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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214719 - 04/22/09 04:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Eighth Amendment, Cruel and Unusual punishment shall not be administered.

Geneva Convention, cannot torture prisoners of war (fuck off with that enemy combatant bullshit, they are POW's)

UN convention against torture.

All of these are violated via the excessive torture of prisoners.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214747 - 04/22/09 05:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's pretty fucking stupid.  Lincoln suspended it when necessary and it has been perverted for decades.  People dieing for some dubious legality?  You need to get your hands out of your pants on a more regular basis.

By the way, there is no Constitutionality issue in the current discussion.






No he didn't.  He suspended habeas corpus, not the constitution.  The constitution allows habeas corpus to be suspended in times of inserection and rebellion.  Whatever the merits of lincoln's actions it was not illegal.



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
That not a suicide pact crap is bullshit.  The constitution is what it says.



You don't get to ignore it just cuz you find a catchy theme.

And are you justifying the bush program or soem alternate program, because i have no idea if its the former why you are making all these wild claims that we will be harmed if they can't do the disputed techniques.



That "catchy theme" is from a Supreme Court justice.  And what makes the techniques disputed is only that there are stupid faggots who think they are too mean.  Boo fucking hoo.





Yeah, from a supreme court justice who was writing a disenting opinion, i.e. not the supreme court.


The only time that phrase has been used, it is entirelly legaly meaningless, in an opinion of the court was to afirm that the constition wasn't being violated.


i.e. the constitution isn't a suicide pact not because we get to ignore it when people find it inconveiniant., no, it is not a suicide pact because the elastic clause provides sufficient breadth of scope for congress to reasonably carry out its duties without endangering the country.

Quote:

Citizenship is a most precious right. It is expressly guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which speaks in the most positive terms. [Footnote 10] The Constitution is silent about the permissibility of involuntary forfeiture of citizenship rights. [Footnote 11] While it confirms citizenship rights, plainly there are imperative obligations of citizenship performance of which Congress in the exercise of its powers may constitutionally exact. One of the most important of these is to serve the country in time of war and national emergency. The powers of Congress to require military service for the common defense are broad and far-reaching, [Footnote 12]


for, while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact. Similarly, Congress has broad power under the Necessary and Proper Clause to enact legislation for the regulation of foreign affairs. Latitude in this area is necessary to ensure effectuation of this indispensable function of government. [Footnote 13]


  372 US 159


While that phrase is meaningless you seem to misconstrue how it is used.  It is saying that we don't need to go beyond the constittuion because of the manner in which it is written rather than we may because it sucks.



The issue was specifically that the constitution did provide authority to congress to carry out its duties, which isn't the case here.



Perhaps the most silly thing of your invokation of that phrase is what the court actually held.  They specifically held that the remedy sought in that case could be had by the government by the constitution but not without due process.  They specifically ruled the extrajudicial, without due process, actions sought by the government to be illegal.

Quote:

It is fundamental that the great powers of Congress to conduct war and to regulate the Nation's foreign relations are subject to the constitutional requirements of due

Page 372 U. S. 165

process. [Footnote 17] The imperative necessity for safeguarding these rights to procedural due process under the gravest of emergencies has existed throughout our constitutional history, for it is then, under the pressing exigencies of crisis, that there is the greatest temptation to dispense with fundamental constitutional guarantees which, it is feared, will inhibit governmental action.

"The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances."
...

We conclude, for the reasons stated, that ยงยง 401(j) and 349(a)(10) are punitive, and, as such, cannot constitutionally stand, lacking as they do the procedural safeguards which the Constitution commands. [Footnote 43] We recognize that draft evasion, particularly in time of war, is a heinous offense, and should and can be properly punished. Dating back to Magna Carta, however, it has been an abiding principle governing the lives of civilized men that "no freeman shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or outlawed or exiled . . . without the judgment of his peers or by the law of the land. . . ." [Footnote 44] What we hold is only that, in keeping with this cherished tradition, punishment cannot be imposed "without due process of law." Any lesser holding would ignore the constitutional mandate upon which our essential liberties depend. Therefore, the judgments of the District Courts in these cases are affirmed.






Compare that to this case.  Now you are trying to claim the phrase was used to justify evading the constitution (rather than the court's use which was to observe that the constitution's elastic clause provided breadth in carrying out congress's enumerated powers) which is incorrect and alleging that this phrase sumarizes the justification to torture.  How funny then that the court specifically held that despite congress having explicit authority in that case that they could not invoke such without due process.



So what exactly is your point?  You've turned the phrase on its head.  You've also used it to reach a holding entirely opposite to the court's holding even when it used that phrase, and advocated extrajudicial punishment.



And how is their no constitutionality issue in the present case?  A person may not be deprived of life nor liberty without due process of law and may not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment nor may be deprived of his right to petition a court for relief.  Your statement only holds if you presume we are only talking about acts which escape these claused through their nature or by evading the jurisdiction of the courts.

