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 Madtowntripper
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 Why Not Just Call It Torture? 
#8008357 - 02/11/08 11:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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One of my many gripes with the Fascis...I mean, Republican administration is its never-ending parsing over words. For a group that claims to be proudly anti-Political Correctness to the point of intolerance you would expect them to be remarkably clear about the way they treat their "Suspected Terrorists." I mean, George Bush tells us every day that he doesn't even know which way is up on a poll to say nothing of actually caring about its contents.
So why run from the word torture?
No sane person can consider waterboarding and not think it is torture. The A.G., Mr. Mukasey said that it would torture if used on him. Mccain, a victim of actual torture said waterboarding is torture.
But if you ask George Bush or any of our pet Conservatives here they will tell you its not and add cute little quotations to make it "torture".
Why not call it like it is? Why are you so afraid to admit that you will torture someone to get information?
If public and international opinion be damned, stop being so mealy-mouthed and say what you fucking mean.
Or might not the American people in general and your flock of Evangelical sheep in particular not be so fond of a "Pro-Torture" ticket as they are of a "Pro-Life" one?
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Phred
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Quote:
No sane person can consider waterboarding and not think it is torture. The A.G., Mr. Mukasey said that it would torture if used on him. Mccain, a victim of actual torture said waterboarding is torture.
Neither of these two worthies has ever been waterboarded. Waterboarding -- from the dozens of accounts we have available to us from everyone from antiwar demonstrators to reporters to members of our own elite armed forces -- is not the least bit painful. Therefore, it is by definition not torture.
I realize Libbies have trouble winning arguments when forced to use words the way they are defined, but that's not my problem, nor should it be the problem of Republicans.
Phred
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8008452 - 02/11/08 11:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Where is your definition from?
The Neo-Con Handbook To Winning An Argument By Narrowly Defining A Term?
If we use an actual definition from the UN Convention Against Torture, we read...
Quote:
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.
Do you think drowning, whether real or false, causes mental suffering?
And if you say no, you're a liar.
And since when do you have to undergo a specific torture before you're able to speak intelligently on its painful-ness? I've never been tarred and feathered, but I'm pretty sure it hurts.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Seuss
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8008498 - 02/11/08 11:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, Article 1, defines torture as:
Quote:
For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
So the big question: Does waterboarding inflict severe mental suffering?
I'm torn on the issue. Experiencing waterboarding sucks. Once you lose focus and start to panic, you will do anything, or say anything, to end it. At the same time, we use waterboarding to train our special forces, and members of other areas of the government, on what to expect if captured and tortured. It is difficult to call something torture when many of us have voluntarily experienced it as part of our training.
Edit:
You beat me to the quote...
> Do you think drowning, whether real or false, causes mental suffering?
> And if you say no, you're a liar.
Severe mental suffering. Being imprisoned causes mental suffering. Not knowing if you are ever going to be allowed to go free causes mental suffering. Waterboarding creates a temporary state of panic where a person talks without thinking about what they are saying.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
#8008510 - 02/11/08 11:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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But you are getting that training to prepare you for being tortured.
Is not that not a de facto admission that waterboarding is torture?
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Seuss
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
#8008540 - 02/11/08 12:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> But you are getting that training to prepare you for being tortured. Is not that not a de facto admission that waterboarding is torture?
No, it is not an admission of torture... if anything, it is the opposite; something very close to torture that we can use as a training tool.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
#8008562 - 02/11/08 12:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You can't expect them to pull your fingernails out.
The big difference is the physical versus the mental definitions of torture. Myself and those who think like me are not saying waterboarding is comparable to ripping someone's eye out. You can argue that it is not an intense type of physical torture.
But I don't see how you can claim it is *not* mental torture.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Phred
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Quote:
Where is your definition from?
From the Random House Unabridged Dictionary --
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
And from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language --
1 a Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
1 b An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2 Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: "the torture of waiting in suspense."
3 Something causing severe pain or anguish.
Waterboarding is painful neither physically nor mentally. It does an excellent job of simulating the sensation of drowning, but as one who has twice come within a few inches of drowning in windsurfing incidents (that would be me) I can assure you that drowning is not painful, nor is it anguishing. It's definitely not something I'd like to repeat, but torture? Not even close.
And that was when I was certain I was actually going to die. I mean not just I thought I was going to, but I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt I was a dead man. Prisoners being waterboarded know they aren't going to die -- they know from their training the experience won't be fatal.
Finally, it's a moot point anyway, since the US has only ever done it to three terrorists and has said it won't do it anymore -- hopefully because they have found something even more effective than waterboarding.
Phred
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8008573 - 02/11/08 12:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I see Seuss beat me to it -- waterboarding doesn't induce anguish (either physical or mental) it induces panic. Not the same thing at all.
Phred
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8008584 - 02/11/08 12:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Every one of those definitions you listed mentioned mental anguish.
I applaud you for being so stoic in the face of certain death, but I doubt everyone is so willing to shuffle off the mortal coil. I would not like to drown. To myself as with Mr. Mukasey, being waterboarded would be torture.
Quote:
Phred said:
Finally, it's a moot point anyway, since the US has only ever done it to three terrorists and has said it won't do it anymore -- hopefully because they have found something even more effective than waterboarding.
Phred
I am astounded but not surprised that you believe this figure.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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 johnm214
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Quote:
Phred said:
Waterboarding is most emphatically NOT torture. The process isn't the least bit painful.
This has been testified to by the dozens of demonstrators and media reporters who have subjected themselves to it -- roughly ten times as many terrorists as the CIA actually waterboarded.
Is it unpleasant? Damned straight! Is it a convincing simulation of drowning? You bet! But torture? Not at all.
Now let's return to the topic of the thread -- Obama's claim to have the lead in delegates. If you feel inclined to continue discussing the utility and/or morality of various interrogation techniques, feel free to do so in this thread -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8008357/an/0/page/0
Phred
well I guess your presuming torture to mean roughly the definition of the US that torture must cause physical harm w/ great risk to life, organs, or body parts?
And you also distinguish between psychological and physical pain, something that I'm not sure is possible. Clearly you believe that unpleasantness in waterboarding is a psychological phenomena, and not a physical one, no? In that their is not a somatic source of the discomfort... it is the brains response to the situation that causes the discomfort?
