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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times
    #10200684 - 04/20/09 10:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Several things strike me about this.

1) I seem to remember being told by the Bush Administration that these methods were almost invariably effective and that they were only used a few times, and led to almost immediate confessions.  Why, then, would we need to return to the same person *over a hundred* times?  Do you really expect us to believe this was for new information each time?

2) The people, such as the former CIA director, that are angry this information is coming out are idiots.  They should have known as soon as they decided to do this that it would come out eventually, this being a <gasp> liberal democracy, and that the information would be damaging.  If they aren't comfortable with everyone knowing they did it, they shouldn't fucking do it.  I'm not sure if they are willfully withholding information in an attempt to soften the blows, but they are only making it worse.  It's bad enough to hear that people are tortured, but to hear that it is done hundreds of times to the same individual is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Everyone here should know, because I've said it a bajillion times that I love America and think it's the greatest fucking country on the planet.  Shit like this just pisses me off.  We are so much better than this.  Yes, KSM is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.  Yes, he's a terrorist scum-bag.  No, I don't want to be on the same level he is, although the CIA seems to be heading that way.

What a crock.

Quote:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/20/cia.waterboarding/

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- CIA interrogators used waterboarding at least 266 times on two top al Qaeda suspects, according to a Bush-era Justice Department memo released by the Obama administration.

The controversial technique that simulates drowning -- and which President Obama calls torture -- was used at least 83 times in August 2002 on suspected al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah, according to the memo.

Interrogators also waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times in March 2003. Mohammed is believed to be the mastermind behind the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States.

Obama released the memo Thursday, saying that "exceptional circumstances surround these memos and require their release." Video Watch other tactics outlined in memos »

The memo, dated May 30, 2005, was from then-Deputy Assistant Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John Rizzo, who was acting general counsel for the CIA.

It paints a different picture from the one described by former CIA officer John Kiriakou. In a December 2007 interview with CNN, Kiriakou said Zubaydah had been waterboarded for "about 30 seconds, 35 seconds" and agreed to cooperate with interrogators the following day.

In an interview on "Fox News Sunday," Michael Hayden, who directed the CIA from 2006 to 2009, was asked about the number of times Mohammed was waterboarded.

Hayden denounced the release of the memos and did not comment on the number, saying it was his understanding that the frequency of waterboarding was among the operational details that had not been declassified. Video Watch one expert say tactics 'worse than Abu Ghraib' »

The 2005 memo refers to a letter that had contained the numbers as well. Part of the reference to the letter was redacted in the released memo.

Waterboarding is among the interrogation tactics that Obama has prohibited through an executive order.

The CIA also has admitted waterboarding Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the first person charged in the United States for the 2000 attack on the USS Cole in Yemen that killed 17 U.S. sailors.

Obama said last week he felt comfortable releasing the classified memos because the Bush administration acknowledged using some of the practices associated with the memos, and the interrogation techniques were widely reported and have since been banned.
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"Withholding these memos would only serve to deny facts that have been in the public domain for some time," Obama said in a statement. "This could contribute to an inaccurate accounting of the past, and fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions taken by the United States."

The president applauded the work of the U.S. intelligence community and said no one who "carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice" would be prosecuted.




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10201150 - 04/20/09 11:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I posted this in another thread but it belongs here as well
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=324863168180705
Quote:

We are told by President Obama's senior adviser David Axelrod that the president agonized for four weeks over the "weighty decision" to make public memoranda detailing the specifics of the CIA's tough interrogation of high-value terrorist detainees such as 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammad.

For most other presidents, it would have taken maybe four minutes, required little soul-searching and resulted in the opposite choice.

What on earth could the president have been thinking in revealing the nuts and bolts of how we extract information from al-Qaida operatives to prevent the success of their terrorist operations?

What could have possessed him to make public the steps our interrogators go through, the limits of pain and discomfort they (but not the prisoners) know they will not exceed, and the analytical classification and specific purpose of each of the various techniques?

These top secrets will arm Islamist jihadists with knowledge that will be invaluable to them. Future terrorist detainees will now know, for instance, that their interrogations are under continual video surveillance to make sure no lasting medical or psychological consequences result from the techniques used. Will they now teach themselves to fake such ill effects?

Terrorists will know that when they are placed in a tiny container in "cramped confinement" it will last only "up to two hours," as a declassified memo from the Justice Department to the CIA noted. They will know that "stress positions" are used "only to induce temporary muscle fatigue" not "severe physical pain."

They will now know that when subjected to "water dousing" they need not have the slightest fear of hypothermia, because every precaution is taken to keep the temperature of both the room and the water itself far above freezing.

They will know sleep deprivation inflicted by the interrogators seldom exceeds 96 hours, and they'll know the specifics and purposes behind the relatively mild technique of "dietary manipulation."

What the president has given to our enemies is a treasure chest of defensive weapons. Within the caves of the mountainous Pakistan/Afghanistan border, Islamofascist plotters must wonder how self-destructively corrupt their American adversaries have to be to allow such materials to land in their hands.

The piece of information that may be of most value to terrorists is the government's assessment that waterboarding was "the most traumatic of the enhanced interrogation techniques" and implicitly the most effective.

Terrorist groups around the world will now know that waterboarding was "authorized for, at most, one 30-day period, during which the technique can actually be applied on no more than five days" with "no more than two sessions in any 24-hour period."

Each session lasted no more than two hours, consisting of, at most, six applications of water for 10 seconds each time, for a total of no longer than 12 minutes per each 24-hour period. Presumably the issue is academic since the Obama administration has officially prohibited waterboarding.

There is no more valuable tool for subjects of interrogation than to know what they will be subjected to. How in good conscience could our president have given this gift to those trying to destroy us?




Thanks a lot President Idiot.


--------------------

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10202149 - 04/20/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Those poor high level terrorists.:bitch:


I use to roll my eyes when conservatives said liberalism is a mental disease but im beginning to think otherwise.

Sorry i know this post is constructive but it's just mind boggling.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: buckwheat]
    #10202373 - 04/20/09 03:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

On the same level as the mental deficiency characterized by those who believe that that revenge = justice?

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: buckwheat]
    #10202509 - 04/20/09 04:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

buckwheat said:
Those poor high level terrorists.:bitch:


I use to roll my eyes when conservatives said liberalism is a mental disease but im beginning to think otherwise.

Sorry i know this post is constructive but it's just mind boggling.







I'm not a retard, thanks.

What the fuck is the point of this torture, to you, the enlightened Conservative? :puke:

And zappa, if this is such a terribly effective method of torture, should it really matter to the terrorists if they know it's coming?  Anyone who's gone through any kind of interrogation training will tell you that torture is guaranteed to work no matter how prepared you are for it.

Do you honestly believe that knowing how you'll be tortured will prevent you from spilling the beans?

This is likely one of the silliest things I've heard you say, and I've been talking to you for fucking years.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Redstorm]
    #10203416 - 04/20/09 07:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
On the same level as the mental deficiency characterized by those who believe that that revenge = justice?





QFT

I think we should just mainline them some MDMA, they'll cozy right up and tell us everything we want to know. :awesome:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: dill705]
    #10204079 - 04/20/09 09:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
On the same level as the mental deficiency characterized by those who believe that that revenge = justice?




I know what you are talking about.and i agree for the most part.That is not me.For me it makes sense for  extracting valuable information from these people.

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10204133 - 04/20/09 09:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

buckwheat said:
Those poor high level terrorists.:bitch:


I use to roll my eyes when conservatives said liberalism is a mental disease but im beginning to think otherwise.

Sorry i know this post is constructive but it's just mind boggling.







I'm not a retard, thanks.

What the fuck is the point of this torture, to you, the enlightened Conservative? :puke:







Mental disease doesn't mean retarded. I wrongly assumed you would be familiar with the premise thats saying is based on,

And i am not a conservative i am very much a social liberal. Im still undecided on our Foreign Policy so i guess i really don't even have a real Political group. I guess i  am a small L libertarian.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10206567 - 04/21/09 11:26 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:

And zappa, if this is such a terribly effective method of torture, should it really matter to the terrorists if they know it's coming?  Anyone who's gone through any kind of interrogation training will tell you that torture is guaranteed to work no matter how prepared you are for it.

Do you honestly believe that knowing how you'll be tortured will prevent you from spilling the beans?

This is likely one of the silliest things I've heard you say, and I've been talking to you for fucking years.




They can prepare for it and they will know the limits it will take, thus any fear of worse is removed.  Dumb dumb dumb.  This was another campaign ad at the expense of security.  The President is a stupid affirmative action twat who thinks he is still polishing a resume instead of doing a job.


--------------------

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10206783 - 04/21/09 12:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

They can prepare for it and they will know the limits it will take, thus any fear of worse is removed.  Dumb dumb dumb.




Obama said we will not torture, so what are they going to prepare for?  These memos are history - relics from a truly fucked up time in our countries history - and not to be repeated again.  If we do torture again in the future, it would be based on new memos and techniques.  And that qoute you posted above is some journalists opinion, which means very little.  Rush Limbaugh has opinions, too, but it certainly doesn't make him right.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10206959 - 04/21/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Those weren't torture.  Obama is a big mouth moron who doesn't know when to shut the fuck up.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10207827 - 04/21/09 03:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)



Tell em Zap.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Icelander]
    #10208145 - 04/21/09 03:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm with Jon Stewart:

"You'd think that after 90 times he'd know he wasn't going to be drowned."


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: dill705]
    #10208503 - 04/21/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Its getting pretty tiring hearing about the straw man "dangerous terorrist" being waterboarded by the appologists.  If people are asserting that that is the entirety of hte procedure's application then they should demonstrate that is such.


Untill they do it is nothing but an appeal to emotion that is irrelevant.


The debate is not over whether to do this procedure on "high level terrorists" so its tiring to hear people constantly defend the practice.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10208550 - 04/21/09 05:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They can prepare for it and they will know the limits it will take, thus any fear of worse is removed.  Dumb dumb dumb.  This was another campaign ad at the expense of security.  The President is a stupid affirmative action twat who thinks he is still polishing a resume instead of doing a job.




What fucking nonsense.

If a little bit of mental preparation is all that it takes to defeat this torture tactic, it's fucking worthless anyway.

The fact we were doing this to people have been common fucking knowledge for fucking years.

What the fuck is the big secret?  Get the fuck out of town.

Your outrage at my security is laughable.  Torturing the fuck out of people, no matter how heinous they are, is infinitely more damaging to my security than anything Obama has done so far.  If you don't think that the resentment garnered by our gloating embrace of torture has led to more people taking up arms against our country, you're off your fucking rocker.

I know you don't care, because you have the whole "Bring 'em On!" mentality raised to prominence by your moronic former leader, but as another mentally challenged pseudo-intellectual is so fond of saying, Ideas Have Consequences.

It was the idea of your party to endlessly torture people to no apparent purpose, but you don't care to see or deal with the consequences of such actions.

You can't have it both ways, and your constant crowing for it to be so is fucking retarded and angers me to no end.

Again, torturing people makes the country less safe, not more so.  Stop fucking killing and torturing people and telling me you're doing it to make me safer.  That is bullshit.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10208826 - 04/21/09 05:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It appeared to be the idea of more than just his party judging from who was informed and went along with it.




Either way, I don't understand the big security problem anyways.  Ok, they allready know we waterboard so its... the number of times we will use a procedure for no fucking reason?



What was 100's in the manual or something?


Cuz I remembered that, no, it wasn't and thus this doesn't tell them jack shit because we were just waterboarding for pretty much no reason.  So this doesn't show "the ends we will go to"\


This is a democratic country and we should have access to information like this- especially when it is relevant to current public debates.



I fail to see how this information does anything accept make us look completely irrational- far from the "OMG they know 119 is the secret number of tries" some have  made it out to be

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10209209 - 04/21/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Aw, the CIA acted like Nazis, and Obama told on them.

Bad President, no blowjob.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10209278 - 04/21/09 06:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Your outrage at my security is laughable.  Torturing the fuck out of people, no matter how heinous they are, is infinitely more damaging to my security than anything Obama has done so far.  If you don't think that the resentment garnered by our gloating embrace of torture has led to more people taking up arms against our country, you're off your fucking rocker.

I know you don't care, because you have the whole "Bring 'em On!" mentality raised to prominence by your moronic former leader, but as another mentally challenged pseudo-intellectual is so fond of saying, Ideas Have Consequences.



:werd:  I couldn't agree more.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10209424 - 04/21/09 07:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Aw, the CIA acted like Nazis, and Obama told on them.

Bad President, no blowjob.



Obama sure got one hell of a welcome from the CIA:  Pres. Obama Remarks to CIA Employees (see the first minute)

Were they clapping for the new president at Langley because he won't punish them, or because they don't have to torture anyone anymore?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10209436 - 04/21/09 07:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If they didn't clap they were used for waterboarding practice.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10212645 - 04/22/09 09:16 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Waterboarding has been practiced on American soldiers and I think CIA for some time.

It is disheartening to read that you fail to understand that this intelligence is useful.  It is really quite clearly useful for them to know the precise limits to which we will go.  Was 90 enough?  Jon Stewart doesn't know.  Jon Stewart is a comedian.  Also an asshole but that is irrelevant.  Waterboarding is unpleasant.  If he knows we will do it over and over again until he coughs up the info then he will cough up the info.  From the mouth of Zubaydah himself:
Quote:


Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, "as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, 'brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship." In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that "Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable." The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.




Not just permitted but necessary.  Why do you suck terrorist choad?


