations in this thread on the draw backs of vermiculite, the only one I can partially agree with is the greater tendency towards cobweb mold in vermiculite casings. My take on this is that cobweb mold is partly parasitic on mycelium, and partly nourished by metabolic gases given off by mycelium. Cobweb is mostly supressed in casing that has balanced bacteria populations. Vermiculite as it comes from a sealed bag can be considered nearly sterile. Cobweb seems to like vermiculite casings because of the favorable gas diffusion and lack of beneficial bacteria. A few months ago I posted on some experiments I did incubating casing material with acetone/ethanol to encourage beneficial bacteria. This prevents cobweb very well for cubensis, and fairly well for Pans.

I would note that vermiculite is totally inert and insoluble. I can't think of a plausible explanation for vermiculite being resonsible for "taste". I have seen vermiculite flakes imbedded in the base of stems, but it never extends above the base next to the casing/substrate.

Vermiculite is very useful in casing and in substrate and nothing I know of can totally replace it. I won't be rushing to eliminate it. I would caution beginners from shying away from vermiculite because of this thread. PF tek type methods are far more foolproof and certain than anything else out there. Don't shy away from vermiculite until you have some successful experience.

DD

Anyways, guess what. Even back then this is his casing mix:

2 1/2 parts peat
2 parts verm or perlite
2 parts fine sand
2 parts cruched oyster shell

Now the Magic Mushroom Growers Guide calls for this which is essentially the same.

7.5 litres peat
3.5 litres fine verm.
4 litres fine washed sand
2 litres calcium carbonate

Now this is the only mix I have ever used
and have gotten extremely high yields
and quality tasting shrooms. I also only ever use organic rye grain kernels. You eliminate a lot of the moisture (verm) problems just by using rye grain since when
you sterlize it the kernels swell with water. The only thing I have yet to use is wheat straw/manure. But if you look at any of Stamets books you'll see that the pics of cubies on these substrates are large and densely grown, yummy! So in conclusion, stick with what the experts found through more experimentation than you will ever have time to complete. Sure try playing around with the mix, but don't chop ingredients and then expect the same results. Just my opinion. ; )

I totally agree that vermiculite might have no impact other than moisture on shrooms, but the point that might be missed here is how it's processed. If most people use vermiculite for garden use, the random minerals/ chemicals that are in it from processing steps would just flush out into the ground, however the ways that it is used for mushroom cultivation keep all (if any) extra minerals/chemicals in the cakes, thus they could get "soaked up" into the mushrooms. Thus, my advice, Ripper, if you say that the water that the verm is soaked in gives off a nasty taste, try flushing the verm with some water, get all the extras that are in there out, and make sure all that's left is pure verm. If it is just the verm, and of course vermiculite is insouluble, when you put it into water, there should be nothing else in "vermiculite water" except for water.. but back to my point. Does anyone know how Vermiculite is produced. I think this is key, because who knows if it is exposed to anything other than vermiculte that would make shrooms taste bad or encourage contams. ....I've babbled long enough

-peace

Vermiculite and Health Aspects Associated with
Potential Contaminants:

Vermiculite and other ore bodies can contain a variety of
associated minerals such as mica, quartz, feldspar, etc.
The associated minerals are unique to a particular
deposit and, in some cases, may include minerals which
could pose a health risk if present in significant quantities.
In most countries, manufacturers are required to publish
and make available Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS).
These sheets will typically identify any hazards
associated with the material and also provide information
on safe handling and proper disposal.
Asbestos fibres are a potential risk to health, and in the
past there has been some vermiculites contaminated with
trace amounts of asbestiform material. Vermiculite ore
bodies currently in use by the major producers, do not
pose a health risk when used in accordance with the
manufacturer's MSDS. However, there are numerous
sources of commercial vermiculite available in the world
today and it is important for the end user to understand
test data from a particular manufacturer.
Such testing should take into account both mineralogical
and morphological differences between asbestos and
non-asbestos varieties of the same amphibole or
serpentine mineral.
Finally, it is important to note that the issue of potential for
fibrous asbestos contamination exists for a wide range of
naturally occurring materials. Included in this list are
materials such as sand, clay, and gypsum. Due to this,
and other studies referencing background levels of
asbestos in the environment, it is inappropriate to state
that any naturally occurring material is asbestos free. Any
reference to trace asbestos levels must include (as a
minimum): analysis technique, detection limit, and
definition of asbestos used in the study.

and from http://www.vermiculite.org/VINA.pdf

Vermiculite ore deposits, like most other rocks, contain an assemblage of other
minerals besides the vermiculite (Addison and Davies 1990). There may be major
components such as feldspars, pyroxenes, amphiboles, carbonates, and quartz, as
well as minor components such as phosphates, iron oxides, titanium oxides and
zircon (Atkinson et al 1982). The full assemblage at any one mine is determined by
the nature of the original rock types from which the vermiculite ores were formed. So
the vermiculites formed from ultramafic rocks such as phlogopite pyroxenites and
serpentinites may contain chrysotile, tremolite and anthophyllite in veins or as altered
relics of olivine, pyroxene and mica. Vermiculite ores formed from gneisses or
granites are more likely to contain feldspars and quartz; vermiculite formed from
carbonates may contain magnesite, calcite and other carbonates, and phlogopite.
The proportions of the different accessory minerals may vary depending upon which
part of the ore body is being worked, and the proportions in the final product may
also vary with the grade of the product.

sorry for the page clutter, but any mad scientist must document his sources...