I really don't see why torture must cause pain from a obvious physical wound or process, but perhaps you just adopted the definition of torture that seems to be the prevailing one in the US administration, or at least was in the past.
For example. I would think showing someone horrible pictures (See: Off-Topic Discussion for an idea of where I'm going with this) with disturbing sounds- perhaps at irregular intervals, while they are confined to a chair, for twelve hours a day, could rise to the level of torture, even if the period of confinement produces no physical pathology.
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Phred
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Quote:
Every one of those definitions you listed mentioned mental anguish.
And as Seuss (and demonstrators and reporters) has pointed out, waterboarding doesn't induce mental anguish, it induces panic. Not the same thing at all.
Again, the discussion is moot, since there ain't gonna be anymore officially-sanctioned waterboarding of terrorists by the US anyway.
Phred
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zorbman
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Poll: 69 percent say technique is torture; 58 percent say U.S. shouldn't use it.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/06/waterboard.poll/index.html
Personally, I would call this particular technique "torture-lite". It certainly meets the definition of torture on a mental basis. Come on. And it meets the common sense test. We may never really know how many have endured this practice since the CIA appears to have illegally destroyed tapes.
The hardcore torture we outsource to countries like Egypt and Syria with extraordinary rendition. Places where torture is considered an art form.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
You know something is wrong when we are even discussing torture by the U.S. in 2008. It shows you how low President Bush has brought the reputation and morals of the country with this evil practice.
Shameful.
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Seuss
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> But I don't see how you can claim it is *not* mental torture.
I would experience waterboarding to show that it isn't torture. I would not experience getting my fingernails ripped out to prove that it isn't torture. As I said earlier, I'm a bit torn on the issue.
> To myself as with Mr. Mukasey, being waterboarded would be torture.
Unless you and Mr. Mukasey have been waterboarded, I don't think either of you are in a position to offer an opinion based upon fact rather than speculation. Ask the men and woman that have voluntarily been waterboarded and get their opinion.
> You know something is wrong when we are even discussing torture by the U.S. in 2008.
Agree with you 100% on this one.
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: johnm214]
#8008680 - 02/11/08 12:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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johnm214, there is no possibility of rational people resolving a difference of opinion when each is discussing a different thing. "Torture" is synonymous neither with "panic" nor with "unpleasantness".
This linguistic exaggeration is so deeply ingrained a characteristic of those of the Lefty persuasion that it is no longer taken seriously by people who actually respect the written word. Despite what Noam Chomsky and his ilk would have you believe, people who exchange their labor for money are not "wage-slaves", governments to the political right of Cambodia or Cuba or Korea are not run by "fascists", a business owner who offers a job to a woman who has none isn't "exploiting" that woman, a person who disagrees with your idea of the ideal foreign policy isn't a "neocon", the Israelis are not committing "genocide" against the Palestineans, and subjecting illegal enemy combatants to unpleasant experiences isn't "torturing" them.
Is waterboarding an experience I would prefer not to undergo? Yep. So is imprisonment. So is being forced to listen to techno music.
Quote:
I would think showing someone horrible pictures (See: Off-Topic Discussion for an idea of where I'm going with this) with disturbing sounds- perhaps at irregular intervals, while they are confined to a chair, for twelve hours a day, could rise to the level of torture, even if the period of confinement produces no physical pathology.
OTD is an unpleasant experience, for sure -- especially if accompanied by shitty music like reggaeton. But torture? Nope.
Phred
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Disco Cat
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8008784 - 02/11/08 01:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
Every one of those definitions you listed mentioned mental anguish.
waterboarding doesn't induce mental anguish, it induces panic.
Have you never experienced panic? It's mental anguish. Ask someone who has had panic attacks. I have. It's extreme mental anguish.
A mind which is spazzing and on the fritz is absolutely in anguish, and I'm certain there exists no better representation of mental anguish than a panicked mind.
Edited by Disco Cat (02/11/08 01:29 PM)
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Disco Cat
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Disco Cat]
#8008809 - 02/11/08 01:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Some definitions for panic from various online dictionaries are:
Terror inspired by a trifling cause or a misapprehension of danger
A sudden, overpowering terror
A sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals.
Overpowering fright
A sudden, overpowering terror, often affecting many people at once
Of, relating to, or resulting from sudden, overwhelming terror
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zappaisgod
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Disco Cat]
#8008875 - 02/11/08 01:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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When all the UN homos are done defining down torture Milli Vanilli will be prosecuted for it. Stupid pussies. Soon it will be against the UN human rights regime to hurt someone's feelings. Oh wait, that already happened.
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Edited by zappaisgod (02/11/08 01:47 PM)
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Disco Cat
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8008908 - 02/11/08 01:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Waterboarding is painful neither physically nor mentally. It does an excellent job of simulating the sensation of drowning, but as one who has twice come within a few inches of drowning in windsurfing incidents (that would be me) I can assure you that drowning is not painful, nor is it anguishing. It's definitely not something I'd like to repeat, but torture? Not even close.
And that was when I was certain I was actually going to die. I mean not just I thought I was going to, but I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt I was a dead man. Prisoners being waterboarded know they aren't going to die -- they know from their training the experience won't be fatal.
Drowning is quite a different experience than waterboarding. Passing out, after being unable to breath, is much less tormenting than continuously gasping for breath and getting a lung full of moisture.
Try breathing through a soaked facecloth for 30 second. Then try doing it for prolonged and undetermined lengths, under force, at the mercy of a captor, whom you can't expect to be concerned over your wellbeing.
Drowning has been known to be a relatively peacful way of death since who knows when, but drowning is not waterboarding.
Stage 1 of drowning: Initial Apnea - The victim struggles to breathe. The glottis closes and, initially, prevents water from entering the lungs. If at the surface, this stage generally lasts from 20 to 60 seconds. Underwater, or further from established air source, time is diminished significantly. Water begins to enter the stomach diminishing buoyancy of the victim. Fatigue sets in due to build-up of waste chemicals in the blood resulting from lack of O2.
