|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10218815 - 04/23/09 08:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I've not read anything but excerpts of the memos yet so I wouldn't know, though I am not aware of tribunals that even were allowed to pass on the question, though I'm not 100%
That was my major problem with how bush was doing things. He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't. And from the transcripts of some of the hearings there is serious doubt whether some of those folks are combatents at all- in which case they would be POW's.
In any case it doesn't really matter, I was just refuting your claim that you know they weren't POW's. What tribunal established the captives as not POWs though?
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
#10218857 - 04/23/09 08:55 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
> He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't.
Not really an accurate statement. The Guantanamo Bay Detainee Administrative Review Board examined every detainee to determine if they were indeed an enemy combatant or not. The ARB found nearly 40 detainees were not enemy combatants. I'm not claiming that the process was fair, or that it was open to the public, but there is/was a process in place.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
#10218978 - 04/23/09 09:24 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
John wants to tribunal shop until he finds one that agrees with him. Until he does...ILLEGITIMATE! FTW1111
--------------------
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10219144 - 04/23/09 09:59 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
> John wants to tribunal shop until he finds one that agrees with him. Until he does...ILLEGITIMATE! FTW1111
From what I have read, it sounds like he wants US criminal court principles applied to the detainees. Although I understand this reasoning, the detainees are not under the jurisdiction of the US courts, but are instead under the jurisdiction of the US military. Unfortunately for me, I can argue it either way...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
#10219161 - 04/23/09 10:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said: Unfortunately for me, I can argue it either way...
Isn't that how it goes?
In a world full of imperfect solutions I can argue many things both ways.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
#10219182 - 04/23/09 10:05 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said: > He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't.
Not really an accurate statement. The Guantanamo Bay Detainee Administrative Review Board examined every detainee to determine if they were indeed an enemy combatant or not. The ARB found nearly 40 detainees were not enemy combatants. I'm not claiming that the process was fair, or that it was open to the public, but there is/was a process in place.
Do you have a source for that? (that they could argue they were POW's and the tribunal could grant that relief?)
My understanding is that they did not have the power to declare someone a POW and were deciding on whether they were a combatant or not, and if they were then they were illegal. This was one of the major problems with the initial tribunals and I wasn't aware that ever got fixed. If I recall this was an issue at oral arguments in the supreme court case as well, I just forget if the appellate court had jurisdiction to grant a US citizen habeas corpus proceedings (even after Bush stated citizens would get it regardless, their didn't appear to be a mechanism to demand such) or consider whether the detainee was entitled to POW protection.
I realize my quote in the above was incorrect, I wasn't debating that they got the ability to challenge their combatency, as it were, but rather they couldn't establish, to my knowledge, their status as a pow or other protected party- it came out different then I thought. They also appeared to have been no procedure to provide them POW treatment pending the tribunal if it was demanded by the treaty- though I have no way of knowing if this is a violation since I don't know if any of them were POW's.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
#10219249 - 04/23/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said: > John wants to tribunal shop until he finds one that agrees with him. Until he does...ILLEGITIMATE! FTW1111
From what I have read, it sounds like he wants US criminal court principles applied to the detainees. Although I understand this reasoning, the detainees are not under the jurisdiction of the US courts, but are instead under the jurisdiction of the US military. Unfortunately for me, I can argue it either way...
Nope, I've said several times I think civil procedure would be fine. (though I think they should have the right to face their accuser in addition if the testimony is alleging directly that they commited the unlawful acts)
But this isn't about that, its about following the geneva convention.
The geneva convention doesn't make all those combatents without distinguishing marks per se unlawful combatents, and in case of any doubt they are to be treated as POW's till adjudicated otherwise.
It appears they had no process to be adjudicated otherwise and no process to prove they were not.
