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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
#10212645 - 04/22/09 09:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Waterboarding has been practiced on American soldiers and I think CIA for some time.
It is disheartening to read that you fail to understand that this intelligence is useful. It is really quite clearly useful for them to know the precise limits to which we will go. Was 90 enough? Jon Stewart doesn't know. Jon Stewart is a comedian. Also an asshole but that is irrelevant. Waterboarding is unpleasant. If he knows we will do it over and over again until he coughs up the info then he will cough up the info. From the mouth of Zubaydah himself:
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Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, "as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, 'brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship." In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that "Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable." The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.
Not just permitted but necessary. Why do you suck terrorist choad?
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biggyfred
Stranger
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10212683 - 04/22/09 09:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: Waterboarding has been practiced on American soldiers and I think CIA for some time.
Practiced on American soldiers? Could you source that? While stationed at Ft. Bragg, I was twice involved with the SERE program for special forces soldiers. Many (surprisingly benign) tactics were used to "break" SF soldiers, but never once was water boarding used.
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It is disheartening to read that you fail to understand that this intelligence is useful. It is really quite clearly useful for them to know the precise limits to which we will go. Was 90 enough?
What do you think the limit should be? Where do you draw the line? And what experience do you have that qualifies you above the lay opinion?
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Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, "as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, 'brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship." In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that "Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable." The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.
There are many ways to break people that don't involve even touching them. Why do you assume that all effective techniques require physical violence?
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Not just permitted but necessary. Why do you suck terrorist choad?
Is that necessary?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: biggyfred]
#10212719 - 04/22/09 09:35 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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> Practiced on American soldiers? Could you source that?
I know from first hand experience that it is part of your training, or at least it was back in the early 90's, for people that work in certain fields and have a high likelihood of being captured and tortured by an enemy. In the military, it is known as SERE training.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10212820 - 04/22/09 10:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: Not just permitted but necessary. Why do you suck terrorist choad?
Again, if the technique is so terribly effective why is it necessary to practice it on the same person hundreds of times in a single month? Can you fathom what the 183rd torture session would have brought to light that the first 182 torture sessions didn't?
From what I read yesterday, the total yield of hundreds of torture sessions was a greater understanding of the structure of Al-Qaeda.
Really? For that you sacrifice the entire moral authority of the country and plunge those of who actually give a shit into a moral quandary? We know you don't give a fuck, so you don't have to reiterate that point.
Your point that this is practiced on US personnel is ridiculously irrelevant. Every single soldier in the United States military is put in an enclosed room with tear gas as well. So is that not torture either? What the fuck is your point?
So, way to go Bushites! You've succeeded in torturing the fuck out of numerous people for the vast gold mine of data that you likely could have gained in a million other ways.
And your inference that I'm sympathetic to terrorists is just fucking stupid, and you know it. I'm concerned about the country, something you seem to be pitifully unaware of.
I'm going back to work now.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
#10212987 - 04/22/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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What is this mystical moral authority you cite? How about the moral obligation to prevent murdering assholes from killing our citizens, which took place on a wholesale scale at a place I know you just visited. What specifically was garnered in the 183rd interrogation? I don't know. Those are in secret memos that the feckless twat we call President won't release.
I provided information that said there was specific intel which helped prevent an attack on the Library building in LA. If one hang nail was prevented by pulling the thumbnails out of these scum it would be enough for me. But that isn't what happened. Lives were saved. Why won't the cunt President release those docs? Because he is a political fuckhole who gives not two shits about doing his job and is far more concerned with his image than the American people.
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biggyfred
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Registered: 09/13/03
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
#10213057 - 04/22/09 10:57 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Practiced on American soldiers? Could you source that?
I know from first hand experience that it is part of your training, or at least it was back in the early 90's, for people that work in certain fields and have a high likelihood of being captured and tortured by an enemy. In the military, it is known as SERE training.
Like I said in my post, I was involved in 3rd level SERE training in 1998 and 1999 at Ft. Bragg, NC. There was no waterboarding or anything that could be considered "enhanced" interrogation. We talked about why harsher methods weren't used and it was because they weren't necessary.
Zappa, I'm curious if you would support torturing incarcerated Americans if they were deemed to have important information. Just curious.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: biggyfred]
#10213109 - 04/22/09 11:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
biggyfred said:
Quote:
Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, "as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, 'brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship." In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that "Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable." The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.