Stage 2: Dyspnea - glottis begins to partially relax. Water begins to enter the trachea and continues to enter the stomach. Vomiting may result from the entrance of this water. Victim grows weaker from panic/fatigue and water begins to enter the lungs. Water mixes with lung surfactant and gives the pink frothy appearance to some victims. Brain hypoxia continues.
Stage 3: Terminal Apnea - victim loses consciousness and breathing stops. Convulsions may result from lack of oxygen to the brain. Sphincter muscles may relax and the victim may urinate or defecate, or both.
Stage 4: Cardiac Arrest - Heart ceases to function productively.
In the case of actual drowning, notice that fatigue sets in within the first minute in stage 1. In waterboarding this does not happen, and the victim is held indeffinitely in the panic stage. And unlike when it occurs during training, an actual victim does not have the bonus ease of mind that comes from knowing how temporary their experience will be, or from knowing that the purpose of their waterboarding is to give them experience, rather than fray their minds, or from having their experience lay in the hands on those they trust.
Edited by Disco Cat (02/11/08 02:08 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
#8008952 - 02/11/08 02:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I would experience waterboarding to show that it isn't torture.
I see. So there is no difference in a training exercise wherein you are 100% certain you are not going to drown and being in the hands of an enemy and have no similar guarantee?
Sorry. Not even close.
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Disco Cat]
#8009070 - 02/11/08 02:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Disco Cat writes:
Quote:
Some definitions for panic from various online dictionaries are:
Terror inspired by a trifling cause or a misapprehension of danger
A sudden, overpowering terror
A sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals.
Overpowering fright
A sudden, overpowering terror, often affecting many people at once
Of, relating to, or resulting from sudden, overwhelming terror
You prove my point. According to the definitions of "panic" you yourself supply, panic is either a form of terror or a reaction to terror. Terror is not a synonym for pain or for anguish.
Phred
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Seuss
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> Sorry. Not even close.
Easy to say.
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8009588 - 02/11/08 04:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You would try and have one believe that a dictionary definition of torture is an intelligent grounds for an argument. That Webster can tell us what torture is or isn't.
Ok so let's say for the sake of your argument because waterboarding doesn't inflict visible physical damage it is therefore not "torture." Would you say that tying up a man, and forcing him to watch you rape and torture his wife and or/children is not torture? Because if inflicts no "anguish" on him? How about locking him in solitary confinement with no light or human contact for indefinite periods of time? Not torture? If not, than why has isolation been considered the most effective means for driving an individual insane for centuries, even more than physical torture (see Foucault's Discipline and Punish). How about the fact the US government has defined sleep deprivation as a form of torture?
I don't understand where you get off telling people you know what torture is based on the following evidence:
1) A dictionary
2) An afternoon spent windsurfing
Did your windsurfing accident look like this:
I don't mean to be callous re: a near death experience you had. I am sorry that happened to you. But you brought it in as an arugment and I think it is therefore open to deconstruction.
Before Bush came along the US government, along with most others, defined waterboarding as torture. Quote:
Republican presidential candidate John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, considers waterboarding a form of torture. McCain has been quoted as saying that waterboarding is "no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank."
I was fortunate enough to recently march in Washington where I met a man who had been waterboarded repeatedly by the Khmer Rouge. He had also been beaten with clubs, fists and a pipe. He said waterboarding was the worst phyiscally and mentally. The beatings hurt, but when he realized they wanted to keep him alive, they were not as scary. He said that he asked them over and over again to let him die while they were waterboarding, because the experience of death was so real, so immediate. Tell me. If it's not "anguish" that motivates a man who is undergoing simulated drowning to be allowed to drown, than what is it?
What would your answer be to this man?
It is obvious you won't be convinced. When George Bush turned over what the government already knew as torture and decided waterboarding was acceptable, you were ready with spoon in hand to swallow the notion that it isn't torture because "blah blah blah blah linguistics blah blah." And then you try and claim that denouncing torture as torture is typical of the left. I find it be in particularly bad taste to try and win your argument by bringing partisan mudslinging into such a serious question. I know for a fact many republicans who have been in wars are outraged that anyone in their party would claim that waterboarding is not a form of torture. McCain, who is in a position to know, whereas you aren't, is one such republican. If you are going to swallow Bush's shit sandwich, at least recognize that a lot of people in the GOP don't share your taste buds.
Ultimately, the important question to me however, is not wheter waterboarding should be called "torture" or "interrogation technique" or "operation freedom water technique #7." Rather, whether or not we want, as a nation, to engage in a practice that every other cizilized democracy has abolished years ago, and put ourselves in the company of the Khmer Rouge and the Spanish inquisition. After WWII, when we defeated Japan, we persecuted Japanese soldiers for subjected US soldiers to waterboarding. And damn straight. They should have been. But what was the point if now Bush and Cheney have allowed it to happen? What did my Grandfather fight for, if these assholes are throwing human rights into the toilet?
Sources: David Corn
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/01/national/main3441363.shtml
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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
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zappaisgod
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: gluke bastid]
#8009624 - 02/11/08 05:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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He was waterboarded by the Khmer Rouge? Waterboarded? He is one lucky man. I have trouble believing this. The KR certainly had no problem debating the niceties of what is or is not torture and routinely murdered their victims.
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Disco Cat
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8009727 - 02/11/08 05:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
You prove my point. According to the definitions of "panic" you yourself supply, panic is either a form of terror or a reaction to terror. Terror is not a synonym for pain or for anguish.
I didn't realize that in the US being in a state of terror was akin to sipping iced tea on the beach.
If a person is suffering terror they are so obviously well and deep in a state of mental anguish that it feels ridiculous just pointing it out. Just what do you think mental anguish is?
You must have meant to say that the act of terror is not synonymous with pain or anguish, but the state of it certainly includes pain and anguish. However, it could not be a complete synonym because pain and anguish can have sources other than terror, yet if a person is experiencing terror then they are most certainly at least in mental pain and anguish.
Edited by Disco Cat (02/11/08 05:35 PM)
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: gluke bastid]
#8009741 - 02/11/08 05:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You would try and have one believe that a dictionary definition of torture is an intelligent grounds for an argument. That Webster can tell us what torture is or isn't.