--------------------

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Invisiblebiggyfred
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10212683 - 04/22/09 09:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Waterboarding has been practiced on American soldiers and I think CIA for some time.



Practiced on American soldiers? Could you source that? While stationed at Ft. Bragg, I was twice involved with the SERE program for special forces soldiers. Many (surprisingly benign) tactics were used to "break" SF soldiers, but never once was water boarding used.

Quote:

It is disheartening to read that you fail to understand that this intelligence is useful.  It is really quite clearly useful for them to know the precise limits to which we will go.  Was 90 enough?



What do you think the limit should be? Where do you draw the line? And what experience do you have that qualifies you above the lay opinion?

Quote:

Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, "as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, 'brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship." In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that "Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable." The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.



There are many ways to break people that don't involve even touching them. Why do you assume that all effective techniques require physical violence?

Quote:

Not just permitted but necessary.  Why do you suck terrorist choad?



Is that necessary?

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: biggyfred]
    #10212719 - 04/22/09 09:35 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> Practiced on American soldiers? Could you source that?

I know from first hand experience that it is part of your training, or at least it was back in the early 90's, for people that work in certain fields and have a high likelihood of being captured and tortured by an enemy.  In the military, it is known as SERE training.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10212820 - 04/22/09 10:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not just permitted but necessary.  Why do you suck terrorist choad?




Again, if the technique is so terribly effective why is it necessary to practice it on the same person hundreds of times in a single month?  Can you fathom what the 183rd torture session would have brought to light that the first 182 torture sessions didn't?

From what I read yesterday, the total yield of hundreds of torture sessions was a greater understanding of the structure of Al-Qaeda.

Really?  For that you sacrifice the entire moral authority of the country and plunge those of who actually give a shit into a moral quandary?  We know you don't give a fuck, so you don't have to reiterate that point.

Your point that this is practiced on US personnel is ridiculously irrelevant.  Every single soldier in the United States military is put in an enclosed room with tear gas as well.  So is that not torture either?  What the fuck is your point?

So, way to go Bushites!  You've succeeded in torturing the fuck out of numerous people for the vast gold mine of data that you likely could have gained in a million other ways.

And your inference that I'm sympathetic to terrorists is just fucking stupid, and you know it.  I'm concerned about the country, something you seem to be pitifully unaware of.

I'm going back to work now.


--------------------
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10212987 - 04/22/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What is this mystical moral authority you cite?  How about the moral obligation to prevent murdering assholes from killing our citizens, which took place on a wholesale scale at a place I know you just visited.  What specifically was garnered in the 183rd interrogation?  I don't know.  Those are in secret memos that the feckless twat we call President won't release.

I provided information that said there was specific intel which helped prevent an attack on the Library building in LA.  If one hang nail was prevented by pulling the thumbnails out of these scum it would be enough for me.  But that isn't what happened.  Lives were saved.  Why won't the cunt President release those docs?  Because he is a political fuckhole who gives not two shits about doing his job and is far more concerned with his image than the American people.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
    #10213057 - 04/22/09 10:57 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Practiced on American soldiers? Could you source that?

I know from first hand experience that it is part of your training, or at least it was back in the early 90's, for people that work in certain fields and have a high likelihood of being captured and tortured by an enemy.  In the military, it is known as SERE training.



Like I said in my post, I was involved in 3rd level SERE training in 1998 and 1999 at Ft. Bragg, NC. There was no waterboarding or anything that could be considered "enhanced" interrogation. We talked about why harsher methods weren't used and it was because they weren't necessary.

Zappa, I'm curious if you would support torturing incarcerated Americans if they were deemed to have important information. Just curious.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: biggyfred]
    #10213109 - 04/22/09 11:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

biggyfred said:


Quote:

Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, "as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, 'brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship." In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that "Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable." The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.



There are many ways to break people that don't involve even touching them. Why do you assume that all effective techniques require physical violence?


  Did you even read what Zubaydah said?  He said that it is permissable under allah to cave in when they have reached their limits under physical and psychological hardship.  It is NOT permissable otherwise.  The religious lunatic has made a complete and compelling argument that physical and psychological hardship is necessary to extract information from these turds.
Quote:



Quote:

Not just permitted but necessary.  Why do you suck terrorist choad?



Is that necessary?



Yes.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: biggyfred]
    #10213137 - 04/22/09 11:30 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

biggyfred said:

Zappa, I'm curious if you would support torturing incarcerated Americans if they were deemed to have important information. Just curious.



Important to save lives?  Absolutely.  I would go much further than these techniques, which are not torture.  I do not consider, by the way, protecting people from destroying themselves to be saving their lives.  You know the usual argument.  A hostage is buried without food or water and will die if not found soon.  The perp knows where.  Yep, he's getting it full bore.  No quarter.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10213839 - 04/22/09 02:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Did you even read what Zubaydah said?  He said that it is permissable under allah to cave in when they have reached their limits under physical and psychological hardship.  It is NOT permissable otherwise.  The religious lunatic has made a complete and compelling argument that physical and psychological hardship is necessary to extract information from these turds.



I don't base my value decisions on the decisions of others. Certainly nothing an avowed terrorist says impacts any decision I make. I'm not quite sure why you'd do so. In addition, it seems clear to me that the terrorists are strongly focusing on ways to elicit responses from America that they can use to triangulate world opinion against us with. Given those, I can't understand how the correct response would be to, essentially, give them what they want.
Quote:

zappaisgod said:Important to save lives?  Absolutely.  I would go much further than these techniques, which are not torture.  I do not consider, by the way, protecting people from destroying themselves to be saving their lives.  You know the usual argument.  A hostage is buried without food or water and will die if not found soon.  The perp knows where.  Yep, he's getting it full bore.  No quarter.



How do you reconcile that willingness to institutionalize torture with the Constitutional protections afforded American citizens?

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: biggyfred]
    #10213990 - 04/22/09 02:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

biggyfred said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:Did you even read what Zubaydah said?  He said that it is permissable under allah to cave in when they have reached their limits under physical and psychological hardship.  It is NOT permissable otherwise.  The religious lunatic has made a complete and compelling argument that physical and psychological hardship is necessary to extract information from these turds.



I don't base my value decisions on the decisions of others. Certainly nothing an avowed terrorist says impacts any decision I make. I'm not quite sure why you'd do so. In addition, it seems clear to me that the terrorists are strongly focusing on ways to elicit responses from America that they can use to triangulate world opinion against us with. Given those, I can't understand how the correct response would be to, essentially, give them what they want.


  Value decisions?  They want to be defeated?  World opinion?  That gang of whores?  You live in a dream world wherein you think we can be successful and well liked whereas every single shred of evidence points otherwise.  Nobody loves a winner, no matter what.
Quote:


Quote:

zappaisgod said:Important to save lives?  Absolutely.  I would go much further than these techniques, which are not torture.  I do not consider, by the way, protecting people from destroying themselves to be saving their lives.  You know the usual argument.  A hostage is buried without food or water and will die if not found soon.  The perp knows where.  Yep, he's getting it full bore.  No quarter.



How do you reconcile that willingness to institutionalize torture with the Constitutional protections afforded American citizens?



I do believe that the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Further, none of the things detailed are torture.  You can keep saying it and I will keep telling you that it is bullshit.  Why do you feel that human life is sacrificial to some nebulous and dubious legal distinction?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214083 - 04/22/09 02:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Did you even read what Zubaydah said?  He said that it is permissable under allah to cave in when they have reached their limits under physical and psychological hardship.  It is NOT permissable otherwise.  The religious lunatic has made a complete and compelling argument that physical and psychological hardship is necessary to extract information from these turds.



So you're saying that torture is justified.  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10214092 - 04/22/09 02:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

There are occasions where it would be justified and this occasion was not one where it was used.  Have you stopped beating your wife yet?  Not all physical and psychological hardship is torture.  Sorry if that doesn't suit your suicidal tendencies.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214280 - 04/22/09 03:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

That not a suicide pact crap is bullshit.  The constitution is what it says.



You don't get to ignore it just cuz you find a catchy theme.

And are you justifying the bush program or soem alternate program, because i have no idea if its the former why you are making all these wild claims that we will be harmed if they can't do the disputed techniques.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
    #10214420 - 04/22/09 04:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

.

Edited by johnm214 (04/23/09 12:28 AM)

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10214454 - 04/22/09 04:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
That not a suicide pact crap is bullshit.  The constitution is what it says.



You don't get to ignore it just cuz you find a catchy theme.

And are you justifying the bush program or soem alternate program, because i have no idea if its the former why you are making all these wild claims that we will be harmed if they can't do the disputed techniques.



That "catchy theme" is from a Supreme Court justice.  And what makes the techniques disputed is only that there are stupid faggots who think they are too mean.  Boo fucking hoo.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214564 - 04/22/09 04:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Personally I'm willing to let the country crumble around us before going against the constitution :shrug:

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Chespirito]
    #10214625 - 04/22/09 04:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

That's pretty fucking stupid.  Lincoln suspended it when necessary and it has been perverted for decades.  People dieing for some dubious legality?  You need to get your hands out of your pants on a more regular basis.

By the way, there is no Constitutionality issue in the current discussion.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Chespirito]
    #10214642 - 04/22/09 04:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Rawr! Terrorists isn't peoples! Waterboarding is fun! :crankey:

Seriously Zappa, you have no idea what you're talking about. You live in a fictional world where the US is the only bastion of hope in a dark and evil world. And if we have to violate the Constitution and the Geneva convention to save our glorious nation from the evil brown people then so be it. You're a fucking nazi and you don't even realize it


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10214680 - 04/22/09 04:47 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Wherein is this a Constitutional issue and wherein are non-uniform murders covered by the Geneva Convention?  Nowhere.  Keep making shit up.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10214704 - 04/22/09 04:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Rawr! Terrorists isn't peoples! Waterboarding is fun! :crankey:

Seriously Zappa, you have no idea what you're talking about. You live in a fictional world where the US is the only bastion of hope in a dark and evil world. And if we have to violate the Constitution and the Geneva convention to save our glorious nation from the evil brown people then so be it. You're a fucking nazi and you don't even realize it



:congrats:


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214719 - 04/22/09 04:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Eighth Amendment, Cruel and Unusual punishment shall not be administered.

Geneva Convention, cannot torture prisoners of war (fuck off with that enemy combatant bullshit, they are POW's)

UN convention against torture.

All of these are violated via the excessive torture of prisoners.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214747 - 04/22/09 05:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's pretty fucking stupid.  Lincoln suspended it when necessary and it has been perverted for decades.  People dieing for some dubious legality?  You need to get your hands out of your pants on a more regular basis.

By the way, there is no Constitutionality issue in the current discussion.






No he didn't.  He suspended habeas corpus, not the constitution.  The constitution allows habeas corpus to be suspended in times of inserection and rebellion.  Whatever the merits of lincoln's actions it was not illegal.



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
That not a suicide pact crap is bullshit.  The constitution is what it says.



You don't get to ignore it just cuz you find a catchy theme.

And are you justifying the bush program or soem alternate program, because i have no idea if its the former why you are making all these wild claims that we will be harmed if they can't do the disputed techniques.



That "catchy theme" is from a Supreme Court justice.  And what makes the techniques disputed is only that there are stupid faggots who think they are too mean.  Boo fucking hoo.





Yeah, from a supreme court justice who was writing a disenting opinion, i.e. not the supreme court.


The only time that phrase has been used, it is entirelly legaly meaningless, in an opinion of the court was to afirm that the constition wasn't being violated.


i.e. the constitution isn't a suicide pact not because we get to ignore it when people find it inconveiniant., no, it is not a suicide pact because the elastic clause provides sufficient breadth of scope for congress to reasonably carry out its duties without endangering the country.

Quote:

Citizenship is a most precious right. It is expressly guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which speaks in the most positive terms. [Footnote 10] The Constitution is silent about the permissibility of involuntary forfeiture of citizenship rights. [Footnote 11] While it confirms citizenship rights, plainly there are imperative obligations of citizenship performance of which Congress in the exercise of its powers may constitutionally exact. One of the most important of these is to serve the country in time of war and national emergency. The powers of Congress to require military service for the common defense are broad and far-reaching, [Footnote 12]


for, while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact. Similarly, Congress has broad power under the Necessary and Proper Clause to enact legislation for the regulation of foreign affairs. Latitude in this area is necessary to ensure effectuation of this indispensable function of government. [Footnote 13]


  372 US 159


While that phrase is meaningless you seem to misconstrue how it is used.  It is saying that we don't need to go beyond the constittuion because of the manner in which it is written rather than we may because it sucks.



The issue was specifically that the constitution did provide authority to congress to carry out its duties, which isn't the case here.



Perhaps the most silly thing of your invokation of that phrase is what the court actually held.  They specifically held that the remedy sought in that case could be had by the government by the constitution but not without due process.  They specifically ruled the extrajudicial, without due process, actions sought by the government to be illegal.

Quote:

It is fundamental that the great powers of Congress to conduct war and to regulate the Nation's foreign relations are subject to the constitutional requirements of due

Page 372 U. S. 165

process. [Footnote 17] The imperative necessity for safeguarding these rights to procedural due process under the gravest of emergencies has existed throughout our constitutional history, for it is then, under the pressing exigencies of crisis, that there is the greatest temptation to dispense with fundamental constitutional guarantees which, it is feared, will inhibit governmental action.

"The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances."
...