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214753 - 04/22/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's pretty fucking stupid.  Lincoln suspended it when necessary and it has been perverted for decades.  People dieing for some dubious legality?  You need to get your hands out of your pants on a more regular basis.

By the way, there is no Constitutionality issue in the current discussion.





"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10214761 - 04/22/09 05:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Eighth Amendment, Cruel and Unusual punishment shall not be administered.




It's not punishment
Quote:



Geneva Convention, cannot torture prisoners of war (fuck off with that enemy combatant bullshit, they are POW's)




Sorry, you don't get to rewrite the convention to suit your fatuous argument
Quote:



UN convention against torture.


Who cares.  They aren't the boss of us.
Quote:



All of these are violated via the excessive torture of prisoners.



They weren't tortured.  Sorry, Mary.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Chespirito]
    #10214779 - 04/22/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's pretty fucking stupid.  Lincoln suspended it when necessary and it has been perverted for decades.  People dieing for some dubious legality?  You need to get your hands out of your pants on a more regular basis.

By the way, there is no Constitutionality issue in the current discussion.





"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."



Well then, it's clearly Constitutional then, isn't it, the public safety being involved?
I have not read that there was a Constitutional issue, merely legal interpretations of laws.  Why do you think foreign national combatants are protected by our Constitution?  If they were every POW would require a trial and they clearly do not.  Never have.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10214796 - 04/22/09 05:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Rawr! Terrorists isn't peoples! Waterboarding is fun! :crankey:

Seriously Zappa, you have no idea what you're talking about. You live in a fictional world where the US is the only bastion of hope in a dark and evil world. And if we have to violate the Constitution and the Geneva convention to save our glorious nation from the evil brown people then so be it. You're a fucking nazi and you don't even realize it



Although I'm sure waterboarding can be fun it wasn't used for amusement in these cases.  It had actual real world benefits, as has been demonstrated. It saved lives.  Zubaydah himself said so.  Why are you aiding and abetting murderers?


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214802 - 04/22/09 05:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So, I can come over and waterboard you? Because it's not torture or punishment? It's just a little good cop bad cop? Just status quo?

You call them non-uniformed murderers, do we waterboard murderers in this country? As for the convention, from the third convention

Quote:

Section 1 covers the beginning of captivity (Articles 17โ€“20). It dictates what information a prisoner must give and interrogation methods that the detaining power may not use "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion".




Pretty clear there, let's go on shall we?

As for the UN, I already explained your warped world view to you but here in the real world we actually function as an international society as well as a national one. Part of that involves adhering to the rule of law, despite no coercion to do so. All this has been true since the era of liberal internationalism which began around 1920, so hey, you should be old enough to know about it.

You're like Dickhead Cheney, just making up facts as it pleases you because we're America damn it! And the whole world is out to get us. Maybe you should consider going back to school, because your ass was just handed to you.

If you need anymore lessons let me know.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #10214859 - 04/22/09 05:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

For your enlightenment murderers and all other prisoners in max security are treated far worse by their fellow inmates. 
Warterboarding is not torture, Mary.  Simulated drowning is not torture.  Real drowning is.  Simulated isn't.  Perhaps you would like to have tea with Zubby and Khalid.  They seem like your kind of people.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10214894 - 04/22/09 05:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well then, how about beatings? Stress positions? Simulated executions?

I can come over and waterboard you then? You're ok with that? And for my enlightenment, they're treated badly by other prisoners, so criminals. Guess that makes us criminals for treating them badly as well? Looks like you knocked out the only feeble leg you had to stand on. And my name's not Mary, it's Neo! Gastronomicus! I'm done reading your paltry lies. And no, Zubby and Khalid aren't my kind of people. I like laws, they don't so I guess that makes them your kind of people. Terrorist nazi scum


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10216028 - 04/22/09 08:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Gastronomicus said:

Geneva Convention, cannot torture prisoners of war (fuck off with that enemy combatant bullshit, they are POW's)




Sorry, you don't get to rewrite the convention to suit your fatuous argument
Quote:









I'm sorry , did I miss something?


Are you just repeating this as often as you can untill people start bleieving it?



Are you still claiming they are not prisoner's of war?  How do you know?



Have you read the transcripts?  Did those folks seem pretty scary to you?  In many cases the evidence that they were combatents was pretty shitty (like a guy having an ak47 in his house and some other dude claiming, through heresay, that he was a rebel).


Regardless, how you can still be claiming they are not POW's is beyond me.  You have never provided any evidence of this.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10216039 - 04/22/09 08:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
For your enlightenment murderers and all other prisoners in max security are treated far worse by their fellow inmates. 
Warterboarding is not torture, Mary.  Simulated drowning is not torture.  Real drowning is.  Simulated isn't.  Perhaps you would like to have tea with Zubby and Khalid.  They seem like your kind of people.






Source?


And what is the relevance?

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10216209 - 04/22/09 08:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Warterboarding is not torture, Mary. 




Then why did we prosecute those Japanese officers for it?