Oh by all means, let's all just ignore whatever the dictionary says a word means and just go with our gut feel.
Is waterboarding unpleasant? Fuck yeah. Is it something most non-masochistic humans would prefer to avoid? Fuck yeah. Is it torture? Fuck no.
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Would you say that tying up a man, and forcing him to watch you rape and torture his wife and or/children is not torture?
LOL. Being a bit redundant here, aren't we? Tying up the guy and making him watch is a lot less repugnant than raping and actually torturing innocents, wouldn't you say? Rather pointless to quibble about what he's going through when you've already jumped the shark on his wife and kid.
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How about locking him in solitary confinement with no light or human contact for indefinite periods of time?
For how long?
Look, the waterboarding thing is over as soon as they stop. There's no lingering after effects the way there might be with tossing someone in the hole for six months or so.
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I don't understand where you get off telling people you know what torture is based on the following evidence:
1) A dictionary
That's as far as you need to go.
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Before Bush came along the US government, along with most others, defined waterboarding as torture.
Incorrect. Until you can direct us to the legislation signed into law prior to January of 2001 defining waterboarding as torture, you can stuff that "fact" back into the orifice from which you plucked it.
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I was fortunate enough to recently march in Washington where I met a man who had been waterboarded repeatedly by the Khmer Rouge.
Are you sure? Because the Khmer Rouge were famous for utilizing a water torture (that wasn't waterboarding) that really was a torture. It went like this:
The captive was restrained, and yards and yards of rough gauze or muslin cloth were forced down his thoat. Then buckets of salt water were poured down his mouth. Some of the water ended up in the lungs, some in the stomach. The captive was then punched in the stomach repeatedly till he vomited up the water while at the same time the yards of cloth were yanked back up his throat, lacerating it severely in the process. This procedure was then repeated over and over, the cloth getting bloodier and bloodier with each repetition.
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It is obvious you won't be convinced.
Yep. Waterboarding isn't torture by any dictionary definition I can find nor by the UN definition quoted here -- particularly waterboarding as used by US interrogators. Of the three terrorists subjected to it, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed lasted the longest -- four minutes -- before cracking. This impressed the interrogators, since the average time by volunteers and US Special Forces trainees is just over a minute.
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Ultimately, the important question to me however, is not wheter waterboarding should be called "torture" or "interrogation technique" or "operation freedom water technique #7."
AH. Now we get to the crux of the biscuit. You object to extracting information from terrorists who don't wish to give that information. In order to bolster your position, you see no harm in characterizing this extraction in inflated and emotional terminology rather than making an actual cogent argument against the practice.
Phred
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Disco Cat]
#8009883 - 02/11/08 05:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I didn't realize that in the US being in a state of terror was akin to sipping iced tea on the beach.
Terror isn't synonymous with anguish. Terror is an especially vivid form of fear, and fear isn't equivalent to anguish, either.
Causing someone to panic isn't the same as torturing them.
Phred
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Redstorm
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8010546 - 02/11/08 07:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Even if it isn't torture (which it is), I've yet to see any sort of proof that torture actually works. I find it much more likely that they say whatever comes into their heads to make them stop the torture.
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8010648 - 02/11/08 08:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
You would try and have one believe that a dictionary definition of torture is an intelligent grounds for an argument. That Webster can tell us what torture is or isn't.
Oh by all means, let's all just ignore whatever the dictionary says a word means and just go with our gut feel.
Sarcasm is not going to help you. I just assumed that you would be grown up enough to understand that a dictionary definition, while never negating the nature of what it describes, can only begin to describe the nature of what it attempts to define. Look up orgasm. Or yellow. Or time. I am not denying that the dictionary definitions you provided are true, just that your use of them is dogmatic and dumbed-down. If you didn't agree with me, you wouldn't even be involved in this thread.
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Is waterboarding unpleasant? Fuck yeah. Is it something most non-masochistic humans would prefer to avoid? Fuck yeah. Is it torture? Fuck no.
why not?
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LOL. Being a bit redundant here, aren't we? Tying up the guy and making him watch is a lot less repugnant than raping and actually torturing innocents, wouldn't you say? Rather pointless to quibble about what he's going through when you've already jumped the shark on his wife and kid.
You just purposefully ignored the point of my argument and are trying to attack the theoretical example. If you aren't going to bother replying to the issue than why bother posting a reply? Clearly I was trying to make a point. I will spell it out:
Do you really believe that you can't torture someone without causing permanent or temporary physical damage?
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Look, the waterboarding thing is over as soon as they stop. There's no lingering after effects the way there might be with tossing someone in the hole for six months or so.
No lingering effects to sleep deprivation either.
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Incorrect. Until you can direct us to the legislation signed into law prior to January of 2001 defining waterboarding as torture, you can stuff that "fact" back into the orifice from which you plucked it.
Never made any claim about legislation. But since the US army court martialed its own soldiers for practicing waterboarding during Vietnam there is sort of an implied rejection. Besides, the point is that this shit wasn't being promoted until Bush and Gonzales.
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I was fortunate enough to recently march in Washington where I met a man who had been waterboarded repeatedly by the Khmer Rouge.
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Are you sure? Because the Khmer Rouge were famous for utilizing a water torture (that wasn't waterboarding) that really was a torture. It went like this:
I'm sure, he described it in no uncertain terms.
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AH. Now we get to the crux of the biscuit. You object to extracting information from terrorists who don't wish to give that information.
You probably decided that since I am oppossed to torture, I am on the left and I want to see terrorists do whatever they want to. You're so out of control when it comes to partisan division! I am oppossed to torture and I consider waterboarding torture. I am also oppossed to the suspension of habeas corpus. I believe in Civil and Human rights. There are all types of things the military that could do that might be effective, but aren't worth it. I don't think we should go around nuking the world and I don't think that we should torture our prisoners and not try them. Why? I'll quote Heinrich Eberbach, a Nazi General who was captured and tried in England: One must have a certain amount of humanity and decency, because otherwise the pendelum of history swings against you
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In order to bolster your position, you see no harm in characterizing this extraction in inflated
What have I inflated?
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and emotional
I'm proud to be emotional in regards to this and many other political questions. As soon as you stop being emotional you start being apathetic.