We conclude, for the reasons stated, that §§ 401(j) and 349(a)(10) are punitive, and, as such, cannot constitutionally stand, lacking as they do the procedural safeguards which the Constitution commands. [Footnote 43] We recognize that draft evasion, particularly in time of war, is a heinous offense, and should and can be properly punished. Dating back to Magna Carta, however, it has been an abiding principle governing the lives of civilized men that "no freeman shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or outlawed or exiled . . . without the judgment of his peers or by the law of the land. . . ." [Footnote 44] What we hold is only that, in keeping with this cherished tradition, punishment cannot be imposed "without due process of law." Any lesser holding would ignore the constitutional mandate upon which our essential liberties depend. Therefore, the judgments of the District Courts in these cases are affirmed.






Compare that to this case.  Now you are trying to claim the phrase was used to justify evading the constitution (rather than the court's use which was to observe that the constitution's elastic clause provided breadth in carrying out congress's enumerated powers) which is incorrect and alleging that this phrase sumarizes the justification to torture.  How funny then that the court specifically held that despite congress having explicit authority in that case that they could not invoke such without due process.



So what exactly is your point?  You've turned the phrase on its head.  You've also used it to reach a holding entirely opposite to the court's holding even when it used that phrase, and advocated extrajudicial punishment.



And how is their no constitutionality issue in the present case?  A person may not be deprived of life nor liberty without due process of law and may not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment nor may be deprived of his right to petition a court for relief.  Your statement only holds if you presume we are only talking about acts which escape these claused through their nature or by evading the jurisdiction of the courts.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214753 - 04/22/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's pretty fucking stupid.  Lincoln suspended it when necessary and it has been perverted for decades.  People dieing for some dubious legality?  You need to get your hands out of your pants on a more regular basis.

By the way, there is no Constitutionality issue in the current discussion.





"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10214761 - 04/22/09 05:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Eighth Amendment, Cruel and Unusual punishment shall not be administered.




It's not punishment
Quote:



Geneva Convention, cannot torture prisoners of war (fuck off with that enemy combatant bullshit, they are POW's)




Sorry, you don't get to rewrite the convention to suit your fatuous argument
Quote:



UN convention against torture.


Who cares.  They aren't the boss of us.
Quote:



All of these are violated via the excessive torture of prisoners.



They weren't tortured.  Sorry, Mary.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Chespirito]
    #10214779 - 04/22/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's pretty fucking stupid.  Lincoln suspended it when necessary and it has been perverted for decades.  People dieing for some dubious legality?  You need to get your hands out of your pants on a more regular basis.

By the way, there is no Constitutionality issue in the current discussion.





"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."



Well then, it's clearly Constitutional then, isn't it, the public safety being involved?
I have not read that there was a Constitutional issue, merely legal interpretations of laws.  Why do you think foreign national combatants are protected by our Constitution?  If they were every POW would require a trial and they clearly do not.  Never have.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10214796 - 04/22/09 05:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Rawr! Terrorists isn't peoples! Waterboarding is fun! :crankey:

Seriously Zappa, you have no idea what you're talking about. You live in a fictional world where the US is the only bastion of hope in a dark and evil world. And if we have to violate the Constitution and the Geneva convention to save our glorious nation from the evil brown people then so be it. You're a fucking nazi and you don't even realize it



Although I'm sure waterboarding can be fun it wasn't used for amusement in these cases.  It had actual real world benefits, as has been demonstrated. It saved lives.  Zubaydah himself said so.  Why are you aiding and abetting murderers?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214802 - 04/22/09 05:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So, I can come over and waterboard you? Because it's not torture or punishment? It's just a little good cop bad cop? Just status quo?

You call them non-uniformed murderers, do we waterboard murderers in this country? As for the convention, from the third convention

Quote:

Section 1 covers the beginning of captivity (Articles 17–20). It dictates what information a prisoner must give and interrogation methods that the detaining power may not use "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion".




Pretty clear there, let's go on shall we?

As for the UN, I already explained your warped world view to you but here in the real world we actually function as an international society as well as a national one. Part of that involves adhering to the rule of law, despite no coercion to do so. All this has been true since the era of liberal internationalism which began around 1920, so hey, you should be old enough to know about it.

You're like Dickhead Cheney, just making up facts as it pleases you because we're America damn it! And the whole world is out to get us. Maybe you should consider going back to school, because your ass was just handed to you.

If you need anymore lessons let me know.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10214859 - 04/22/09 05:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

For your enlightenment murderers and all other prisoners in max security are treated far worse by their fellow inmates. 
Warterboarding is not torture, Mary.  Simulated drowning is not torture.  Real drowning is.  Simulated isn't.  Perhaps you would like to have tea with Zubby and Khalid.  They seem like your kind of people.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214894 - 04/22/09 05:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well then, how about beatings? Stress positions? Simulated executions?

I can come over and waterboard you then? You're ok with that? And for my enlightenment, they're treated badly by other prisoners, so criminals. Guess that makes us criminals for treating them badly as well? Looks like you knocked out the only feeble leg you had to stand on. And my name's not Mary, it's Neo! Gastronomicus! I'm done reading your paltry lies. And no, Zubby and Khalid aren't my kind of people. I like laws, they don't so I guess that makes them your kind of people. Terrorist nazi scum


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10216028 - 04/22/09 08:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Gastronomicus said:

Geneva Convention, cannot torture prisoners of war (fuck off with that enemy combatant bullshit, they are POW's)




Sorry, you don't get to rewrite the convention to suit your fatuous argument
Quote:









I'm sorry , did I miss something?


Are you just repeating this as often as you can untill people start bleieving it?



Are you still claiming they are not prisoner's of war?  How do you know?



Have you read the transcripts?  Did those folks seem pretty scary to you?  In many cases the evidence that they were combatents was pretty shitty (like a guy having an ak47 in his house and some other dude claiming, through heresay, that he was a rebel).


Regardless, how you can still be claiming they are not POW's is beyond me.  You have never provided any evidence of this.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10216039 - 04/22/09 08:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
For your enlightenment murderers and all other prisoners in max security are treated far worse by their fellow inmates. 
Warterboarding is not torture, Mary.  Simulated drowning is not torture.  Real drowning is.  Simulated isn't.  Perhaps you would like to have tea with Zubby and Khalid.  They seem like your kind of people.






Source?


And what is the relevance?

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10216209 - 04/22/09 08:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Warterboarding is not torture, Mary. 




Then why did we prosecute those Japanese officers for it?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10216605 - 04/22/09 09:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

we did not. they where prosecute for the death march, not providing aid to injured POW, killing of POWs, killing surrendering forces.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10216805 - 04/22/09 10:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Then why did we prosecute those Japanese officers for it?



:winner:


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10217638 - 04/23/09 12:29 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The LA plan being busted from waterboarding is bullshit.  The plans were broken before our little Middle Eastern buddy was even put under water. Get your time line straight.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10217745 - 04/23/09 01:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Practiced on American soldiers? Could you source that?




Its true.  I know someone that was training for some elite special forces thing, and in the final test they staged a fake foreign takeover of the base.  They took the guy and waterboarded him and tried to get him to spill secrets.  He didn't and passed the test.

Quote:

For your enlightenment murderers and all other prisoners in max security are treated far worse by their fellow inmates.
Warterboarding is not torture, Mary.  Simulated drowning is not torture.  Real drowning is.  Simulated isn't.





Waterboarding is surely torture, it makes you think you are drowning and about to die.  There aren't many other things that are worse.

Waterboarding is a threat to the security of the US - Once we do it to someone they will do whatever it takes to destroy us.  Not a good use of tax dollars.

Torture provides bad information, they will say all sorts of random crap if you make them feel like they are dieing.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10217829 - 04/23/09 01:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Wherein is this a Constitutional issue and wherein are non-uniform murders covered by the Geneva Convention?  Nowhere.  Keep making shit up.





I don't see how you can be saying:


a) that nobody was wearing appropriate markings that was a combatant

b) everyone was a combatent

c) the combatents are war criminals if they don't wear uniforms




  If you disagree that's fine, but I wish you'd stop trying to represent the legal issues as if they are self evident and asserting factual issues which you can't possibly know.


You've been called on this before and i don't recall you having any rationalization for such assertions then either.  This seems far more ambiguous then you make it out to be.


On what do you base your claims that they aren't pow's?  Demonstrate it.  They are entitled to a presumption that they are till proven otherwise if its at all unclear, or at least entitled to be treated as if they are POW's untill a tribunal finds them not to be- we certainly seem to have acted questionably with regards to that.

Edited by johnm214 (04/23/09 02:17 AM)

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10218679 - 04/23/09 08:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The Geneva Convention requires combatants to wear identifying uniforms so as to distinguish themselves from civilians, which is for the purpose of protecting civilians.  Failure to do so, in my opinion, invalidates any Geneva Convention protections.

The "waterboarding" practiced by the Japanese was a radically different procedure from the one practiced by the CIA.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/justice_dept_official_cia_wate.php
Quote:

The Spanish and Japanese use of "water torture," he said, "involved the forced consumption of a mass amount of water." Asked by a Republican whether Bradbury was aware of any "modern use" of waterboarding that involved the "lungs filling with water," Bradbury said no.

The Japanese forced the ingestion of so much water that it was "beyond the capacity of the victim's stomach." Weight or pressure was then applied by standing or jumping on the stomach of the victim, sometimes leading to "blood coming of the victim's mouth." The Spanish Inquisition would use the technique to the point of "agony or death."

But the CIA wasn't doing that, he argued. "Strict time limits" were involved -- presumably governing the length of time that interrogators could induce the sensation of drowning. There were "safeguards" and "restrictions" that made it a much more controlled procedure. Because of that, he said, the technique did not amount to torture.

But Bradbury said that subsequent laws and Supreme Court decisions passed in 2005 and 2006 had changed his office's analysis, and in 2006 the CIA removed waterboarding from its authorized battery of interrogation techniques.




I bolded that last because it shows that Congress could have passed a law banning it any time it saw fit.  The lesson from these memos is not that the Bush Administration was trampling the Constitution and the applicable laws but that they bent over backwards to comply.  Once again, Congress could have banned the technique any time it wanted to.

Further, the Japanese practice was prosecuted when used against a civilian:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html
Quote:

Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian.




Liars and fools continue to assert that X is Y because they are both called letters.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10218737 - 04/23/09 08:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As I've asserted previously, the geneva convention does not require uniforms for someone to be a POW (it doesn't require uniforms at all I believe your referring to the distinctive mark requirement which could simply be a flag or something on the sleeve)- their are other situations in which a combatant may be a POW or be required to be treated as a POW, such as spontaneously resisting the US force prior to occupation. 


You've yet to proffer evidence that establishes these men either weren't POW's or weren't required to be treated as POW's untill it was ruled by a competent tribunal that they weren't.  As such I don't know why you keep asserting this fact.



And yes, it is well known that the people bitching about Bush are the same ones that went along smiling and posing for photo ops the whole time in many cases.  This is well established.  Obama, Pelosi, the whole gang supported all sorts of stuff they later whined about.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10218792 - 04/23/09 08:38 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I dare say the entire contents of the memos, wherein this is hashed and rehashed establishes that a competent tribunal did decide on it.  Who would you prefer, Mickey Mouse and Friends?  Don't even say the UN.  Don't go there girlfriend, they aren't competent at anything.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10218815 - 04/23/09 08:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I've not read anything but excerpts of the memos yet so I wouldn't know, though I am not aware of tribunals that even were allowed to pass on the question, though I'm not 100%


That was my major problem with how bush was doing things.  He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't.  And from the transcripts of some of the hearings there is serious doubt whether some of those folks are combatents at all- in which case they would be POW's.


In any case it doesn't really matter, I was just refuting your claim that you know they weren't POW's.  What tribunal established the captives as not POWs though?

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10218857 - 04/23/09 08:55 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't.

Not really an accurate statement.  The Guantanamo Bay Detainee Administrative Review Board examined every detainee to determine if they were indeed an enemy combatant or not.  The ARB found nearly 40 detainees were not enemy combatants.  I'm not claiming that the process was fair, or that it was open to the public, but there is/was a process in place.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
    #10218978 - 04/23/09 09:24 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

John wants to tribunal shop until he finds one that agrees with him.  Until he does...ILLEGITIMATE!  FTW1111


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10219144 - 04/23/09 09:59 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> John wants to tribunal shop until he finds one that agrees with him.  Until he does...ILLEGITIMATE!  FTW1111

From what I have read, it sounds like he wants US criminal court principles applied to the detainees.  Although I understand this reasoning, the detainees are not under the jurisdiction of the US courts, but are instead under the jurisdiction of the US military.  Unfortunately for me, I can argue it either way...


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
    #10219161 - 04/23/09 10:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Unfortunately for me, I can argue it either way...




Isn't that how it goes?

In a world full of imperfect solutions I can argue many things both ways.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
    #10219182 - 04/23/09 10:05 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't.

Not really an accurate statement.  The Guantanamo Bay Detainee Administrative Review Board examined every detainee to determine if they were indeed an enemy combatant or not.  The ARB found nearly 40 detainees were not enemy combatants.  I'm not claiming that the process was fair, or that it was open to the public, but there is/was a process in place.






Do you have a source for that?  (that they could argue they were POW's and the tribunal could grant that relief?)


My understanding is that they did not have the power to declare someone a POW and were deciding on whether they were a combatant or not, and if they were then they were illegal.  This was one of the major problems with the initial tribunals and I wasn't aware that ever got fixed.  If I recall this was an issue at oral arguments in the supreme court case as well, I just forget if the appellate court had jurisdiction to grant a US citizen habeas corpus proceedings (even after Bush stated citizens would get it regardless, their didn't appear to be a mechanism to demand such) or consider whether the detainee was entitled to POW protection.