Bush created this mess. If he would have held the tribunals more than a bajillion years after the fact they might have, you know, been able to find half the witnesses they were using to convict these guys with (on hearsay evidence). Its not like the prospects of loosing the tribunal is terrible for the government, they still get to imprison the folks until hostilities cease. For all we know the ones that aren't being tortured, as per the geneva convention's definition, are allready recieving pretty much the same treatment they'd otherwise recieve as POW's.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
#10219390 - 04/23/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Bush created the mess? I don't think Bush was responsible for decades of failure to pass clear laws.
--------------------
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10219437 - 04/23/09 11:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
oh hoh, but he doesn't get it both ways man.
He claims the AUMF allows everything under the sun including his warantless wiretapping shenanigans and somehow it doesn't allow him to release the guys he captured or treat them as prisoner's of war?
He had the authority to get the tribunals rolling right away- he needed no authorization from congress to release folks who passed his process.
He created the mess with his failure to do jack shit for many years, and now both sides' witnesses apear to have evaporated.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
#10219594 - 04/23/09 11:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I think he did exactly what was required. If Congress disagreed they certainly had the power to change it. You, on the other hand, are powerless and irrelevant. Thankfully so, I might add.
--------------------
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10219618 - 04/23/09 11:39 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Feel free to make an argument rather than what you are thinking.
Whether congress agreed isn't the issue. He's commander in chief, he had the AUMF, he didn't provide adequate procedures to my knowledge, and his dilatory tactics screwed shit up.
If we don't want to follow the geneva convention we should withdraw.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
#10219688 - 04/23/09 11:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Indeed we should. It is a joke. By the way, we never ratified, and thus are not bound by, the 1977 protocols of the Geneva Convention. It is because of this: Article 44.-Combatants and prisoners of war
Quote:
The most controversial section of Protocol 1 is Article 44, especially Paragraphs 3 - 5. It is the primary cause for several United States of America administrations not ratifying this protocol, due to its treatment of captured insurgents and guerrillas (see Francs-tireurs); who do not satisfy the requirements of Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention; as prisoners of war or an equivalent status.
3. In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in such situations, he carries his arms openly:
( a ) During each military engagement, and
( b ) During such time as he is visible to the adversary while he is engaged in a military deployment preceding the launching of an attack in which he is to participate.
Acts which comply with the requirements of this paragraph shall not be considered as perfidious within the meaning of Article 37, paragraph 1 ( c ).
4. A combatant who falls into the power of an adverse Party while failing to meet the requirements set forth in the second sentence of paragraph 3 shall forfeit his right to be a prisoner of war, but he shall, nevertheless, be given protections equivalent in all respects to those accorded to prisoners of war by the Third Convention and by this Protocol. This protection includes protections equivalent to those accorded to prisoners of war by the Third Convention in the case where such a person is tried and punished for any offences he has committed.
5. Any combatant who falls into the power of an adverse Party while not engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack shall not forfeit his rights to be a combatant and a prisoner of war by virtue of his prior activities.
Francs-tireurs, insurgents and guerrillas were afforded prisoner of war status by the Third Geneva Convention provided that they carried arms openly, had superiors they were responsible to and distinguished themselves from civilians by a distinctive sign, i.e. an armband.
Protocol I extends these protections offered to Francs-tireurs, insurgents and guerrillas in the Third Geneva Convention by giving them prisoner of war status even if they don't distinguish themselves from the civilian population. Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention requires combatants to have a "fixed distinctive sign recognisable at a distance"; Protocol I releases lawful combatants from this obligation. Without such distinctive identification lawful combatants can come under attack from enemies posing as civilians without the enemy committing perfidy or affecting the legality of their combat status. Civilians may be more likely to be attacked by combatants who are threatened by an undistinguishable enemy. This is especially relevant in peace keeping operations as whilst civilian police forces are trained to assess a situation and only to fire if certain of their targets' hostile intent, militaries are trained to assess targets and attack if not certain of their peaceful intent.