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terminology rather than making an actual cogent argument against the practice.
My argument is very cogent, and cogency and passion are hardly mutually exclusive. Here is a summary: Refusing to discuss a term beyond its dictionary definition wouldn't even pass in junior high school debate, and waterboarding is clearly a form of torture as evinced by various evidence and arguments I presented.
Please note that never did I make a claim that it shouldn't be used, all I demand is that if you stand behind it stop deluding yourself so you can sleep better at night. Be a man. Admit what you are advocating. That it is ok to torture confirmed terrorists in order to find out what their buddies are up to.
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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
- Thomas Paine
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8010715 - 02/11/08 08:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'll also post the following reply, but Zorbman gets all the credit for it.
Quote:
Phred said:
Look, the waterboarding thing is over as soon as they stop. There's no lingering after effects the way there might be with tossing someone in the hole for six months or so.
'Some victims were still traumatized years later, he said. One patient couldn’t take showers, and panicked when it rained. “The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience,” he said.' -Dr. Allen Keller, the director of the Bellevue/N.Y.U. Program for Survivors of Torture.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/02/14/050214fa_fact6?currentPage=5
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Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
- Thomas Paine
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8010825 - 02/11/08 08:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
is not the least bit painful. Therefore, it is by definition not torture.
phred, not to second guess you but have you ever been a participant on the
receiving end? it's a little painful, trying to cough up 15 gallons of water
while flat on your back, they show us all sorts of shit in the media as
demonstrations of water boarding... a gallon jug poured on the forehead...
this would hardly be questionable, actual methods range from a large bucket to a
trashcan filled with water, it's dumped on your face while you're blindfolded,
they dont try playing that nonsense chinese water torture shit, they simulate
drowning and the fact is asphyxiation is not that uncommon with the method
while it's only a little pain, it's definitely terrifying, in fact since it
doesnt qualify as torture, it must be terrorism.... really would you confess
to anything if the methods of extraction didnt hurt or have you fearing for your
life and limb?
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The systematic use of terror, the deliberate creation and exploitation of fear for bringing about political change
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I realize Libbies have trouble winning arguments when forced to use words the way they are defined, but that's not my problem, nor should it be the problem of Republicans.
I guess
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8010837 - 02/11/08 08:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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BTW, I'm all for torture, it's effective
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: gluke bastid]
#8010872 - 02/11/08 08:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I just assumed that you would be grown up enough to understand that a dictionary definition, while never negating the nature of what it describes, can only begin to describe the nature of what it attempts to define.
Of course, duh. But it does capture the essentials -- what differentiates the concept under discussion from every other concept. What is the difference between torturing someone and frightening someone? Why are there two words rather than one? Because the two acts are not the same. Inducing in someone the sensation that he is drowning is not the same as inducing physical or mental agony in that person.
Now, if you want to claim that undergoing waterboarding is an unpleasant experience, a frightening experience, a panic-inducing experience, even a terrifying experience, you'll get no argument from me. But it isn't torture.
So far the only people in this discussion who actually have any experience at all with either waterboarding or drowning are the two people (Seuss and myself) who say it isn't torture. Coincidence? I think not.
Words have meanings. That's why there are so many of them. If you aren't going to use words the way they're meant to be used, there's no point having a discussion.
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why not?
Because it isn't painful, either mentally or physically. It's unpleasant and frightening, true. But that doesn't fit the requirement.
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Do you really believe that you can't torture someone without causing permanent or temporary physical damage?
No, I don't believe that. I have suffered for over two decades now from the most excruciating medical condition known to man: Horton's Syndrome (also known as suicide headaches or cluster headaches), so I know just how possible it is to suffer agonizing pain with no permanent or even temporary physical damage. But waterboarding isn't painful.
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Never made any claim about legislation.
No? You said "Before Bush came along the US government, along with most others, defined waterboarding as torture." Until you can provide us the federal government statute or bill or executive order or rules of engagement defining waterboarding as torture, you will excuse me for treating it as yet another bullshit claim with no backing other than your own gut feel.
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Besides, the point is that this shit wasn't being promoted until Bush and Gonzales.
That was because everything changed after September 11. You are aware, are you not, that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured because one of his homies coughed him up after a 35 second waterboarding session?
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You probably decided that since I am oppossed to torture, I am on the left and I want to see terrorists do whatever they want to. You're so out of control when it comes to partisan division! I am oppossed to torture and I consider waterboarding torture. I am also oppossed to the suspension of habeas corpus. I believe in Civil and Human rights. There are all types of things the military that could do that might be effective, but aren't worth it. I don't think we should go around nuking the world and I don't think that we should torture our prisoners and not try them. Why? I'll quote Heinrich Eberbach, a Nazi General who was captured and tried in England: One must have a certain amount of humanity and decency, because otherwise the pendelum of history swings against you.
You are a member of a US security organization charged with making sure a second September 11 doesn't happen. You capture a guy you are certain knows the whereabouts of the chief architect of the first September 11 attacks -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. You ask him repeatedly to cough up KSM's location. He refuses. You have every reason to believe KSM would love to pull off another September 11-style attack, that he is in fact planning one right now. What methods will you use to get the guy to talk?
We already know you won't waterboard him. But how about these methods --
-- Strip him naked, tie him to a chair, have a scantily-clad hooker parade in front of him, who then extracts a tampon (apparently bloody) from herself and wipes it repeatedly in his beard. When he doesn't crack, the hooker smears the guy's copy of the Koran with this tampon.
-- take one of his fellow jihadis into the next room in the company of two very hefty and nasty looking dudes carrying electric drills and soldering irons. A few minutes later blood curdling shrieks can be heard coming from the room over the sizzle of burning flesh and whining drill bits churning through bone. The shrieks are suddenly cut off. One of the big dudes re-enters the room with a thoroughly shredded clump of flesh that upon being waved under the prisoner's nose appears to bear a marked resemblance to a scorched and pierced scrotal sack. Of course, the whole thing is staged using sound effects and other Hollywood tricks. But your prisoner doesn't know this.
-- take him and his jihadi colleague for a blindfolded helicopter ride. A safety net is rigged under the landing gear of the copter, but it can't ne seen from inside. Remove their hoods, tell your target to talk or he'll be tossed out the door. When he doesn't talk, toss his buddy out the door and into the net.