I realize my quote in the above was incorrect, I wasn't debating that they got the ability to challenge their combatency, as it were, but rather they couldn't establish, to my knowledge, their status as a pow or other protected party- it came out different then I thought.  They also appeared to have been no procedure to provide them POW treatment pending the tribunal if it was demanded by the treaty- though I have no way of knowing if this is a violation since I don't know if any of them were POW's.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
    #10219249 - 04/23/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> John wants to tribunal shop until he finds one that agrees with him.  Until he does...ILLEGITIMATE!  FTW1111

From what I have read, it sounds like he wants US criminal court principles applied to the detainees.  Although I understand this reasoning, the detainees are not under the jurisdiction of the US courts, but are instead under the jurisdiction of the US military.  Unfortunately for me, I can argue it either way...






Nope, I've said several times I think civil procedure would be fine.  (though I think they should have the right to face their accuser in addition if the testimony is alleging directly that they commited the unlawful acts)

But this isn't about that, its about following the geneva convention.

The geneva convention doesn't make all those combatents without distinguishing marks per se unlawful combatents, and in case of any doubt they are to be treated as POW's till adjudicated otherwise.


It appears they had no process to be adjudicated otherwise and no process to prove they were not.


Bush created this mess.  If he would have held the tribunals more than a bajillion years after the fact they might have, you know, been able to find half the witnesses they were using to convict these guys with (on hearsay evidence).  Its not like the prospects of loosing the tribunal is terrible for the government, they still get to imprison the folks until hostilities cease.  For all we know the ones that aren't being tortured, as per the geneva convention's definition, are allready recieving pretty much the same treatment they'd otherwise recieve as POW's.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10219390 - 04/23/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Bush created the mess?  I don't think Bush was responsible for decades of failure to pass clear laws.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10219437 - 04/23/09 11:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

oh hoh, but he doesn't get it both ways man.


He claims the AUMF allows everything under the sun including his warantless wiretapping shenanigans and somehow it doesn't allow him to release the guys he captured or treat them as prisoner's of war?


He had the authority to get the tribunals rolling right away- he needed no authorization from congress to release folks who passed his process.


He created the mess with his failure to do jack shit for many years, and now both sides' witnesses apear to have evaporated.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10219594 - 04/23/09 11:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think he did exactly what was required.  If Congress disagreed they certainly had the power to change it.  You, on the other hand, are powerless and irrelevant.  Thankfully so, I might add.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10219618 - 04/23/09 11:39 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Feel free to make an argument rather than what you are thinking.


Whether congress agreed isn't the issue.  He's commander in chief, he had the AUMF, he didn't provide adequate procedures to my knowledge, and his dilatory tactics screwed shit up.


If we don't want to follow the geneva convention we should withdraw.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10219688 - 04/23/09 11:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed we should.  It is a joke.  By the way, we never ratified, and thus are not bound by, the 1977 protocols of the Geneva Convention.  It is because of this:
Article 44.-Combatants and prisoners of war

Quote:

The most controversial section of Protocol 1 is Article 44, especially Paragraphs 3 - 5. It is the primary cause for several United States of America administrations not ratifying this protocol, due to its treatment of captured insurgents and guerrillas (see Francs-tireurs); who do not satisfy the requirements of Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention; as prisoners of war or an equivalent status.

3. In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in such situations, he carries his arms openly:

( a ) During each military engagement, and

( b ) During such time as he is visible to the adversary while he is engaged in a military deployment preceding the launching of an attack in which he is to participate.

Acts which comply with the requirements of this paragraph shall not be considered as perfidious within the meaning of Article 37, paragraph 1 ( c ).

4. A combatant who falls into the power of an adverse Party while failing to meet the requirements set forth in the second sentence of paragraph 3 shall forfeit his right to be a prisoner of war, but he shall, nevertheless, be given protections equivalent in all respects to those accorded to prisoners of war by the Third Convention and by this Protocol. This protection includes protections equivalent to those accorded to prisoners of war by the Third Convention in the case where such a person is tried and punished for any offences he has committed.

5. Any combatant who falls into the power of an adverse Party while not engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack shall not forfeit his rights to be a combatant and a prisoner of war by virtue of his prior activities.

Francs-tireurs, insurgents and guerrillas were afforded prisoner of war status by the Third Geneva Convention provided that they carried arms openly, had superiors they were responsible to and distinguished themselves from civilians by a distinctive sign, i.e. an armband.

Protocol I extends these protections offered to Francs-tireurs, insurgents and guerrillas in the Third Geneva Convention by giving them prisoner of war status even if they don't distinguish themselves from the civilian population. Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention requires combatants to have a "fixed distinctive sign recognisable at a distance"; Protocol I releases lawful combatants from this obligation. Without such distinctive identification lawful combatants can come under attack from enemies posing as civilians without the enemy committing perfidy or affecting the legality of their combat status. Civilians may be more likely to be attacked by combatants who are threatened by an undistinguishable enemy. This is especially relevant in peace keeping operations as whilst civilian police forces are trained to assess a situation and only to fire if certain of their targets' hostile intent, militaries are trained to assess targets and attack if not certain of their peaceful intent.

Protocol I further gives all combatants, lawful under Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention or not, an equivalent status to 'prisoner of war' with the same rights and protections, when captured, regardless of their adherence to the laws of war. Whilst prisoner of war status under the Third Geneva Convention is contingent upon adherence to the laws of war, under Protocol I no breach of the laws of war can place an enemy combatant outside the scope of any rights or protections afforded to captured lawful enemy combatants.




We never ratified it.  It has zero bearing.  Several administrations.  Several.  And not ratified by Congress.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10219944 - 04/23/09 12:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, well I'm relying on the third one anyways that was signed around WWII's end I believe  "relative to treatment of prisoner's of war" or something.


I also don't find its provisions onerous or at all objectionable.



I think it is both a sign of a decent country that they abide by these provisions and if anything avoids the hypothetical situation where a country treats us like we treat them, though who knows if that would ever happen anyways.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10220547 - 04/23/09 02:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, that would be nice if there was a quid pro quo.  But there isn't.  Ever.  For a further illustration of what we and other civilized nations find in our Islamist enemy see this
Quote:

IDF probes opened following the offensive discovered that Haniyeh and other senior Hamas commanders took over a ward of the hospital, the Gaza Strip's largest, and set up a command center for the duration of the campaign.

Hamas believed that Israel would not target the hospital due to the high risk of collateral damage.

Guards were posted at the entrance to the ward and field commanders took advantage of the humanitarian corridor and cessation of action that the IDF instituted every day for several hours, to enter the hospital and meet with senior Hamas officials to receive instructions.

Senior Hamas commanders also set up a command center in a Red Crescent Society clinic in Khan Yunis and used it as a detention center.



Nice indeed.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221572 - 04/23/09 06:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yeah, that would be nice if there was a quid pro quo.  But there isn't.  Ever.

Nice indeed.



Why would there be if we don't ever practice what we preach?  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
    #10221582 - 04/23/09 06:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't.

Not really an accurate statement.  The Guantanamo Bay Detainee Administrative Review Board examined every detainee to determine if they were indeed an enemy combatant or not.  The ARB found nearly 40 detainees were not enemy combatants.  I'm not claiming that the process was fair, or that it was open to the public, but there is/was a process in place.





When did that process begin?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221589 - 04/23/09 06:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think he did exactly what was required.  If Congress disagreed they certainly had the power to change it.  You, on the other hand, are powerless and irrelevant.  Thankfully so, I might add.




Yes, because you republicans are so relevant right now.  LOL.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10221598 - 04/23/09 06:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
we did not. they where prosecute for the death march, not providing aid to injured POW, killing of POWs, killing surrendering forces.




And waterboarding.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10221615 - 04/23/09 06:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think he did exactly what was required.  If Congress disagreed they certainly had the power to change it.  You, on the other hand, are powerless and irrelevant.  Thankfully so, I might add.




Yes, because you republicans are so relevant right now.  LOL.



Who do you think you are?  Rahm Emanuel?  You are mud, my man, mud.  You have no power at all.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221648 - 04/23/09 06:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think he did exactly what was required.  If Congress disagreed they certainly had the power to change it.  You, on the other hand, are powerless and irrelevant.  Thankfully so, I might add.




Yes, because you republicans are so relevant right now.  LOL.



Who do you think you are?  Rahm Emanuel?  You are mud, my man, mud.  You have no power at all.





That's true.  But watching you rant about other peoples' irrelevance is particularly amusing, seeing as how "your side" lost 2 branches of government in 2 years, and now have precisely as much say in how things get done as Obama and Pelosi are willing to allow them.

Let me say that again:  Your side has precisely as much say in how things get done as Obama and Pelosi allow them.

Personally, I think that's funny as hell.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10221652 - 04/23/09 06:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

My side has never been in power.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221655 - 04/23/09 06:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

That would be fucking terrifying.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221675 - 04/23/09 06:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
My side has never been in power.





Sure.  You're one of those "independents" that spend all day defending GOP policy, right?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10221708 - 04/23/09 06:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I spend my time defending conservativism.  If you can, please show me when it was ever in power.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221715 - 04/23/09 06:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I spend my time defending conservativism.  If you can, please show me when it was ever in power.





Torture and "state secrets" are conservative principles?  Okay.


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Edited by TGRR (04/23/09 06:34 PM)

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10221733 - 04/23/09 06:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

State secrets are neither liberal nor conservative, they are wise.  Torture?  What torture?  The Dems signed off on all of the policies, Mary.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221740 - 04/23/09 06:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
State secrets are neither liberal nor conservative, they are wise.




Okay, Comrade.

Quote:

zappaisgod said: Torture?  What torture?  The Dems signed off on all of the policies, Mary.




So prosecute them too, Susan.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10221745 - 04/23/09 06:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Nope.  I'd rather prosecute you for uselessness.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221755 - 04/23/09 06:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Nope.  I'd rather prosecute you for uselessness.




I await my imminent arrest.  Do you think I have time for one last cigar?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10221771 - 04/23/09 06:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Make it a Davidoff.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221781 - 04/23/09 06:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Make it a Davidoff.





I prefer cheap cigars.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10221818 - 04/23/09 06:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Of course you do.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221881 - 04/23/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I smoke marijuana.

From America.

Fucking communists, with your cigars.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10221900 - 04/23/09 07:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Of course you do.



Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I smoke marijuana.

From America.

Fucking communists, with your cigars.




Eat a dick, capitalist gringo!

TGRR,
Like Castro, only without the power.  Or the money.  Or that amazing fucking beard.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10225482 - 04/24/09 10:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

or all the pussy?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10225706 - 04/24/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't.

Not really an accurate statement.  The Guantanamo Bay Detainee Administrative Review Board examined every detainee to determine if they were indeed an enemy combatant or not.  The ARB found nearly 40 detainees were not enemy combatants.  I'm not claiming that the process was fair, or that it was open to the public, but there is/was a process in place.





When did that process begin?






It didn't.  I messed up the statement seuss was responding to.


Seuss is referring to the tribunals which distinguish whether someone was a combatent or not.



I meant to say I think their was never a process for finding if someone was a pow.


Hence the stupid claims in the media and zappa's assurances are worthless.



Lets say you see americans come into your country and you pick up your gun and start fighting them.  You are a pow.


There's other situations too, yet the false choice that was put to the detainees was to claim they were fighting or not rather than fighting illegally or not.


Despite cokcy assurances, I've seen nobody ever provide any information that establishes these people aren't POW's nor that we would know if they were.


Its all some big secret, and the media is just ridiculous in how they refuse to question to official proclamations of them all being not POW's.  I've never seen a report on that.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10225790 - 04/24/09 12:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think releasing information about the specific "interrogation methods" used, is as relevant as a blanket policy of do we torture, or do we not.

These policies demonstrate, that to some degree, our definition of "torture" is subjective.  You can waterboard for 10 seconds, but not 12, or 15?  50 times is O.K. 85 is not.  Give me a break.  I'd be very curious to see the rationale for setting the "limits" on these methods (if there is any).

As such, we can just make up "new limits" or justify "new techniques" for information extraction.  Ripping out thumbnails is not allowed, but a pinky nail is fine.

Hell, i could come up with several techniques that tip-toe the line of "torture".  Thus, I don't think knowing the limits of our techniques poses much of a threat.

It just means we'll have to brainstorm some new techniques.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: badchad]
    #10225824 - 04/24/09 12:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I disagree.  It is valuable information for the enemy to have.  For instance, they now know that we will not go far enough to actually harm them.  Uncertainty is possibly the most powerful tool in the interrogator's arsenal and that has been taken away by an incompetent douche for no reason other than to polish his own knob.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10225868 - 04/24/09 12:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I guess my point is that the current "limits" of interrogation seem to be subjectively defined to some degree.

As such, we can just redefine them. If need be we'll need to brainstorm and expand our arsenal.

I feel the bigger issue is our blanket policy: Do we, or do we not use pain to extract info.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: badchad]
    #10225934 - 04/24/09 12:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Somewhat.  And fear.  Now most of the fear has been taken away.  Because of Obama's knob polishing.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10226066 - 04/24/09 01:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It is valuable information for the enemy to have.  For instance, they now know that we will not go far enough to actually harm them.





Its actually good that they know that, one less way to rationalize away killing lots of people.  If the terrorists thought that we would torture/harm them they would feel much more justified waging war against civilians. 

Quote:

I feel the bigger issue is our blanket policy: Do we, or do we not use pain to extract info.