The general use of vermiculite in gardening is not in large quantities like those used in substrates typically. Vermiculite has been found to contain all sorts of unknowns. When working in a laboratory style environment it just doesn't make sense to use something that can harbor so much!

As far as people bad mouthing peat, I've checked my casings again, its been almost one week since application, with no pastuerization, and I have got no contamination yet. I used the following formula in my casing, I know that the lime that I used is not a very great idea, but the concentration was miniscule.
10 Quarts Peat
20 Grams Chemical Lime(used for curing concrete)
1 Gallon Water
1/4 Cup Hydrogen Peroxide
I sifted the peat in a spaghetti collander first, this took out dirt and sticks, so I was left with a fluffy peat. I used one of the large bags you can get at Home Depot for like $10(Much more economical then Schultz). I mixed the water and hydrogen peroxide in a pesticide sprayer I obtained at Home Depot, it was $10. I then sprayed and turned the peat over and over again, until the gallon of water was in it, it was fluffy, but had a good amount of water in it...

As far as substrates are concerned, we should have some results using straight rye grain in 1/2 pint jars pretty soon. I'll keep you guys informed.

Now that we've determined that vermiculite is a bad idea, we need to start a new thread about ways to avoid using it. I will be compiling information regarding the pros and cons of vermiculite in substrates and casings. What I need from you people is some ideas in this thread, I'll try to post the new thread sometime this week =) Thanks for all of your support regarding this matter, its nice to see you guys thought for yourself and got the facts straight =)

Your original hypothesis being that vermiculite "CAUSES" the bad taste in mushrooms.. (first of all this is subjective and thus improvable) also that it "CARRIES" the cobweb mold... Not just that it is suceptable to it, but that it carries it...

NOPE... The problem is that the vermiculite is STERILIZED... Sterilize your peat and you will have the same problem with it.

It is just susceptible to it the way it comes from the store.. The heat treatment during its production destroys any benifial bacteria that may have been there, as well as the cobweb mold. It just doesn't come from the vermiculite.. The vermiculite is just an easy target in that it holds water and creates a good environment.. Peat would as well if it didn't have bacterias that help defend it against cobweb mold... But if you sterilize it COMPLETELY, and subject it to the same conditions, you will run into the same problem... This does in a way help your ultimate point of why you like peat better, but you are a long way from proving your hypothesis. I think you just don't realize what your "hypothesis" is.

You say :"The general use of vermiculite in gardening is not in large quantities like those used in substrates typically. "

What the hell are you talking about? Bags and bags of vermiculite are used in gardening. YES, SOMETIMES ONLY VERMICULITE!

What am I saying? I am saying your whole Shabang here is ridiculous.. I am not saying it is unworthy of investigation. I am saying you are jumping to conclusions stating things as fact with nothing but speculation to back it up... You seem poised to launch this "Just say no to vermiculite" campain (and it seems to have a lot in common with other just say no campains). Take it easy and try this "thinking" you mention. Prove it with side by side comparisons prepared at the same time, innoculated with the same innoculant, grown in the same terrarium, etc... Then report what you find. Not this Antivermiculite propaganda. I personally don't care one way or the other why you have this intense hated of the demon vermiculite, but I just can't stand propaganda with a spoonful of "think for yourself"

ThE JafF

Not that I expect that anything of the sort will be done properly... I certainly won't waste my time on it. It seems analagous to a huge clinical trial to prove why pint jars are better than 1/2 pints when I am perfectly happy with the results of 1/2 pints. Yet I don't find defending poor vermiculite from the propaganda machine to be a waste of time. I will always enjoy the fight against the propaganda machine..

ThE JafF

[This message has been edited by ThE JafF (edited February 15, 2000).]

------------------
-From a registered Mad Scientist

"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obiwan Kenobi (also a Mad Scientist tm)

ThE JafF

Glad to see your still around, Ripper. I read your goodbye post and it saddened me. I didn't keep up with the problems you cited for leaving, but gathered that it was some personal problems with people at the shroomery. It sucks to loose intelligent people that have much to offer just because some have to be assholes.

Now that you're back, lets do what we're here to do: learn, teach, debate and improve the world of closet mycology. For it is in the closet that the most innovative ideas in mycology originate.
peaces

------------------
-From a registered Mad Scientist

"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obiwan Kenobi (also a Mad Scientist tm)