Are any of those methods torture? No, they aren't. They're unpleasant, disgusting, sacreligious, terrifying. But they aren't torture. And neither is waterboarding.
Phred
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Redstorm]
#8010895 - 02/11/08 09:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Redstorm writes:
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Even if it isn't torture (which it is), I've yet to see any sort of proof that torture actually works. I find it much more likely that they say whatever comes into their heads to make them stop the torture.
Waterboarding works. That's how Khalid Sheikh Mojammed was captured. His homie was waterboarded for 35 seconds and returned to his cell. Next morning he claimed to have had a revelation from Allah that the right thing to do was to tell his captors where KSM was. He told them, and lo and behold! KSM was right where the guy said he'd be.
And of course torture works. Ask any Viet Nam war POW. Ask John McCain. Do you think all those Viet Nam war POWs signed those "confessions" because they wanted to? No... they signed them to get their captors to stop the torture.
If torture didn't work, we wouldn't be having this discussion, fa cryin' out loud.
Phred
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8010957 - 02/11/08 09:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
You are a member of a US security organization
What methods will you use to get the guy to talk?
are we using the normal US intel to determine this guys knows something, to date
it's pretty damned sketchy but lets say it's accurarte, I's start with the
incisors, hammer, screw driver... tappity tap, whoops, that one broke
"does it hurt when I stick things in the hole?" yeah... I bet it does.
that's just me, waterboarding takes too long, the UN isnt going to find his body
when I;m finished so I wont be answering to them or anything from the justice
department... torture is a messy business, it starts with a bad haircut
waterboarding is just sloppy amateur stuff but since it's carried out by 'enemy
combatants' as opposed to 'the good guys' that you went through training with,
it qualifies as anguish of the mind with a little bodily fluid tossed in
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: gluke bastid]
#8010965 - 02/11/08 09:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oops. Forgot to address a few points --
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What have I inflated?
The definition of torture.
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My argument is very cogent, and cogency and passion are hardly mutually exclusive. Here is a summary: Refusing to discuss a term beyond its dictionary definition wouldn't even pass in junior high school debate...
Improperly defining terms wouldn't pass muster in a junior high school debate. Scaring the piss out of someone is not the same as torturing them.
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...and waterboarding is clearly a form of torture as evinced by various evidence and arguments I presented.
None of the "evidence" and "arguments" pass muster. The fundamental basis of the concept "torture" involves extreme pain -- agony, to be more accurate. This agony can be either physical or mental, but need not be permanent. The point is, waterboarding doesn't generate agony. It generates fear, panic, perhaps even terror in many individuals. But fear, panic and terror are not the same thing as agony. As one who has experienced real agony more times than he cares to remember (as a clusterhead) and has also experienced fear and panic on several occasions, I assure you the two are not equivalent at all.
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Please note that never did I make a claim that it shouldn't be used...
No? What was the point of all this, then --
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I am oppossed to torture and I consider waterboarding torture. I am also oppossed to the suspension of habeas corpus. I believe in Civil and Human rights. There are all types of things the military that could do that might be effective, but aren't worth it. I don't think we should go around nuking the world and I don't think that we should torture our prisoners and not try them.
Sure sounds to me like you're saying it shouldn't be used. To paraphrase the rest of your comment:
"All I demand is that if you stand behind your opposition to harsh interrogation stop deluding yourself so you can sleep better at night. Be a man. Admit what you are advocating. That it is wrong to torture confirmed terrorists in order to find out what their buddies are up to."
Phred
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8011077 - 02/11/08 09:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
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Please note that never did I make a claim that it shouldn't be used...
No? What was the point of all this, then --
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I am oppossed to torture and I consider waterboarding torture. I am also oppossed to the suspension of habeas corpus. I believe in Civil and Human rights. There are all types of things the military that could do that might be effective, but aren't worth it. I don't think we should go around nuking the world and I don't think that we should torture our prisoners and not try them.
Sure sounds to me like you're saying it shouldn't be used.
Reword what I wrote above to "I don't think that we should torture prisoners that we have not tried." Original one wasn't clear.
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- Thomas Paine
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Phred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: gluke bastid]
#8011141 - 02/11/08 09:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Reword what I wrote above to "I don't think that we should torture prisoners that we have not tried." Original one wasn't clear.
Tried for what? They aren't being interrogated as part of a punitive sentence handed down by a court or a tribunal, they're being interrogated so the US security forces can roll up the rest of their network and thwart planned operations.
Phred
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art
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8011359 - 02/11/08 11:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Are any of those methods torture? No, they aren't. They're unpleasant, disgusting, sacreligious, terrifying. But they aren't torture. And neither is waterboarding.
I just recently watched a movie about Palestinian women that were tortured by Israel. One was beaten, and raped for weeks, she had a pole shoved in her vagina. I am sure that you would consider that "torture"...but she said the worst part was when she was made to get naked in front of her father. I was not able to tell if there was more that was implied, but I think the idea is the same. You can go on and on all you want about legality, and semantics of "torture" but I fail to see how anyone with any empathy can call the things you mentioned anything but torture.
There have also been studies done that have showed that torture does NOT work. I will try and find it. I can't remember who it was that did them.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: art]
#8011848 - 02/12/08 02:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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So the experience brings the human being it is being inflicted upon to think they are about to die, but it is not torture... Well, the experience of the immediacy of my own death wasn't torture when I was on 'cid, but I guess I didn't have accompanying, physical sensations to make it more unpleasant, and I guess I had accepted it... Anyone who isn't ready to die is going to be tortured by the idea that they will die, especially in a situation like that, and I'm not buying "oh they were trained for it, they know we're just fucking with them". 
At least where we're looking to draw the line is nowhere near the likes of the iron maiden, so I guess we're making progress... 
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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
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Seuss
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Redstorm]
#8012043 - 02/12/08 04:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I find it much more likely that they say whatever comes into their heads to make them stop the torture.
That is a problem with torture, yes. It happens because pain is built up slowly until people will say anything to make it stop. Their mind, although saturated in pain, is still functioning. They can still think, calculate, lie, or say whatever they think will end the pain.
