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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8017445 -

That is a valid and important criteria, for sure. I wouldn't condone it on spec, I would have to be quite sure he knew something. But, this goes to my entire point. It is foolish to take a useful tool away just because it may be misused. Keep it in the closet and only bring it out under certain circumstances but do not remove it entirely from consideration when it's utility is obvious. So, the discussion should not be that it is morally reprehensible in all circumstances. The discussion becomes what circumstances is it morally reprehensible NOT to use it.

Whores or wives? You decide. Or, if you prefer, gigolos or sugar daddies.


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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8018433 -

zappaisgod said:
That is a valid and important criteria, for sure. I wouldn't condone it on spec, I would have to be quite sure he knew something. But, this goes to my entire point. It is foolish to take a useful tool away just because it may be misused. Keep it in the closet and only bring it out under certain circumstances but do not remove it entirely from consideration when it's utility is obvious. So, the discussion should not be that it is morally reprehensible in all circumstances. The discussion becomes what circumstances is it morally reprehensible NOT to use it.

Whores or wives? You decide. Or, if you prefer, gigolos or sugar daddies.


yeah, this is pretty reasonable, of course the problem is defining when it is percisely allowable, and in this case I think their should be similar evidence that would allow an officer to search a house without a warrant in this country

But since the CIA doesn't seem to be great record keepers, and the administration doesn't seem to keen on independant review of their practices, is it even meaningful to place restrictions on these technique's use?

For me, I think its generally morally repugnant, but I think in some cases their is a need for torture (as a matter of morals, not of policy). If I was a guard, and I had a good information that an individual was harboring information that would save people from death, I'd certainly feel justified in using otherwise-inhumane methods.

But since these instances are rare, and they'd likely never come to light anyways (unless the procedure is abused and every joe shmo is subjected to it... kinda like how it seems like there wasn't very good evidence against alot of the guantanamo detainees).

edit: kinda trailed off there.

My last point was is it even necessary for their to be explicit legal exceptions? The president generally has the authority to enforce our treaties how he sees fit (correct me if I'm wrong) so even if this was outlawed, couldn't the President authorize it anyways in extreme circumstances (which I would hope they would anyways)? And even if this occured in america, it is the President's perogative whom to prosecute or whom to pardon anyways....

Just saying a ban would likely not be enforced in absolution anyways... But it'd be shitty to start down that road, and then have people following orders get hung out to dry if the president doens't wanna take the backlash

Edited by johnm214 (02/13/08 05:06 PM)

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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: johnm214]
    #8018456 -

As far as anyone knows there have been exactly 3 people waterboarded in earnest. They became quite helpful.


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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8020267 -

Quote:
But since these instances are rare, and they'd likely never come to light anyways (unless the procedure is abused and every joe shmo is subjected to it... kinda like how it seems like there wasn't very good evidence against alot of the guantanamo detainees)


exactly.

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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
    #8021013 -

> I have no idea how you got anarchy from my comment.

You said, without context, "Trouble with drawing lines is that someone has to honor them."

The problem is that every rule we live by is "a line" somewhere. Do I speed or not? Do I murder or not? Do I jaywalk or not? Do I torture people or not? With this in mind, everybody is expected to honor these rules, and when they don't the police come along to enforce the rules. If there are no lines to cross, there are no rules to violate, thus anarchy is all that is left. That is how I got from your comment to anarchy. *shrug*


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
    #8021789 -

It  would be quite helpful if you learned how to reply to the correct person.:tongue:

The context was in all of my posts if you read them. My point was that the lines get crossed and nobody is there to enforce that correction. There was some interesting photos of some soldiers crossing the line with prisoners in Iraq. Now I think it's most likely true that the commanders were behind it and most likely scapegoated these soldiers so they would have to pay the penalty for condoning torture. I think it's more than likely that lots of torture goes on that will never be reported to the American public. I frankly do have any faith in the word of these people and they are supposed to police themselves?

As I said I would condone torture in some very few select instances but frankly I think our military goes way beyond that.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8022921 -

Justice Dept.: Waterboarding no longer legal

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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8023837 -

Too bad.


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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8023907 -

Waterboarding is clearly torture - You think you are going to die and will do anything to stop it. As soon as you wake up, they do it again and again.

Information gained through torture usually complete bullshit - They say some random crap to make it stop.

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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8023994 -

Try reading the thread.


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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8028331 -

Alan Rockefeller said:
Information gained through torture usually complete bullshit - They say some random crap to make it stop.



normally after the info is spilled it continues until it's verified or new information is given


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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