We should never do that, the info people give up in those circumstances is crap and its not worth having our law enforcement investigating all that drivel and false leads.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10226094 - 04/24/09 01:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It isn't law enforcement, the info is often accurate and useful, and there is NO reason to believe that anybody has ever attacked us because we use mean interrogation methods.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10226127 - 04/24/09 01:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It isn't law enforcement,




The CIA shouldn't waste their time on bad leads either.

Quote:

the info is often accurate and useful,




Really?  Do you have a source for that? 

Quote:

and there is NO reason to believe that anybody has ever attacked us because we use mean interrogation methods.




I would certainly attack whoever used harsh interrogation methods on me, I would probably dedicate my life to destroying any country who did that.  I am sure I am not the only person who has that opinion, its probably even more widespread amongst terrorists.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10226246 - 04/24/09 01:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Really?  Do you have a source for that? 



Yes.

Pay more attention.


--------------------
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10226359 - 04/24/09 01:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So the intelligence director said the intelligence agency is effective? Who would have guessed?

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Redstorm]
    #10226367 - 04/24/09 01:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Of course, his statements are not falsifiable, due to their secure nature.  I wish I could say whatever I wanted to not have to prove things.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10226576 - 04/24/09 02:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Really?  Do you have a source for that? 



Yes.

Pay more attention.





I am well aware that the intelligence community is claiming that they work, but its obvious that they are just attempting to cover their ass.  As you know they are in very hot water in the past couple days and "they gave us valuable info" is the only possible excuse that they can give, they would be making the same argument regardless of how much info they got so I don't find him even remotely credible.  If they actually got anything worthwhile they would surely trumpet the news, show all the lives saved, etc. 

Hundreds of episodes of torture gave us "a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country".

Really?  Is that the best they can come up with?  Thats a pretty nebulus statement, and of course he knows he will never have to back it up because all the details are classified.

What makes him think that the details of al Qa'idas organizational structure that were spilled in these torture sessions were accurate?


Torture causes hate.

Hate causes terrorism.

The US really needs to stay on the moral high ground here and the torture brings us down to their level while increasing hatred and terrorism.

If you get tortured its human nature to go fuck some shit up. 

It seems to me that the war on terror is creating new terrorists every day.  This will surely keep their paychecks rolling in and keep budget cuts away but its counterproductive for the safety and security of the USA.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Redstorm]
    #10226587 - 04/24/09 02:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well then Barry should release the rest of the reports that support that.  By the way, several intelligence directors have asserted that accurate and useful information was gleaned, not just Blair.  Then again, you won't believe those either so what difference does it make?  You have made up your mind.  On this issue you are apparently dogmatic.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10226634 - 04/24/09 02:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Well then Barry should release the rest of the reports that support that. 




Yes he really should.

Quote:

By the way, several intelligence directors have asserted that accurate and useful information was gleaned, not just Blair.  Then again, you won't believe those either so what difference does it make?




They are all covering their asses heavily these days, I don't believe them.

Quote:

You have made up your mind.




Your weak assertions aren't doing a good job of changing it. 

Quote:

On this issue you are apparently dogmatic.




Since you don't have any actual arguments you might as well continue with the ad hominem.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10226926 - 04/24/09 03:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was replying to Redstorm but the same holds true for you.  There is no evidence that will satisfy you, you're mind has been made up.  You are hence dogmatic.  That is not an ad hominem.  It is a statement of fact as proven by yourself and Redstorm.  I have repeatedly made the argument and provided sources to support it that there was effective accurate and useful information gleaned from these practices.  Your answer?  BUSH LIES.  FTW!!!11111.  Spare me your trite whining about ad hominems and re-examine the meaning of the phrase.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10227054 - 04/24/09 03:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well then Barry should release the rest of the reports that support that.  By the way, several intelligence directors have asserted that accurate and useful information was gleaned, not just Blair.  Then again, you won't believe those either so what difference does it make?  You have made up your mind.  On this issue you are apparently dogmatic.




This is of course an ad hominem.

It is entirely irrelevant and is assuredly an argument to the person- you are saying the person is unreasonable which has nothing to do with the question of whether your statement can be substantiated.


Your only argument is "some guy said so".



Do you vote based on what political appointees tell you too?


We asked you for evidence, not some guy saying "well you can't see the evidence, but believe me, if you saw it you'd be convinced."

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10227483 - 04/24/09 04:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I was replying to Redstorm but the same holds true for you.  There is no evidence that will satisfy you, you're mind has been made up.  You are hence dogmatic.  That is not an ad hominem.  It is a statement of fact as proven by yourself and Redstorm.  I have repeatedly made the argument and provided sources to support it that there was effective accurate and useful information gleaned from these practices.  Your answer?  BUSH LIES.  FTW!!!11111.  Spare me your trite whining about ad hominems and re-examine the meaning of the phrase.





Who cares IF it is(and I am not conceding that it is) effective?  It's still a violation of a ratified treaty, and thus a violation of the US constitution.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Redstorm]
    #10227767 - 04/24/09 06:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
So the intelligence director said the intelligence agency is effective? Who would have guessed?



Not quite.

Obama's intelligence director was talking about what happened during the Bush years.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10228035 - 04/24/09 06:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I have repeatedly made the argument and provided sources to support it that there was effective accurate and useful information gleaned from these practices.  Your answer?  BUSH LIES.




The fact that bush lies is irrelevant.  These intelligence directors are facing possible criminal charges so they have a massive incentive to lie and overstate the usefullness of information obtained through torture.

You are ignoring the fact that torturing someone makes them want to kill you.  Throwing gasoline on a fire to put it out doesn't usually work all that well.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10228666 - 04/24/09 09:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Who cares IF it is(and I am not conceding that it is) effective?  It's still a violation of a ratified treaty, and thus a violation of the US constitution.



BINGO!!!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10228691 - 04/24/09 09:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
I would certainly attack whoever used harsh interrogation methods on me, I would probably dedicate my life to destroying any country who did that.  I am sure I am not the only person who has that opinion, its probably even more widespread amongst terrorists.



Alan, zappa and so many conservatives think that Americans are the only ones to get pissed off when their people are fucked with.  We both know that when someone messes with an American, there will be hell to pay (especially under Republican leadership).  But when America fucks with others, they seem to believe no one cares.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10230579 - 04/25/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
I would certainly attack whoever used harsh interrogation methods on me, I would probably dedicate my life to destroying any country who did that.  I am sure I am not the only person who has that opinion, its probably even more widespread amongst terrorists.



Alan, zappa and so many conservatives think that Americans are the only ones to get pissed off when their people are fucked with.  We both know that when someone messes with an American, there will be hell to pay (especially under Republican leadership).  But when America fucks with others, they seem to believe no one cares.



Alan may not have noticed that the people being harshly interrogated were already devoted to attacking the US.  Of course a couple tokes of dank together and it'll  be all good.  Cumbaya.
And the fact that when somebody messed with the US we did NOTHING is exactly what encouraged al Q.  See Iran in 1980 and Clinton's folly in Mogadishu.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10230617 - 04/25/09 10:40 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Wow yet more overconfident assertions that "they're all:  a) terrorists b) enemy combatents c) not POW's d) radcial US attackers"


You have any proof of that, or are you arguing the most favorable set of presumptions despite the fact its your burden to defend the least favorable set of presumptions to hold your point valid?

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10230658 - 04/25/09 10:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

There doesn't seem to be much doubt about the people who were enhanced.  If you can think of one I'd appreciate the example.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10230765 - 04/25/09 11:30 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
So the intelligence director said the intelligence agency is effective? Who would have guessed?



Not quite.

Obama's intelligence director was talking about what happened during the Bush years.





Who cares?  If he says "no, it didn't work", then the argument becomes whether or not to castrate his organizations, not whether or not it works.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10230778 - 04/25/09 11:33 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Alan may not have noticed that the people being harshly interrogated were already devoted to attacking the US. 





Well, except for the 200 or so they released from Abu Ghraib after they figured out they weren't involved in anything, but AFTER they'd been tortured, of course.

Likewise with the 80+ people that were released from Gitmo in 2006/2007.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10230960 - 04/25/09 12:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There doesn't seem to be much doubt about the people who were enhanced.  If you can think of one I'd appreciate the example.






a)  Who all got the enhanced treatment?  A source is fine


b)  I'm confused.  Are you arguing to defend the past practices or to establish that the power is a good one?


Cuz I thought the debate was more generally over whether we should continue using these practices, which is only somewhat informed by the past cases.  If these practices are good against people who are attacking america then why don't we limit their application to such?  Do you support that?  If not your claims aren't really to the point your trying to establish: what power should they have and why should they have it?

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10231425 - 04/25/09 02:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alan may not have noticed that the people being harshly interrogated were already devoted to attacking the US.





No matter how devoted you are to attacking the USA, its always possible to become more devoted.


When deciding who to pick up, its extremely easy to get the wrong guy when you don't speak the language or understand the culture.  Surely we have tortured innocent people too. 

Torturing guilty people is really bad as well - When they find a way to communicate to the outside world they will tell their friends all sorts of true stories about US torture and then they really will have a reason to come over here and blow shit up.

I don't really think terrorism is such a bad problem that we need to torture people to try to stop it.

Even if torture not counterproductive, consider this:

Deaths in the USA every year from non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs such as Aspirin: 7,600
Deaths in the USA from Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity: 365,000
Terrorism deaths, worldwide:  5000 (2001), usually is around 2000
Auto accidents: 46,000 per year in the US

According to this paper, auto accidents cause 390 times more deaths than terrorism.

Given the small magnitude of the terrorism problem compared to the other death risks we face every day, it doesn't make sense to torture people to attempt to prevent a very small number of deaths.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10231432 - 04/25/09 02:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Amen


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

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I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: dill705]
    #10231519 - 04/25/09 02:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Wow, seven pages in and there's an arguement that torture should be considered? God have mercy on your soul.

Waterboarding is just a newspeak term for drowning. Why were they drowned over and over again? Because sadists like torturing people. They didn't care what they said, they just wanted their fun. And the taxpayer ends up paying for their sick perversion.

Torture has never worked. Waterboarding didn't work in the Spanish Inquisition, and it won't work now. All this will do is send a message of "When we capture you, we'll torture you, guilty or not."

Hey, was it [url=http://www.prisonplanet.com/cia-ludicrously-claims-torture-prevented-debunked-la-terror-plot.html]this[/url Kalid Shiek Mohammed?

Quote:

  CIA Ludicrously Claims Torture Prevented Debunked L.A. Terror Plot

Agency claims waterboarding KSM prevented attack, despite alleged plot being debunked by scores of intelligence professionals in 2006

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Wednesday, April 22, 2009

As the controversy surrounding revelations of the Bush administration’s torture program builds, the CIA has attempted to diffuse the furore by claiming that the torture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed prevented a terror attack on an L.A. skyscraper, a completely ludicrous assertion since the credibility of the alleged “L.A. attack plot” was debunked by scores of intelligence professionals years ago.

“The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) — including the use of waterboarding — caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles,” reports CNS News.

This claim was made the day after after former Vice-President Dick Cheney urged the CIA to “put out the memos that show the success of the effort….reports that show specifically what we gained as a result of this activity.”

The “planned attack on Los Angeles” refers to an announcement made on February 9th 2006 in which it was claimed that an Al-Qaeda plan to fly a plane into the LA Library Tower was thwarted in 2002. The release of the news that the plot had been prevented by means of tapping terrorist suspect’s phone, and not torture as the CIA now claims, was politically timed to coincide with the start of legal hearings on the Bush administration’s domestic eavesdropping program.

Fox “News,” the White House’s PR mouthpiece, immediately began showing footage from the movie Independence Day, in which the famous tower is destroyed.

Hours after the announcement, the mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaraigosa, went public with his absolute bewilderment concerning the alleged plot.

“I’m amazed that the president would make this (announcement) on national TV and not inform us of these details through the appropriate channels,” the mayor said in an interview with The Associated Press. “I don’t expect a call from the president — but somebody.”

The day after the announcement, twenty three separate intelligence experts, all with either CIA, FBI, NSA or military credentials, both in and out of service, angrily disputed Bush’s remarks about the alleged L.A. plot, with one going as far as saying that the President was “full of shit.”

Another described the claims as “worthless intel that was discarded long ago.”

A New York Times story cited “several counter-terrorism officials” as saying that “the plot never progressed past the planning stages…. ‘To take that and make it into a disrupted plot is just ludicrous,’ said one senior FBI official.”

The New York Daily News cited another senior counterterrorism official who said: “There was no definitive plot. It never materialized or got past the thought stage.”

The Washington Post also dismissed the alleged plot as nothing more than talk, noting that no actual attack plan had been thwarted.

The LA attack plot arose from the same discredited informant who said that Washington and New York financial institutions were being targeted, which led the White House to raise the terror alert right as the 2004 election campaign was beginning.

“The President has cheapened the entire intelligence community by dragging us into his fantasy world,” said a veteran field operative of the Central Intelligence Agency. “He is basing this absurd claim on the same discredited informant who told us Al Qaeda would attack selected financial institutions in New York and Washington.”

In June 2004 John Pistole, the FBI’s counterterrorism director, said he was “not sure what [the CIA] was referring to,” after a CIA counterterrorism official who testified under the alias “Ted Davis” said that the US had prevented aviation attacks against the east and west coast.

Despite the alleged plot being thoroughly debunked a year prior, President Bush again cited it in his January 2007 State of the Union speech.

Now the CIA has recycled the same hoax in order to try and deflect accusations about its involvement in the torture program.