Waterboarding is different. It quickly creates a state of panic where the mind stops thinking. One does not have the ability to think, "Gee, If I give them a lie, maybe they will stop." It doesn't work that way. Once panic kicks in, thinking ends.
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this would hardly be questionable, actual methods range from a large bucket to a trashcan filled with water, it's dumped on your face while you're blindfolded, they dont try playing that nonsense chinese water torture shit, they simulate drowning and the fact is asphyxiation is not that uncommon with the method
As creative as the human mind is, I'm sure there are many methods. The one that I know of restrains the person on their back with their feet raised slightly higher than their head. They are blindfolded and a rag is shoved into their mouth. Water, about a cup at a time, is poured into the rag. The water drains through the rag into the back of your throat. The rag prevents you from swallowing without gagging and from spitting out the water. With your head down and back, the water drains into your sinuses causing more gag reflexes. As soon as you mange to get a bit of air, the next cup of water is poured in. After anywhere from 30 seconds to 30 minutes (usually a few minutes is all it takes) a state of panic sets in. All the while several people are asking you questions. In the state of panic, they remove the rag/gag, and let you talk for a second or two. As soon as the panic starts to clear, the rag goes back in and the process repeats.
Asphyxiation, meaning death from lack of oxygen, is not something that commonly occurs with waterboarding. The idea is to get information, not to kill.
> There have also been studies done that have showed that torture does NOT work.
And yet waterboarding does work, which gets back to "is waterboarding torture"?
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
#8012064 - 02/12/08 05:21 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The idea that one man would impose that kind of force on another man really sucks. I wonder if we would inflict that much suffering upon ourselves to know the "truth". What would be the point of knowing that "truth" if it was done through suffering... I don't understand. Call it torture, don't call it torture, I still see it as an ethical line that the United States shouldn't have crossed in the first place. It has really damaged our international presence and our good standing as the high standard on the planet. Maybe if our intelligence-gathering were more effective, we wouldn't have to rely on inflicting intense moments of suffering on others, regardless of what they know or what their intentions. I think we validate them by doing so, a confirmation of our intervention in their affairs, to the point that we would inflict the experience of imminent death upon them to get our way. It has been the American way for so long, but it didn't used to be. The Soviets was used as an excuse for our intervention for so long, but there has been no real justification for our interference in the internal affairs of other nations since, to the point that we arm countries and stateless organizations and military dictators only to wage war with them later.
America certainly lost its way, it originated to escape the intervention of the British empire, ironic that it would become everything it fought agansit.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: fireworks_god]
#8012092 - 02/12/08 05:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> I still see it as an ethical line that the United States shouldn't have crossed in the first place.
Again, I agree 100% with this. However, the semantics are important in this case because they determine the difference between somebody (Bush & Co) breaking the law or simply being immoral. In my mind, waterboarding rides the line between torture and extremely unpleasant. I can easily argue that it is torture, and I can easily argue that it is not torture. Either way, I find it unethical and not something that the US should be supporting. What I can't decide is did it constitute a violation of law at the time it was used?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
#8012172 - 02/12/08 06:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, I understand why the debate on semantics exists, I just think it is unfortunate that it would come down to such narrow terms when what should not be lost is the spirit of the law. If it comes down to such a narrow difference regarding the letter of the law, then I think the spirit of the law, which seems easy enough to recognize, is what the judgement should be decided upon. I think that it would rule agansit the practice of waterboarding, because it is not justifiable in a modern society, which is probably why the international community says  .
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: fireworks_god]
#8013416 - 02/12/08 02:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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So, if there is a suffocating hostage buried alive somewhere and you have the guy who did it and knows where she is but doesn't want to give it up because he is a sick piece of shit, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? I would gladly and personally remove his fingernails one by one. And don't bother telling me that bullshit that torture doesn't work. It sure as shit does. I'm not talking about false confessions. I don't give a shit about confessions. I want to know where the dying person is before it's too late and I don't give a fuck what I have to do to find out. The rest of you can let her die. Great guys.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8013456 - 02/12/08 03:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are conditions under which I would use torture. Your example is a good one.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
#8013497 - 02/12/08 03:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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So now it becomes the old prostitution joke. Fuck me for a million dollars? Sure! Fuck me for twenty dollars? What do you think I am? Most people arguing against speak in absolutes when what we should really be discussing is where the line should be drawn.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8013806 - 02/12/08 04:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Trouble with drawing lines is that someone has to honor them.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
#8013831 - 02/12/08 04:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> Trouble with drawing lines is that someone has to honor them.
Thus you support anarchy? I suspect I am missing your point.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
#8014199 - 02/12/08 06:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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My point is that most of our authority figures cannot be trusted to be honest. It's an observation and nothing more. I have no idea how you got anarchy from my comment. Are you some kind of radical fanatic?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
#8014309 - 02/12/08 06:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm curious how any of you who are against torture/waterboarding feel about the use of anticholergenic drugs like scolpamine or BZ. What about CCK4 or sodium lactate infusions. Is chemically induced panic more acceptable?
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8014504 - 02/12/08 07:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Terror isn't synonymous with anguish. Terror is an especially vivid form of fear, and fear isn't equivalent to anguish, either.
Impaled also isn't a synonym of pain.
Panicked describes the order of a state, anguish is an applicable description of the feeling. Impaled describes the order of a state, pain is an applicable description of the feeling. If someone is experiencing terror, they are in anguish.
Edited by Disco Cat (02/12/08 07:26 PM)
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: d33p]
#8014539 - 02/12/08 07:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
I'm curious how any of you who are against torture/waterboarding feel about the use of anticholergenic drugs like scolpamine or BZ. What about CCK4 or sodium lactate infusions. Is chemically induced panic more acceptable?
I'm not interested in the subject of waterboarding, but I can't see how chemical pain would differ from physical pain. But while thinking about chemical coercion, mdma likely has a high potential for info extraction.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: d33p]
#8014565 - 02/12/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
I'm curious how any of you who are against torture/waterboarding feel about the use of anticholergenic drugs like scolpamine or BZ. What about CCK4 or sodium lactate infusions. Is chemically induced panic more acceptable?
