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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Redstorm]
    #8012043 - 02/12/08 04:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I find it much more likely that they say whatever comes into their heads to make them stop the torture.




That is a problem with torture, yes. It happens because pain is built up slowly until people will say anything to make it stop. Their mind, although saturated in pain, is still functioning. They can still think, calculate, lie, or say whatever they think will end the pain.

Waterboarding is different. It quickly creates a state of panic where the mind stops thinking. One does not have the ability to think, "Gee, If I give them a lie, maybe they will stop." It doesn't work that way. Once panic kicks in, thinking ends.

Quote:

this would hardly be questionable, actual methods range from a large bucket to a trashcan filled with water, it's dumped on your face while you're blindfolded, they dont try playing that nonsense chinese water torture shit, they simulate drowning and the fact is asphyxiation is not that uncommon with the method




As creative as the human mind is, I'm sure there are many methods. The one that I know of restrains the person on their back with their feet raised slightly higher than their head. They are blindfolded and a rag is shoved into their mouth. Water, about a cup at a time, is poured into the rag. The water drains through the rag into the back of your throat. The rag prevents you from swallowing without gagging and from spitting out the water. With your head down and back, the water drains into your sinuses causing more gag reflexes. As soon as you mange to get a bit of air, the next cup of water is poured in. After anywhere from 30 seconds to 30 minutes (usually a few minutes is all it takes) a state of panic sets in. All the while several people are asking you questions. In the state of panic, they remove the rag/gag, and let you talk for a second or two. As soon as the panic starts to clear, the rag goes back in and the process repeats.

Asphyxiation, meaning death from lack of oxygen, is not something that commonly occurs with waterboarding. The idea is to get information, not to kill.

> There have also been studies done that have showed that torture does NOT work.

And yet waterboarding does work, which gets back to "is waterboarding torture"?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
    #8012064 - 02/12/08 05:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The idea that one man would impose that kind of force on another man really sucks. I wonder if we would inflict that much suffering upon ourselves to know the "truth". What would be the point of knowing that "truth" if it was done through suffering... I don't understand. Call it torture, don't call it torture, I still see it as an ethical line that the United States shouldn't have crossed in the first place. It has really damaged our international presence and our good standing as the high standard on the planet. Maybe if our intelligence-gathering were more effective, we wouldn't have to rely on inflicting intense moments of suffering on others, regardless of what they know or what their intentions. I think we validate them by doing so, a confirmation of our intervention in their affairs, to the point that we would inflict the experience of imminent death upon them to get our way. It has been the American way for so long, but it didn't used to be. The Soviets was used as an excuse for our intervention for so long, but there has been no real justification for our interference in the internal affairs of other nations since, to the point that we arm countries and stateless organizations and military dictators only to wage war with them later.

America certainly lost its way, it originated to escape the intervention of the British empire, ironic that it would become everything it fought agansit.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8012092 - 02/12/08 05:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> I still see it as an ethical line that the United States shouldn't have crossed in the first place.

Again, I agree 100% with this. However, the semantics are important in this case because they determine the difference between somebody (Bush & Co) breaking the law or simply being immoral. In my mind, waterboarding rides the line between torture and extremely unpleasant. I can easily argue that it is torture, and I can easily argue that it is not torture. Either way, I find it unethical and not something that the US should be supporting. What I can't decide is did it constitute a violation of law at the time it was used?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
    #8012172 - 02/12/08 06:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, I understand why the debate on semantics exists, I just think it is unfortunate that it would come down to such narrow terms when what should not be lost is the spirit of the law. If it comes down to such a narrow difference regarding the letter of the law, then I think the spirit of the law, which seems easy enough to recognize, is what the judgement should be decided upon. I think that it would rule agansit the practice of waterboarding, because it is not justifiable in a modern society, which is probably why the international community says :what:.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8013416 - 02/12/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So, if there is a suffocating hostage buried alive somewhere and you have the guy who did it and knows where she is but doesn't want to give it up because he is a sick piece of shit, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? I would gladly and personally remove his fingernails one by one. And don't bother telling me that bullshit that torture doesn't work. It sure as shit does. I'm not talking about false confessions. I don't give a shit about confessions. I want to know where the dying person is before it's too late and I don't give a fuck what I have to do to find out. The rest of you can let her die. Great guys.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8013456 - 02/12/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There are conditions under which I would use torture. Your example is a good one.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
    #8013497 - 02/12/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So now it becomes the old prostitution joke. Fuck me for a million dollars? Sure! Fuck me for twenty dollars? What do you think I am? Most people arguing against speak in absolutes when what we should really be discussing is where the line should be drawn.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8013806 - 02/12/08 04:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Trouble with drawing lines is that someone has to honor them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
    #8013831 - 02/12/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> Trouble with drawing lines is that someone has to honor them.