Indeed, by announcing that the torture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed led to his “confession” of being behind the non-existent L.A. attack plot, the CIA is only reaffirming the fact that the torture program was designed to elicit false confessions that could then be used as terror propaganda on the fearful and gullible American public.

As Senator Levin highlighted on the back of the release of the Department of Justice Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) opinions, the techniques (known as SERE) authorized by officials to be used on detainees, “Are based on tactics used by Chinese Communists against American soldiers during the Korean War for the purpose of eliciting false confessions for propaganda purposes.”

In addition, the senior Army SERE psychologist warned in 2002 against using SERE training techniques during interrogations in an email to personnel at Guantanamo Bay, because, “It usually decreases the reliability of the information because the person will say whatever he believes will stop the pain… Bottom line: the likelihood that the use of physical pressures will increase the delivery of accurate information from a detainee is very low.”

Little wonder then that KSM confessed to everything under the sun, and only stopped short of admitting to being the real Santa Claus, assassinating JFK and creating AIDS. He even “confessed” to plotting to attack a bank that wasn’t even founded until after his arrest.

The idea that waterboarding KSM six times a day for a month, as well as torturing his children, would lead to anything other than false confessions is absurd on the face of it.

However, by regurgitating the confirmed hoax that KSM “confessed” to a plot that never even existed because of the “success” of waterboarding, the CIA has once again highlighted the fact that not only was the torture program an insult and a disgrace to everything America is supposed to stand for, but that it was also a complete waste of time and only put Americans in more danger because false confessions were taken as gospel so that they could be used not to protect the country from terrorists, but to propagandize to the American people and enlist their support for the thoroughly deceptive and insidious “war on terror”.




What's far more insidious is the torture of children. Torturing children to get people to talk is barbaric. But for torturers beyond the law, being given special permission to do as they please must be a hellish wet dream.

Here's what the department of justice had to say about it.

Quote:

Newly Released DOJ Memos Support Account of Torture of KSM’s Children using Insects
Filed under: Torture and Abuse — kevinfenton @ 2:50 am

A set of memos recently released by the Obama administration provide some support for allegations that the children of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM) were tortured to reveal their father’s whereabouts. A detainee’s relative said that they had been tortured with insects in 2007, and the newly released memos approve the use of insects as a part of the CIA’s enhanced interrogation techniques.

KSM’s two children were arrested in Pakistan on September 11, 2002, during a raid on an al-Qaeda safe house. However, their father slipped the net and was not captured until early the next year, reportedly on March 1, 2003.

Allegations

The first indications the children may have been tortured were reported in Ron Suskind’s 2006 book The One Percent Doctrine. When KSM was being held at a secret CIA facility in Thailand, apparently the revamped Vietnam War-era base at Udorn, according to Suskind, a message was passed to interrogators: “do whatever’s necessary.”

The interrogators then told KSM “his children would be hurt if he didn’t cooperate.” However, his response was, “so, fine, they’ll join Allah in a better place.”

More detailed allegations were made at a combatant status review tribunal in Guantanamo in the spring of 2007. According to a statement made by Ali Khan, the father of high value detainee Majid Khan, KSM’s children were “denied food and water by … guards.” In addition, “They were mentally tortured by having ants or other creatures put on their legs to scare them and get them to say where their father was hiding.” Accounts of the children’s ages at this time vary, although they are generally said to have been under ten.

Ali Khan said that he was told about the children by his son Mohammed, who was kept in the same detention center and obtained the information from Pakistani guards there. He also claimed that his son Majid was tortured, for example using stress positions, face slaps, hooding and cramped confinement.

Memos

The recently released memos expressly approve the use of insects in an attempt to scare a detainee into talking. For example, a memo by Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee dated August 1, 2002—a few weeks before KSM’s children were captured—approved the use of “insects placed in a confinement box.” However, this memo only deals with the interrogation of training camp facilitator Abu Zubaida.

The memo sets out more detailed rules for the use of the insects. For example, if interrogators place harmless insects in the cell and tell Abu Zubaida they are actually stinging insects, then they are legally bound to tell him “the insects will not have a sting that would produce death or severe pain.”

According to an endnote to another of the memos, drafted by Steven Bradbury of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel in May 2005, the technique was never used. “We understand that — for reasons unrelated to any concerns that it might violate the statute — the CIA never used the technique and has removed it from the list of authorized interrogation techniques,” Bradbury wrote.

However, the allegations by Ali and Mohammed Khan call Bradbury’s statement into question.

Possible Link

The use of insects, whether proposed or actual, as a part of the CIA torture program was not well known before the memos’ release. In fact, according to Time magazine today, “The CIA desire to use insects during interrogations has not previously been disclosed, according to two civil liberties experts.”

The link between the August 2002 memo authorising insects and the Khans’ allegations of insect use later that same year or early the next year is troubling. Did the Khans invent the allegations or garble them in some way and then “get lucky” two years later, when it was revealed the CIA was, at least, contemplating the techniques they alleged it used at the time in question? Given that nobody heard of the CIA using insects for another two years, why would they invent these specific allegations, which sounded bizarre when they were made?

The alternative is that the Khans are right and insects were used against KSM’s children. The CIA has never given an account of their detention and interrogation. If they were interrogated, it is unclear what guidelines would have been used. Their whereabouts are currently unknown.




Again, one has to question the purpose of torturing children. What does the previous US president say about it?

Quote:

Bush aware of 'unreliability' of torture info

A US military agency warned the Bush administration about the 'unreliability' of information obtained through torture, according to a report.

In July 2002, the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency notified the former administration that torture yields 'unreliable information,' just weeks before the Justice Department authorized use of harsh interrogation techniques, The Washington Post reported.

"The unintended consequence of a US policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured US personnel," the paper quoted from a document attached to a JPRA memorandum.

The Washington Post said segments of the attachment that it had obtained in full were also included in a Senate report on harsh interrogation, which was released this week.

The attachment is the first document that clearly proves that technical advisers had voiced early concerns to the administration of former US president George W. Bush about the infectiveness of imposing severe physical or psychological pressure.

According to The Post, both the CIA's acting general counsel, John Rizzo, and US Justice Department had received a copy of the report from the Pentagon.

However on August 1, 2002, the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel authorized the use of the 10 methods against prisoner Abu Zubaidah regardless of the report.

Since the establishment of the Guantanamo Bay prison many horrific pictures have leaked out to the press, showing the abuse of terror suspects, most of whom have been denied a trial.

These gruesome images have put the US government, which describes itself as a leading proponent of human rights, under pressure from rights groups and international organizations.

So far, around a hundred Guantanamo detainees, including children, have been released from the prison after suffering months of torture.

A great number of those released were falsely arrested in poor countries like Afghanistan, where some are said to be prepared to give incorrect information to US soldiers in return for a reward or punish their personal enemies by implicating them in an attack.

MJ/DT




The last part doesn't surprise me. Start offering money to get people taken away? What a boon for the warlords in Afghanistan and anywhere else this offer is open.

Last week I was reading in another forum about torture being only good for false information. Here's something that struck me, because I remember a newspeak term of "pain compliance" being bandied about.

Quote:

Let's take for example a serial killer and a child molester. Let's say the serial killer brutally murdered 10 people, dismembered their bodies, and fed then to his pet dogs and put the rest in a bag and throws it in the river. You can't tell me he deserves life in prison he needs to die for his crimes. He deserves whatver brutality he gets. Same with the child molester. You can't cure those sickos, u have to think of the safety Of our children. Put those sickos to death. When u commit a brutal crime u forfeit your rights and liberties. U have to be punished for ur crimes.


I see you have been brainwashed well. You fail to see the bigger picture. First they start torturing the really hardcore criminals, the serial killers and child molesters, as you mentioned to see how the general public reacts. Once they get the public conditioned that torture of these monsters is acceptable, then they move on to torturing bank robbers, muggers, drug addicts and so on until it's down to torturing the average person for an unpaid speeding ticket or jaywalking. This is all for getting us to accept torture as a part of everyday life. Obviously the conditioning has worked in your case.

WAKE UP!




Pain compliance:

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2005/04/19/31352.php
Quote:

4/18: Approximately 20 participants in the Tent University protest and teach-in at UCSC were arrested this evening by university police. Information on the arrests has not yet been released by UCSC police or the Santa Cruz Sheriff, but according to reports on Santa Cruz Indymedia, arrestees were dragged and clubbed by police and subjected to pain compliance and chokeholds. With a large crowd gathered and an increasing presence of cameras documenting the police brutality, university authorities eventually made a concessionary deal with organizers allowing a small number of participants to camp on the field, according to reports on Free Radio Santa Cruz. The arrestees were transported to the Santa Cruz county jail, where a large crowd was gathered in support as of 1:30 a.m. 4/19.




http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=3888156n
Crowd microwave cannon

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2008/032508_torture_bracelet.htm
torture braclet

Quote:

Torture Bracelet To Control Dissenting Americans?
Homeland Security, weapons company express desire to use "Security Bracelet" in law enforcement, crowd control



The Department of Homeland Security is pursuing the introduction of a device known as the Security Bracelet, a wearable tag that would allow authorities to inflict pain compliance on suspects from a distance, while also recommending law enforcement applications and potential use in "crowd control situations".

Introduced ostensibly to combat airline terrorism, a creepy promo video courtesy of the patent holders Lamperd FTS exploits shocking 9/11 imagery to push the torture device as a solution to countering potential hijackers by inflicting "Electro-Muscular Disruption" and presumably giving the rest of the passengers a debilitating shock at the same time.

"Upon activation of the electric shock device, through receipt of an activating signal from the selectively operable remote control means, the passenger wearing that particular bracelet receives the disabling electrical shock from the electric shock device. Accordingly, the passenger becomes incapacitated for a few seconds or perhaps a few minutes, during which time the passenger can be fully subdued and handcuffed, if necessary. Depending on the type of transmission medium used to send the activating signal, other passengers may also become temporarily incapacitated, which is undesirable and unfortunate, but may be unavoidable," reads the patent for the device.

The claim that such a shock would "not cause permanent injury" is an insult to the hundreds of Taser victims who have lost their lives to so-called "non-lethal weapons" - devices whose abuse by authorities has led groups like Amnesty International to condemn them as an affront to basic human rights.

Why the terrorists wouldn't just remove the bracelet as soon as they boarded the plane isn't explained, but the perceived fallibility of the device isn't the issue - the heart of the matter is the fact that the Department of Homeland Security has publicly expressed an interest and is seeking funding to utilize the device against the "criminal element".

Letters exchanged between the company and DHS official Paul S. Ruwaldt show Homeland Security's intention to utilize the device for border control and, "indeed for anywhere else for which the temporarily restraint of large numbers of individuals in open area environments by a small number of agents or Law Enforcement Officers".

The letters confirm that funding is being sought for the widespread deployment of the device and that several state and local authorities have expressed an interest, as well as the DOD, the CDC, Department of Interior, Department of Agriculture Forestry service as well as unnamed law enforcement agencies.

In addition, according to the biography of Barry Lamperd, the owner of the company behind the device, carried on his own website, "His current focus is on products related to the use of less lethal weapons in crowd control situations".

Since revelations about warrantless secret surveillance of all U.S. citizens as well as millions of innocent Americans being included on the terror watch list have come to light, the new legal precedent of guilty until proven innocent has all but been established in the "land of the free".

So why not force protesters who insist on expressing what they claim is "freedom of speech" to wear the Security Bracelet? If they step outside of their free speech zone - zap them! How about making everyone who attends a Presidential inauguration or speech wear the bracelet in the interests of national security?

Since "crowd control situations" can easily be interchanged with "unauthorized demonstrations," why not force dissenters and undesirables to wear the bracelet so as to prevent civil unrest in times of national emergency?

Why not go the whole hog and just tag babies from birth in order to combat violent crime and robbery? If a crime is in progress, the police could just activate the shock from a safe distance and save lives.

The cost of enforcing any of these measures would of course be the complete and unmitigated death of any notion of liberty and freedom, but such concepts don't seem to concern advocates of the device.

Judging by comments left by You Tube viewers, most people are not going to "happily opt" to submit to the measures, as the promotional video claims, with respondents agreeing in unison that the device itself is "a lot scarier than terrorists".

"I'd rather be killed by terrorists then spend my life tracked and controlled by government "benefactors". Freedom always carries with it some risk of things going wrong.Who trusts the government enough to allow them to track citizens? If they start implementing this kind of technology, I just won't fly," writes one.

"What better way to assist terrorists (be they called "terrorists" or "police") to use you as tools at will than to do this? If "they" can subdue a few terrorists, than "they" can just as easily subdue the entire plane and use it as they see fit. Terrorists are scary? Please. Police (by all their names: KGB, SS, CIA, FBI) have killed far, far more people than any "terrorist" ever dreamed. So, lets give THEM more power, eh?" cautions another.

"Only the worst coward would subject himself to the indignity of such a device in the name of "security." Some things are more important than security, and one of those things is freedom. Free people do not allow themselves to be treated as criminals, guilty until proven innocent," writes another.

The way in which the promo invokes horrific images of 9/11 to sell the product also leaves viewers revolted.