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10216605 - 04/22/09 09:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

we did not. they where prosecute for the death march, not providing aid to injured POW, killing of POWs, killing surrendering forces.


--------------------

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10216805 - 04/22/09 10:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Then why did we prosecute those Japanese officers for it?



:winner:


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10217638 - 04/23/09 12:29 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The LA plan being busted from waterboarding is bullshit.  The plans were broken before our little Middle Eastern buddy was even put under water. Get your time line straight.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10217745 - 04/23/09 01:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Practiced on American soldiers? Could you source that?




Its true.  I know someone that was training for some elite special forces thing, and in the final test they staged a fake foreign takeover of the base.  They took the guy and waterboarded him and tried to get him to spill secrets.  He didn't and passed the test.

Quote:

For your enlightenment murderers and all other prisoners in max security are treated far worse by their fellow inmates.
Warterboarding is not torture, Mary.  Simulated drowning is not torture.  Real drowning is.  Simulated isn't.





Waterboarding is surely torture, it makes you think you are drowning and about to die.  There aren't many other things that are worse.

Waterboarding is a threat to the security of the US - Once we do it to someone they will do whatever it takes to destroy us.  Not a good use of tax dollars.

Torture provides bad information, they will say all sorts of random crap if you make them feel like they are dieing.

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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10217829 - 04/23/09 01:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Wherein is this a Constitutional issue and wherein are non-uniform murders covered by the Geneva Convention?  Nowhere.  Keep making shit up.





I don't see how you can be saying:


a) that nobody was wearing appropriate markings that was a combatant

b) everyone was a combatent

c) the combatents are war criminals if they don't wear uniforms




  If you disagree that's fine, but I wish you'd stop trying to represent the legal issues as if they are self evident and asserting factual issues which you can't possibly know.


You've been called on this before and i don't recall you having any rationalization for such assertions then either.  This seems far more ambiguous then you make it out to be.


On what do you base your claims that they aren't pow's?  Demonstrate it.  They are entitled to a presumption that they are till proven otherwise if its at all unclear, or at least entitled to be treated as if they are POW's untill a tribunal finds them not to be- we certainly seem to have acted questionably with regards to that.

Edited by johnm214 (04/23/09 02:17 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10218679 - 04/23/09 08:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The Geneva Convention requires combatants to wear identifying uniforms so as to distinguish themselves from civilians, which is for the purpose of protecting civilians.  Failure to do so, in my opinion, invalidates any Geneva Convention protections.

The "waterboarding" practiced by the Japanese was a radically different procedure from the one practiced by the CIA.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/justice_dept_official_cia_wate.php
Quote:

The Spanish and Japanese use of "water torture," he said, "involved the forced consumption of a mass amount of water." Asked by a Republican whether Bradbury was aware of any "modern use" of waterboarding that involved the "lungs filling with water," Bradbury said no.

The Japanese forced the ingestion of so much water that it was "beyond the capacity of the victim's stomach." Weight or pressure was then applied by standing or jumping on the stomach of the victim, sometimes leading to "blood coming of the victim's mouth." The Spanish Inquisition would use the technique to the point of "agony or death."

But the CIA wasn't doing that, he argued. "Strict time limits" were involved -- presumably governing the length of time that interrogators could induce the sensation of drowning. There were "safeguards" and "restrictions" that made it a much more controlled procedure. Because of that, he said, the technique did not amount to torture.

But Bradbury said that subsequent laws and Supreme Court decisions passed in 2005 and 2006 had changed his office's analysis, and in 2006 the CIA removed waterboarding from its authorized battery of interrogation techniques.




I bolded that last because it shows that Congress could have passed a law banning it any time it saw fit.  The lesson from these memos is not that the Bush Administration was trampling the Constitution and the applicable laws but that they bent over backwards to comply.  Once again, Congress could have banned the technique any time it wanted to.

Further, the Japanese practice was prosecuted when used against a civilian:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html
Quote:

Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian.




Liars and fools continue to assert that X is Y because they are both called letters.


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10218737 - 04/23/09 08:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As I've asserted previously, the geneva convention does not require uniforms for someone to be a POW (it doesn't require uniforms at all I believe your referring to the distinctive mark requirement which could simply be a flag or something on the sleeve)- their are other situations in which a combatant may be a POW or be required to be treated as a POW, such as spontaneously resisting the US force prior to occupation. 


You've yet to proffer evidence that establishes these men either weren't POW's or weren't required to be treated as POW's untill it was ruled by a competent tribunal that they weren't.  As such I don't know why you keep asserting this fact.



And yes, it is well known that the people bitching about Bush are the same ones that went along smiling and posing for photo ops the whole time in many cases.  This is well established.  Obama, Pelosi, the whole gang supported all sorts of stuff they later whined about.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10218792 - 04/23/09 08:38 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I dare say the entire contents of the memos, wherein this is hashed and rehashed establishes that a competent tribunal did decide on it.  Who would you prefer, Mickey Mouse and Friends?  Don't even say the UN.  Don't go there girlfriend, they aren't competent at anything.


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