Where can I score it? I'll try anything once.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (02/12/08 07:27 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
#8014587 - 02/12/08 07:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Where can I score it? I'll try anything once.
Sometimes that's the only chance you get.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8014706 - 02/12/08 07:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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One life is plenty for me. I got it for free so I won't feel cheated when it's called back in.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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art
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 331
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
#8016040 - 02/13/08 12:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
So, if there is a suffocating hostage buried alive somewhere and you have the guy who did it and knows where she is but doesn't want to give it up because he is a sick piece of shit, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? I would gladly and personally remove his fingernails one by one. And don't bother telling me that bullshit that torture doesn't work. It sure as shit does. I'm not talking about false confessions. I don't give a shit about confessions. I want to know where the dying person is before it's too late and I don't give a fuck what I have to do to find out. The rest of you can let her die. Great guys.
And what about when someone has been caught who is thought to have a huge mushroom operation and the government wants to find it...should they "personally remove his fingernails?"
Yeah I know, two completely different things
The problem with torture is it does work...at getting people to admit to the crime, whether innocent or guilt, hence why it should be illegal!
If water boarding will cause people guilty or innocent to admit to the crime how the fuck can anyone advocate using it!?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: art]
#8017214 - 02/13/08 11:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't want them to be tortured for confessions. I'll worry about the niceties of a trial after I get the girl out of the trunk. Just exigent information, when necessary.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8017409 - 02/13/08 12:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Which the person may or may not have.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Which the person may or may not have.
Waterboarding is the fastest way to find that out for sure. KSM holds the record for resisting before spilling the truth -- four minutes. I think it's a pretty safe bet that if anyone can hold out longer than that, he has nothing we want.
Phred
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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That is a valid and important criteria, for sure. I wouldn't condone it on spec, I would have to be quite sure he knew something. But, this goes to my entire point. It is foolish to take a useful tool away just because it may be misused. Keep it in the closet and only bring it out under certain circumstances but do not remove it entirely from consideration when it's utility is obvious. So, the discussion should not be that it is morally reprehensible in all circumstances. The discussion becomes what circumstances is it morally reprehensible NOT to use it.
Whores or wives? You decide. Or, if you prefer, gigolos or sugar daddies.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8018433 - 02/13/08 04:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
That is a valid and important criteria, for sure. I wouldn't condone it on spec, I would have to be quite sure he knew something. But, this goes to my entire point. It is foolish to take a useful tool away just because it may be misused. Keep it in the closet and only bring it out under certain circumstances but do not remove it entirely from consideration when it's utility is obvious. So, the discussion should not be that it is morally reprehensible in all circumstances. The discussion becomes what circumstances is it morally reprehensible NOT to use it.
Whores or wives? You decide. Or, if you prefer, gigolos or sugar daddies.
yeah, this is pretty reasonable, of course the problem is defining when it is percisely allowable, and in this case I think their should be similar evidence that would allow an officer to search a house without a warrant in this country
But since the CIA doesn't seem to be great record keepers, and the administration doesn't seem to keen on independant review of their practices, is it even meaningful to place restrictions on these technique's use?
For me, I think its generally morally repugnant, but I think in some cases their is a need for torture (as a matter of morals, not of policy). If I was a guard, and I had a good information that an individual was harboring information that would save people from death, I'd certainly feel justified in using otherwise-inhumane methods.
But since these instances are rare, and they'd likely never come to light anyways (unless the procedure is abused and every joe shmo is subjected to it... kinda like how it seems like there wasn't very good evidence against alot of the guantanamo detainees).
edit: kinda trailed off there.
My last point was is it even necessary for their to be explicit legal exceptions? The president generally has the authority to enforce our treaties how he sees fit (correct me if I'm wrong) so even if this was outlawed, couldn't the President authorize it anyways in extreme circumstances (which I would hope they would anyways)? And even if this occured in america, it is the President's perogative whom to prosecute or whom to pardon anyways....
Just saying a ban would likely not be enforced in absolution anyways... But it'd be shitty to start down that road, and then have people following orders get hung out to dry if the president doens't wanna take the backlash
Edited by johnm214 (02/13/08 05:06 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: johnm214]
#8018456 - 02/13/08 04:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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As far as anyone knows there have been exactly 3 people waterboarded in earnest. They became quite helpful.
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art
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/05
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8020267 - 02/13/08 10:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
But since these instances are rare, and they'd likely never come to light anyways (unless the procedure is abused and every joe shmo is subjected to it... kinda like how it seems like there wasn't very good evidence against alot of the guantanamo detainees)
exactly.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
#8021013 - 02/14/08 03:21 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> I have no idea how you got anarchy from my comment.
You said, without context, "Trouble with drawing lines is that someone has to honor them."
The problem is that every rule we live by is "a line" somewhere. Do I speed or not? Do I murder or not? Do I jaywalk or not? Do I torture people or not? With this in mind, everybody is expected to honor these rules, and when they don't the police come along to enforce the rules. If there are no lines to cross, there are no rules to violate, thus anarchy is all that is left. That is how I got from your comment to anarchy. *shrug*
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
#8021789 - 02/14/08 10:25 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It would be quite helpful if you learned how to reply to the correct person.
The context was in all of my posts if you read them. My point was that the lines get crossed and nobody is there to enforce that correction. There was some interesting photos of some soldiers crossing the line with prisoners in Iraq. Now I think it's most likely true that the commanders were behind it and most likely scapegoated these soldiers so they would have to pay the penalty for condoning torture. I think it's more than likely that lots of torture goes on that will never be reported to the American public. I frankly do have any faith in the word of these people and they are supposed to police themselves?
As I said I would condone torture in some very few select instances but frankly I think our military goes way beyond that.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Disco Cat]
#8023837 - 02/14/08 06:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Too bad.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,364
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8023907 - 02/14/08 06:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Waterboarding is clearly torture - You think you are going to die and will do anything to stop it. As soon as you wake up, they do it again and again.
Information gained through torture usually complete bullshit - They say some random crap to make it stop.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Try reading the thread.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Information gained through torture usually complete bullshit - They say some random crap to make it stop.
normally after the info is spilled it continues until it's verified or new information is given
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