"Fearmongering to sell a product. No thanks. But lets get them to keep demonstrating how the shocking someone part works on their own employees!" writes one respondent.





http://www.fox11az.com/news/topstories/stories/kmsb-20061122-apjc-tazersucla.13f3238c.html
UCLA officers allowed to use Tasers for "pain compliance"

And finally, a baptist pastor beaten by police, for refusing to let border patrol search his car without a warrant



Torturing foreigners is to desensitise you to torture, so when the police come to beat you for looking at them funny, it'll just seem common place.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10232423 - 04/25/09 05:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There doesn't seem to be much doubt about the people who were enhanced.  If you can think of one I'd appreciate the example.






a)  Who all got the enhanced treatment?  A source is fine




As far as I know, just a select few.  And every single one was a particularly charming individual.  If you have any information that  a tiny little grenade throwing Canadian child was "enhanced" I'd be interested in hearing about it. 
Quote:



b)  I'm confused.  Are you arguing to defend the past practices or to establish that the power is a good one?


  I think I would be thumbs up on both.
Quote:




Cuz I thought the debate was more generally over whether we should continue using these practices, which is only somewhat informed by the past cases.  If these practices are good against people who are attacking america then why don't we limit their application to such?  Do you support that?  If not your claims aren't really to the point your trying to establish: what power should they have and why should they have it?




The world is flat.  Get out of bed.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10232440 - 04/25/09 05:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Alan may not have noticed that the people being harshly interrogated were already devoted to attacking the US.




Oops


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10232480 - 04/25/09 06:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Alan may not have noticed that the people being harshly interrogated were already devoted to attacking the US.





No matter how devoted you are to attacking the USA, its always possible to become more devoted.



Whatever.  Religious fanatics tend to be rather robust in their fanaticism
Quote:




When deciding who to pick up, its extremely easy to get the wrong guy when you don't speak the language or understand the culture.  Surely we have tortured innocent people too.


I think I'll pick up the guy with the grenade who killed my pal every time
Quote:

 

Torturing guilty people is really bad as well - When they find a way to communicate to the outside world they will tell their friends all sorts of true stories about US torture and then they really will have a reason to come over here and blow shit up.




I don't think we torture at ll.  I also don't think that we aggressively interrogate every single jerkoff we capture.  Just a select few who have info.
Quote:



I don't really think terrorism is such a bad problem that we need to torture people to try to stop it.



You probably live in Idaho.  I have a different perspective.
Quote:



Even if torture not counterproductive, consider this:

Deaths in the USA every year from non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs such as Aspirin: 7,600
Deaths in the USA from Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity: 365,000
Terrorism deaths, worldwide:  5000 (2001), usually is around 2000
Auto accidents: 46,000 per year in the US

According to this paper, auto accidents cause 390 times more deaths than terrorism.

Given the small magnitude of the terrorism problem compared to the other death risks we face every day, it doesn't make sense to torture people to attempt to prevent a very small number of deaths.




BAN CARS.  Given the tiny amount of human suffering added to the mix why don't we torture everybody?  How many tortured Islamists equal one single dead firefighter who ran into the towers to save people?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10232523 - 04/25/09 06:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You probably live in Idaho.  I have a different perspective.
Quote:







So you base all of your moral decisions on your own cowardice?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10232533 - 04/25/09 06:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Cowardice?  Go live in your bunker, I walk the target streets every day.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10232543 - 04/25/09 06:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Pretty sure terrorists don't care about bumfuck kentucky or where ever you learned your twisted world views


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10232567 - 04/25/09 06:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As much as I was entertained by my sojourn in bumfuck Kenucky currently live within sniffing distance of Ground Zero.  Call it Target America.
Quote:

How many tortured Islamists equal one single dead firefighter who ran into the towers to save people?




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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10232782 - 04/25/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Cowardice?  Go live in your bunker, I walk the target streets every day.




...And scream for your country to act like barbarians.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10234576 - 04/26/09 01:39 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Whatever.  Religious fanatics tend to be rather robust in their fanaticism




No matter how much you hate something, its always possible to hate it more.

Torture is a great way to add some extreme hatred to religious fanaticism.  That sounds like a recipe for some damn ambitious terrorists.  Are you trying to get us bombed again, or would that be an unintended side effect?

Quote:

I think I'll pick up the guy with the grenade who killed my pal every time




Yea we'll pick him up every time no problem.  But what about the guy with an ak-47 that just uses it to protect his family?  He could easily be a suspect if he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Quote:

I don't think we torture at ll.




Do you mind if I come over and test out some of these interrogation tactics on you?  How do you feel about insects?  Rats?  Drowning?  All three at once?  Every day, several times a day?  This could be a fun vacation for me.

Quote:

BAN CARS.




Poor diet / lack of physical activity kills 365,000 people a year in the US vs 2000 a year worldwide for terrorism.  If you are trying to keep us safe your priorities are way out of whack.

Quote:

How many tortured Islamists equal one single dead firefighter who ran into the towers to save people?




Every tortured islamist has the potential to kill hundreds of firefighters.  Any old garden variety dumbass could pull off attacks much more deadly than 9/11.  Terrorism is extremely easy to do, also very easy to get away with.  The only reason we don't have terrorist attacks in the US very often at all is that people lack the incentive to do it.  Giving people a REAL reason to kill us is extremely counterproductive.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10234938 - 04/26/09 04:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said: How many tortured Islamists equal one single dead firefighter who ran into the towers to save people?






Wait, so is this revenge or punishment rather than an interrogation method now?


I thought you said it wasn't punishment and therefore not covered under your interpretation of the 8th amendment?


If we are punishing people it should be after a fair trial.


Regardless, untill you show the connection, its pointless rhetoric intentionally appealing to emotion.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There doesn't seem to be much doubt about the people who were enhanced.  If you can think of one I'd appreciate the example.






a)  Who all got the enhanced treatment?  A source is fine




As far as I know, just a select few.  And every single one was a particularly charming individual.  If you have any information that  a tiny little grenade throwing Canadian child was "enhanced" I'd be interested in hearing about it. 
Quote:



b)  I'm confused.  Are you arguing to defend the past practices or to establish that the power is a good one?


  I think I would be thumbs up on both.
Quote:




Cuz I thought the debate was more generally over whether we should continue using these practices, which is only somewhat informed by the past cases.  If these practices are good against people who are attacking america then why don't we limit their application to such?  Do you support that?  If not your claims aren't really to the point your trying to establish: what power should they have and why should they have it?




The world is flat.  Get out of bed.





"as far as I know..."  So you don't know, do you?  Your defending something's propreity as applied when you have no idea what that application was.  Just like the other things you are sure of, you only know what the government has told you and I am not aware that they've ever even claimed a specific group (edit: by this I mean they haven't indicated who all they've enhanced or even a representative cross section- presuming the later could be believed)  who they've subjected to the enhanced treatment, let alone why.  As a result, your claims that they are enhancing "america haters" and all this other rhetoric is entirelly unsupported.  I can understand you claiming this shouldn't be a forbiden instrument in all cases, but to claim the things you've claimed, that they are only used against people attacking america, is just dishonest.

The canadian child was subjected to moves every three hours so that he couldn't sleep for extended periods of time.  Do you agree with this?  Do you know whether his actions in throwing the grenade were wrong?  I don't, I have no idea, but I can imagine quite plausible situations in which it would be ok.  I don't know if they've released his transcripts or not.



I like how you refuse to even clarify why you keep appealing to the few fcases the administration wanted to share with us the details of and then when your questioned on what relevance this could have to the power being a good one to have or to substantiate claims it is used wisely, you just ignore the question.


What exactly are you claiming and why?  Do you have any evidence to support your claims?

Edited by johnm214 (04/26/09 07:45 AM)

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10235182 - 04/26/09 07:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As far as I know, just a select few.  And every single one was a particularly charming individual.  If you have any information that  a tiny little grenade throwing Canadian child was "enhanced" I'd be interested in hearing about it. 
Quote:



If a child was what?  Why don't you just say "tortured"?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10235841 - 04/26/09 11:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As much as I was entertained by my sojourn in bumfuck Kenucky currently live within sniffing distance of Ground Zero.  Call it Target America.
Quote:

How many tortured Islamists equal one single dead firefighter who ran into the towers to save people?







Relax. It's not like Larry Silverstein is going to pull another insurance fraud. Is he?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10236193 - 04/26/09 12:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Not that stupid shit again. 

So, children, has the poor little Canadian tyke been subjected to, in your tortured minds, any enhanced interrogation or not?  John, this is your job, or are you just content to fantasize that he was?  Your manufactured outrage is very quaint.  Does it come with a made in Canada label?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10236483 - 04/26/09 01:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not that stupid shit again. 

So, children, has the poor little Canadian tyke been subjected to, in your tortured minds, any enhanced interrogation or not?  John, this is your job, or are you just content to fantasize that he was?  Your manufactured outrage is very quaint.  Does it come with a made in Canada label?





Enhanced what?

Did you mean "torture"?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10236518 - 04/26/09 01:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not that stupid shit again. 

So, children, has the poor little Canadian tyke been subjected to, in your tortured minds, any enhanced interrogation or not?  John, this is your job, or are you just content to fantasize that he was?  Your manufactured outrage is very quaint.  Does it come with a made in Canada label?





I allready said it seemed like he was moved at least every three hours for long period of time on end.


That's not torture in the common usage of the word, but I'd likely disagree with the treatment.


I'm not that knowledgable on the case though or the issues, so I really have not much of an opinion on it except to say I find the people who conclude he must be a war criminal because he threw a grenade at soldiers, allegedly, to be daft.  I don't know the situation though, so who knows.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10236583 - 04/26/09 01:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Who said he was a war criminal?  Keep moving them goalposts.  He is an unlawful combatant captured during the prosecution of a war that is still ongoing.  He can continue to enjoy his vacation at Camp Gitmo.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10236654 - 04/26/09 01:47 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

?  That's what's alleged, I don't think specifically but he commited murder per the US's facts.  I misspoke but there's no difference in this case anyways between the two.



Demonstrate he's an unlawful combatent.  How would you know?  I sure don't. They don't even attempt to determine that in the proceedings that I can tell, relevant to the geneva convention, and I doubt, though don't know, that the government has given him a chance to show evidence he's not.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10236679 - 04/26/09 01:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Holy fucking shit do you think people captured in wars should have hearings and trials?  Miranda rights?  Because no rational person I know does.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10236734 - 04/26/09 02:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

We've been over your insistance that I accept miranda rights for some time now and my answer is the same as it always was: no, and none of the miranda rights exist for those folks anyways so being apprised of them is worthless to boot.



And yeah, the geneva convention requires trials for people who may be POW's and I think everyone should get a trial as to whether or not they are a POW or other protected class and whether or not they are an illegal combatent or not.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10236745 - 04/26/09 02:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
We've been over your insistance that I accept miranda rights for some time now and my answer is the same as it always was: no, and none of the miranda rights exist for those folks anyways so being apprised of them is worthless to boot.



And yeah, the geneva convention requires trials for people who may be POW's and I think everyone should get a trial as to whether or not they are a POW or other protected class and whether or not they are an illegal combatent or not.



It does?  Did we ratify that?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10237721 - 04/26/09 05:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Who said he was a war criminal?  Keep moving them goalposts.  He is an unlawful combatant captured during the prosecution of a war that is still ongoing.  He can continue to enjoy his vacation at Camp Gitmo.





Wait.  So, being an unlawful combatant isn't a criminal act?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10237735 - 04/26/09 05:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Holy fucking shit do you think people captured in wars should have hearings and trials?  Miranda rights?  Because no rational person I know does.





Well, they're not POWs, which means they're criminals, right?

Or is it your position that allegedly throwing a grenade at a soldier when you are not yourself part of a article 4 military unit is not a crime?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10238013 - 04/26/09 05:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Apparently it means he's a (wait for it) unlawful combatant.  Woohoo.  Which is not exactly the same as a war criminal or a POW or a red breasted nightingale.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10238166 - 04/26/09 06:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Apparently it means he's a (wait for it) unlawful combatant.  Woohoo.  Which is not exactly the same as a war criminal or a POW or a red breasted nightingale.





I didn't say "war criminal", I said "criminal".

Are they, or are they not, in detainment for unlawful acts?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10238201 - 04/26/09 06:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Apparently it means he's a (wait for it) unlawful combatant.  Woohoo.  Which is not exactly the same as a war criminal or a POW or a red breasted nightingale.





I can make up classifications that exist outside of the law too. American soldiers are actually proto-soldiers, which put them outside of the reach of any treaty. Also they're bullet proof.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10238207 - 04/26/09 06:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Apparently it means he's a (wait for it) unlawful combatant.  Woohoo.  Which is not exactly the same as a war criminal or a POW or a red breasted nightingale.



...and if we agree with that, that can only mean the approved course of actions is (wait for it) TORTURE!  I lov dis country!  Bwahaha!


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10238655 - 04/26/09 07:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Apparently it means he's a (wait for it) unlawful combatant.  Woohoo.  Which is not exactly the same as a war criminal or a POW or a red breasted nightingale.





I didn't say "war criminal", I said "criminal".

Are they, or are they not, in detainment for unlawful acts?



John said war criminal.  Let's slow this down for you.  Unlawful combatant.  Not my terminology.  Call your lawyer.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10238661 - 04/26/09 07:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Apparently it means he's a (wait for it) unlawful combatant.  Woohoo.  Which is not exactly the same as a war criminal or a POW or a red breasted nightingale.





I can make up classifications that exist outside of the law too. American soldiers are actually proto-soldiers, which put them outside of the reach of any treaty. Also they're bullet proof.



Whatever you say, unicorn hunter.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10238674 - 04/26/09 07:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Apparently it means he's a (wait for it) unlawful combatant.  Woohoo.  Which is not exactly the same as a war criminal or a POW or a red breasted nightingale.



...and if we agree with that, that can only mean the approved course of actions is (wait for it) TORTURE!  I lov dis country!  Bwahaha!