Thus you support anarchy? I suspect I am missing your point.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
    #8014199 - 02/12/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My point is that most of our authority figures cannot be trusted to be honest. It's an observation and nothing more. I have no idea how you got anarchy from my comment. Are you some kind of radical fanatic?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlined33p
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
    #8014309 - 02/12/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm curious how any of you who are against torture/waterboarding feel about the use of anticholergenic drugs like scolpamine or BZ. What about CCK4 or sodium lactate infusions. Is chemically induced panic more acceptable?


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
    #8014504 - 02/12/08 07:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Terror isn't synonymous with anguish. Terror is an especially vivid form of fear, and fear isn't equivalent to anguish, either.




Impaled also isn't a synonym of pain.
Panicked describes the order of a state, anguish is an applicable description of the feeling. Impaled describes the order of a state, pain is an applicable description of the feeling. If someone is experiencing terror, they are in anguish.


Edited by Disco Cat (02/12/08 07:26 PM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: d33p]
    #8014539 - 02/12/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
I'm curious how any of you who are against torture/waterboarding feel about the use of anticholergenic drugs like scolpamine or BZ. What about CCK4 or sodium lactate infusions. Is chemically induced panic more acceptable?




I'm not interested in the subject of waterboarding, but I can't see how chemical pain would differ from physical pain. But while thinking about chemical coercion, mdma likely has a high potential for info extraction.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: d33p]
    #8014565 - 02/12/08 07:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
I'm curious how any of you who are against torture/waterboarding feel about the use of anticholergenic drugs like scolpamine or BZ. What about CCK4 or sodium lactate infusions. Is chemically induced panic more acceptable?




Where can I score it? I'll try anything once.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (02/12/08 07:27 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
    #8014587 - 02/12/08 07:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:


Where can I score it? I'll try anything once.




Sometimes that's the only chance you get.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8014706 - 02/12/08 07:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

One life is plenty for me. I got it for free so I won't feel cheated when it's called back in.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineart
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Icelander]
    #8016040 - 02/13/08 12:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So, if there is a suffocating hostage buried alive somewhere and you have the guy who did it and knows where she is but doesn't want to give it up because he is a sick piece of shit, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? I would gladly and personally remove his fingernails one by one. And don't bother telling me that bullshit that torture doesn't work. It sure as shit does. I'm not talking about false confessions. I don't give a shit about confessions. I want to know where the dying person is before it's too late and I don't give a fuck what I have to do to find out. The rest of you can let her die. Great guys.




And what about when someone has been caught who is thought to have a huge mushroom operation and the government wants to find it...should they "personally remove his fingernails?"

Yeah I know, two completely different things:rolleyes:
The problem with torture is it does work...at getting people to admit to the crime, whether innocent or guilt, hence why it should be illegal!

If water boarding will cause people guilty or innocent to admit to the crime how the fuck can anyone advocate using it!?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: art]
    #8017214 - 02/13/08 11:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't want them to be tortured for confessions. I'll worry about the niceties of a trial after I get the girl out of the trunk. Just exigent information, when necessary.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8017409 - 02/13/08 12:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Which the person may or may not have.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8017438 - 02/13/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Which the person may or may not have.




Waterboarding is the fastest way to find that out for sure. KSM holds the record for resisting before spilling the truth -- four minutes. I think it's a pretty safe bet that if anyone can hold out longer than that, he has nothing we want.




Phred


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