Protocol I further gives all combatants, lawful under Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention or not, an equivalent status to 'prisoner of war' with the same rights and protections, when captured, regardless of their adherence to the laws of war. Whilst prisoner of war status under the Third Geneva Convention is contingent upon adherence to the laws of war, under Protocol I no breach of the laws of war can place an enemy combatant outside the scope of any rights or protections afforded to captured lawful enemy combatants.
We never ratified it. It has zero bearing. Several administrations. Several. And not ratified by Congress.
--------------------
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10219944 - 04/23/09 12:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Okay, well I'm relying on the third one anyways that was signed around WWII's end I believe "relative to treatment of prisoner's of war" or something.
I also don't find its provisions onerous or at all objectionable.
I think it is both a sign of a decent country that they abide by these provisions and if anything avoids the hypothetical situation where a country treats us like we treat them, though who knows if that would ever happen anyways.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
#10220547 - 04/23/09 02:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, that would be nice if there was a quid pro quo. But there isn't. Ever. For a further illustration of what we and other civilized nations find in our Islamist enemy see this
Quote:
IDF probes opened following the offensive discovered that Haniyeh and other senior Hamas commanders took over a ward of the hospital, the Gaza Strip's largest, and set up a command center for the duration of the campaign.
Hamas believed that Israel would not target the hospital due to the high risk of collateral damage.
Guards were posted at the entrance to the ward and field commanders took advantage of the humanitarian corridor and cessation of action that the IDF instituted every day for several hours, to enter the hospital and meet with senior Hamas officials to receive instructions.
Senior Hamas commanders also set up a command center in a Red Crescent Society clinic in Khan Yunis and used it as a detention center.
Nice indeed.
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 6 months, 9 days
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10221572 - 04/23/09 06:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Yeah, that would be nice if there was a quid pro quo. But there isn't. Ever.
Nice indeed.
Why would there be if we don't ever practice what we preach?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
TGRR
Horrible Bastard
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
#10221582 - 04/23/09 06:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said: > He just declared "enemy combatents" without any chance to demonstrate that someone wasn't.
Not really an accurate statement. The Guantanamo Bay Detainee Administrative Review Board examined every detainee to determine if they were indeed an enemy combatant or not. The ARB found nearly 40 detainees were not enemy combatants. I'm not claiming that the process was fair, or that it was open to the public, but there is/was a process in place.
When did that process begin?
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
|
TGRR
Horrible Bastard
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10221589 - 04/23/09 06:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I think he did exactly what was required. If Congress disagreed they certainly had the power to change it. You, on the other hand, are powerless and irrelevant. Thankfully so, I might add.
Yes, because you republicans are so relevant right now. LOL.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
|
TGRR
Horrible Bastard
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: deadmeat986]
#10221598 - 04/23/09 06:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deadmeat986 said: we did not. they where prosecute for the death march, not providing aid to injured POW, killing of POWs, killing surrendering forces.
And waterboarding.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
#10221615 - 04/23/09 06:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I think he did exactly what was required. If Congress disagreed they certainly had the power to change it. You, on the other hand, are powerless and irrelevant. Thankfully so, I might add.
Yes, because you republicans are so relevant right now. LOL.
Who do you think you are? Rahm Emanuel? You are mud, my man, mud. You have no power at all.
--------------------
|
TGRR
Horrible Bastard
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
|
Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10221648 - 04/23/09 06:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I think he did exactly what was required. If Congress disagreed they certainly had the power to change it. You, on the other hand, are powerless and irrelevant. Thankfully so, I might add.
Yes, because you republicans are so relevant right now. LOL.
Who do you think you are? Rahm Emanuel? You are mud, my man, mud. You have no power at all.
That's true. But watching you rant about other peoples' irrelevance is particularly amusing, seeing as how "your side" lost 2 branches of government in 2 years, and now have precisely as much say in how things get done as Obama and Pelosi are willing to allow them.
Let me say that again: Your side has precisely as much say in how things get done as Obama and Pelosi allow them.
Personally, I think that's funny as hell.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
|
|