No you don't.  Was this jackass subjected to enhanced interrogation or not?  Or, as is your wont, are you blowing ass exhaust?


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10238750 - 04/26/09 07:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

No you don't.  Was this jackass subjected to enhanced interrogation or not?  Or, as is your wont, are you blowing ass exhaust?




1.  What's to love?  China tortures people, too.  Do you love China?

2.  Say it, Zap..."TORTURE".


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10238902 - 04/26/09 08:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

America doesn't torture.  But since you seem to think we're the same as China why don't we just send the Uighurs back home?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10238908 - 04/26/09 08:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
America doesn't torture.




No, we just tie people up and beat them to death.

That's totally different.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10254498 - 04/29/09 07:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, gee. The New York Times managed to hysterically exaggerate things once again. I am just so surprised you could knock me over with a feather. For those of you who will automatically dismiss the facts (and yes, folks, they are facts) described in this report merely because the story was broken by Fox News, remember two things:

- Fox News may have been the first to report the corrections, but they won't be the only ones.

- There is enough detail in the reports to corroborate its accuracy through second sources - i.e. that hotbed of neocon activism, the Red Cross.

Quote:

Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

The number of times Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded was the focus of major media attention  -- and highly misleading.

By Joseph Abrams

The New York Times reported last week that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators. The "183 times" was widely circulated by news outlets throughout the world.

It was shocking. And it was highly misleading. The number is a vast inflation, according to information from a U.S. official and the testimony of the terrorists themselves.

A U.S. official with knowledge of the interrogation program told FOX News that the much-cited figure represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on the terror suspect.  According to a 2007 Red Cross report, he was subjected a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment." 

"The water was poured 183 times -- there were 183 pours," the official explained, adding that "each pour was a matter of seconds."

The Times and dozens of other outlets wrote that the CIA also waterboarded senior Al Qaeda member Abu Zubaydah 83 times, but Zubayda himself, a close associate of Usama bin Laden, told the Red Cross he was waterboarded no more than 10 times.

The confusion stems from language in the Justice Department legal memos that President Obama released on April 16. They contain the numbers, but they fail to explain exactly what they represent.

The memos, spanning from 2002-2005, were a legal review by the Bush administration that approved the use of waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques." Obama banned the procedure on his second day in office, saying that waterboarding is torture.

Click here to see Memo 1 | Memo 2 | Memo 3 | Memo 4

The memos describe the controversial process: a detainee is strapped to a gurney with his head lowered and a cloth placed on his face. Interrogators pour water onto the cloth, which cuts off air flow to the mouth and nostrils, tripping his gag reflex, causing panic and giving him the sensation that he is drowning.

At that point the cloth would be removed, the gurney rotated upright and the detainee would be allowed to breathe. The technique could be repeated a few times during a waterboarding session; Zubaydah said it was generally used once or twice, but he said he was waterboarded three times during one session.

The Justice Department memos described the maximum allowed use of the waterboard on any detainee, based on tactical training given to U.S. troops to resist interrogations:

-- Five days of use in one month, with no more than two "sessions" in a day;
-- Up to six applications (something like a dunk) lasting more than 10 seconds but less than 40 seconds per session;
-- 12 minutes of total "water application" in a 24-hour period

Bloggers who read the memos last week noted that the CIA's math "doesn't add up" -- meaning that the 12 long pours allowed in a day couldn't add up to the 12 minutes mentioned in the memo, and they could barely even guess how the detainees could have been waterboarded an astounding 286 times in one month.

The memos did not note that the sessions would be made up of a number of short pours -- the ones the U.S. official said lasted "a matter of seconds" -- and that created the huge numbers quoted by the New York Times: 183 on Mohamed, 83 on Zubaydah.

Pours, not waterboards.

A close look at a Red Cross report on the interrogations makes the numbers even clearer.

As the Red Cross noted: "The suffocation procedure was applied [to Abu Zubaydah] during five sessions of ill-treatment ... in 2002. During each session, apart from one, the suffocation technique was applied once or twice; on one occasion it was applied three times."

The total number of applications: between eight and 10 -- not the 83 mentioned in the Times.

Mohammed similarly told the Red Cross that "I was also subjected to 'water-boarding' on five occasions, all of which occurred during the first month." Those were his five "sessions"; the precise number of applications is not known but is a fraction of the 183 figure.

All of those individual pours were scrupulously counted by the CIA, according to the memos, to abide by the procedures set up for the waterboardings.

"It is important that every application of the waterboard be thoroughly documented: how long each application (and the entire procedure) lasted, how much water was used in the process," read a memo from May 10, 2005.

Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the only other detainee known to be waterboarded, was not discussed in the memos.

The Times wrote that until the release of the memos, "the precise number" of 286 total waterboardings was not known.

And the precise number of waterboarding sessions is still not known. What is known is that Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times.




I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought the numbers - 183 times!?! - sounded fishy. It just made no sense at all to me, but I wasn't going to go out on a limb and challenge those numbers without some kind of backup. Fortunately, it seems the numbers sounded fishy to at least one reporter, too. Props to him for following up on it.





Phred


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Phred]
    #10255152 - 04/29/09 11:03 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was suspicious as well.  Waterboarding works according to some on these boards, yet they never found Osama Bin Laden.  This explains it.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10261014 - 04/30/09 07:20 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Apparently it means he's a (wait for it) unlawful combatant.  Woohoo.  Which is not exactly the same as a war criminal or a POW or a red breasted nightingale.



...and if we agree with that, that can only mean the approved course of actions is (wait for it) TORTURE!  I lov dis country!  Bwahaha!




No you don't.  Was this jackass subjected to enhanced interrogation or not?  Or, as is your wont, are you blowing ass exhaust?




Maybe some "enhanced interrogation" would get you to say what you mean, instead of trying to weasel out of answer any question directed to you.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10262864 - 04/30/09 02:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:



Maybe some "enhanced interrogation" would get you to say what you mean, instead of trying to weasel out of answer any question directed to you.



What question?  I went back through page 7 and didn't see any question from you.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10263659 - 04/30/09 04:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It's okay guys, you can call it torture now.

"Enhanced Interrogation" shenanigans can cease immediately.

Quote:

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-04-30-voa47.cfm

Obama Says Waterboarding is Torture

"What I have said, and I will repeat, is that waterboarding violates our ideals and our values," Mr. Obama said. "I do believe that it is torture. I do not think that is just my opinion; that is the opinion of many who have examined the topic. And that is why I put an end to these practices." 




:thumbup:


--------------------
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10263837 - 04/30/09 04:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10262818#10262818

I will not have that faggoty pussy defining what American values are.  He is no more qualified to do that than I am.  In fact, the product of Affirmative Action is less qualified than I am to speak on American values of self-reliance and rugged individualism.  His values are the values of the protected and not the values of the protectors.  He is a sheep, not a sheepdog, and the wolves are getting the upper hand because of it.

   
Quote:


    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
        George Orwell,





http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/33960.html


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10265699 - 04/30/09 09:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I will not have that faggoty pussy defining what American values are.




You can't do anything about it.

Also, isn't it a bit unpatriotic to disagree with the president in wartime?  We heard something about that from 2001-2008, IIRC.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Phred]
    #10267176 - 05/01/09 04:47 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:"The water was poured 183 times -- there were 183 pours," the official explained, adding that "each pour was a matter of seconds."




Do you have any idea how long a couple of seconds is while being waterboarded? It sounds benign, but waterboarding can cause severe, lasting mental trauma, and even death. Christopher Hitchens allowed himself to be waterboarded in defense of the technique (can be seen here). He completely changed his mind, and even talks about having nightmares afterwards. A Playboy Journalist bet some money that he could last 15 seconds. He only lasted 5 (you can see it here, fast forward to 2:45).

But all of this talk about number of times is irrelevant. We're still talking about torture. The real outrage isn't that the number is apparently misleading, it's that ANYONE could defend the practice by saying the media exaggerated the number of times.

It's disgusting that anyone is defending torture. It says something about what kind of human being you are (and this goes to anyone defending torture) when inflicting torture on others is perfectly acceptable to you.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Twirling]
    #10267205 - 05/01/09 05:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

But all of this talk about number of times is irrelevant.




Sure it is. Suuuuuuuure it is. If the numbers had been reported the other way around, all the bleeding heart loonies would be having conniption fits. "OHMIGOD! Those poor terrorist masterminds weren't waterboarded just half a dozen times to extract and confirm information of upcoming terrorist operations, they were waterboarded hundreds of times! The press was lying to us about the numbers in order to hide the government's evil sadistic ways!"

Of course the numbers are relevant.





Phred


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Twirling]
    #10267341 - 05/01/09 06:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Twirling said:
Do you have any idea how long a couple of seconds is while being waterboarded?




Yes. Exactly as long as a couple of seconds when you're not being waterboarded.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10267554 - 05/01/09 08:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Merriam-Webster dictionary:


tor·ture
Pronunciation:
    \ˈtȯr-chər\
Function:
    noun
Etymology:
    Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
Date:1540

a: anguish of body or mind

b: something that causes agony or pain




if waterboarding is not torture, how do you define torture?  if it does not fit your definition of torture, would you allow yourself to be subjected to such a technique for objective purposes?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Phred]
    #10267989 - 05/01/09 10:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

But all of this talk about number of times is irrelevant.




Sure it is. Suuuuuuuure it is. If the numbers had been reported the other way around, all the bleeding heart loonies would be having conniption fits.

Of course the numbers are relevant.



I agree everyone wants an accurate number, but the number is irrelevant to whether or not waterboarding is acceptable in a civilized society.  It either is, or it's not.  Fortunately, the US joined the rest of the civilized world and believes this is unacceptable behavior.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10268150 - 05/01/09 11:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Fortunately, the US joined the rest of the civilized world and believes this is unacceptable behavior.




No, Obama believes it. And Obama is most certainly not "the US".



Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10268311 - 05/01/09 11:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I will not have that faggoty pussy defining what American values are.




You can't do anything about it.




Bullshit.  He is not dictator of the language
Quote:



Also, isn't it a bit unpatriotic to disagree with the president in wartime?  We heard something about that from 2001-2008, IIRC.



Not from me.  Besides, aren't we in surrendertime now?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Yrat]
    #10268329 - 05/01/09 11:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Merriam-Webster dictionary:


tor�ture
Pronunciation:
    \ˈtȯr-chər\
Function:
    noun
Etymology:
    Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
Date:1540

a: anguish of body or mind

b: something that causes agony or pain




if waterboarding is not torture, how do you define torture?  if it does not fit your definition of torture, would you allow yourself to be subjected to such a technique for objective purposes?



That's nice.  Too bad it has not one iota's relevance to the legal definition of torture.  Anguish of body or mind.  Well I guess that includes taking a final exam you are unprepared for or a job interview.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10268500 - 05/01/09 12:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Besides, aren't we in surrendertime now?




Yup, we've practically given up in the war on terror.  I don't even hear the president use that term anymore.  That means he is a terrorist.

We have so many terrorists around here that I am starting to use them as seasoning in my breakfast cereal.

Its raining terrorists, I can hardly walk out the door without bumping into one. 

Quote:

That's nice.  Too bad it has not one iota's relevance to the legal definition of torture.  Anguish of body or mind.  Well I guess that includes taking a final exam you are unprepared for or a job interview.




Interesting to see how the legal definition of torture contrasts with the actual definition of torture.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10268523 - 05/01/09 12:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Funny how the law works, isn't it?  How are those tortuous job applications going?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Phred]
    #10269209 - 05/01/09 02:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Obama believes it. And Obama is most certainly not "the US".



Oh, but he is!  You may disagree with him, but what he says about torture is what the US says about torture.  If he puts a stop to it, then it stops.  :muahaha:


--------------------
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10269386 - 05/01/09 02:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:



Maybe some "enhanced interrogation" would get you to say what you mean, instead of trying to weasel out of answer any question directed to you.



What question?  I went back through page 7 and didn't see any question from you.




I didn't question you, but plenty of other people have.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10269407 - 05/01/09 03:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I believe I answered them.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10269456 - 05/01/09 03:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I was suspicious as well.  Waterboarding works according to some on these boards, yet they never found Osama Bin Laden.  This explains it.





they've found osama many times, I'm sure they know his whereabouts today

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Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,355
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #10269641 - 05/01/09 03:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Bin Laden used to post on Mycotopia but he got banned by hippie3 so its hard to say where he is these days.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10269657 - 05/01/09 03:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I do believe that he is currently growing mycelia on his skin.  Dermal gardening.


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OfflineYrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 3 years, 9 days
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10269820 - 05/01/09 04:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

>>Too bad it has not one iota's relevance to the legal definition of torture.

i wonder who gets to write the "legal" definition.  oh... how convenient.


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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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OfflineHappy Days
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Registered: 10/20/13
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #24580683 - 08/26/17 09:01 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Enlil

Reason for deletion: Spam


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
Mycologist
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Happy Days]
    #24582281 - 08/26/17 10:14 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I have heard rumors that I work for the CIA, and they confused me for awhile until I remembered that I set my LinkedIn profile to that employer.  Now I get lots of LinkedIn requests from people who really work for the CIA, though I don't use LinkedIn like most people do, I just post mushroom stuff rather than look for jobs.

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OfflineHappy Days
Truthseeker
Male


Registered: 10/20/13
Posts: 18
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #24585621 - 08/28/17 02:46 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sorry, sir, but now I don't trust you anymore, which makes further dialogue pointless, as it's too hard too restore, CIAo:)

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