There are many ways to break people that don't involve even touching them. Why do you assume that all effective techniques require physical violence?
Did you even read what Zubaydah said? He said that it is permissable under allah to cave in when they have reached their limits under physical and psychological hardship. It is NOT permissable otherwise. The religious lunatic has made a complete and compelling argument that physical and psychological hardship is necessary to extract information from these turds.Quote:
Quote:
Not just permitted but necessary. Why do you suck terrorist choad?
Is that necessary?
Yes.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: biggyfred]
#10213137 - 04/22/09 11:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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biggyfred said:
Zappa, I'm curious if you would support torturing incarcerated Americans if they were deemed to have important information. Just curious.
Important to save lives? Absolutely. I would go much further than these techniques, which are not torture. I do not consider, by the way, protecting people from destroying themselves to be saving their lives. You know the usual argument. A hostage is buried without food or water and will die if not found soon. The perp knows where. Yep, he's getting it full bore. No quarter.
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biggyfred
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Registered: 09/13/03
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10213839 - 04/22/09 02:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said:Did you even read what Zubaydah said? He said that it is permissable under allah to cave in when they have reached their limits under physical and psychological hardship. It is NOT permissable otherwise. The religious lunatic has made a complete and compelling argument that physical and psychological hardship is necessary to extract information from these turds.
I don't base my value decisions on the decisions of others. Certainly nothing an avowed terrorist says impacts any decision I make. I'm not quite sure why you'd do so. In addition, it seems clear to me that the terrorists are strongly focusing on ways to elicit responses from America that they can use to triangulate world opinion against us with. Given those, I can't understand how the correct response would be to, essentially, give them what they want.
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zappaisgod said:Important to save lives? Absolutely. I would go much further than these techniques, which are not torture. I do not consider, by the way, protecting people from destroying themselves to be saving their lives. You know the usual argument. A hostage is buried without food or water and will die if not found soon. The perp knows where. Yep, he's getting it full bore. No quarter.
How do you reconcile that willingness to institutionalize torture with the Constitutional protections afforded American citizens?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: biggyfred]
#10213990 - 04/22/09 02:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
biggyfred said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:Did you even read what Zubaydah said? He said that it is permissable under allah to cave in when they have reached their limits under physical and psychological hardship. It is NOT permissable otherwise. The religious lunatic has made a complete and compelling argument that physical and psychological hardship is necessary to extract information from these turds.
I don't base my value decisions on the decisions of others. Certainly nothing an avowed terrorist says impacts any decision I make. I'm not quite sure why you'd do so. In addition, it seems clear to me that the terrorists are strongly focusing on ways to elicit responses from America that they can use to triangulate world opinion against us with. Given those, I can't understand how the correct response would be to, essentially, give them what they want.
Value decisions? They want to be defeated? World opinion? That gang of whores? You live in a dream world wherein you think we can be successful and well liked whereas every single shred of evidence points otherwise. Nobody loves a winner, no matter what.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:Important to save lives? Absolutely. I would go much further than these techniques, which are not torture. I do not consider, by the way, protecting people from destroying themselves to be saving their lives. You know the usual argument. A hostage is buried without food or water and will die if not found soon. The perp knows where. Yep, he's getting it full bore. No quarter.
How do you reconcile that willingness to institutionalize torture with the Constitutional protections afforded American citizens?
I do believe that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. Further, none of the things detailed are torture. You can keep saying it and I will keep telling you that it is bullshit. Why do you feel that human life is sacrificial to some nebulous and dubious legal distinction?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10214083 - 04/22/09 02:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: Did you even read what Zubaydah said? He said that it is permissable under allah to cave in when they have reached their limits under physical and psychological hardship. It is NOT permissable otherwise. The religious lunatic has made a complete and compelling argument that physical and psychological hardship is necessary to extract information from these turds.
So you're saying that torture is justified.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#10214092 - 04/22/09 02:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are occasions where it would be justified and this occasion was not one where it was used. Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Not all physical and psychological hardship is torture. Sorry if that doesn't suit your suicidal tendencies.
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johnm214



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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10214280 - 04/22/09 03:31 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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That not a suicide pact crap is bullshit. The constitution is what it says.
You don't get to ignore it just cuz you find a catchy theme.
And are you justifying the bush program or soem alternate program, because i have no idea if its the former why you are making all these wild claims that we will be harmed if they can't do the disputed techniques.
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johnm214



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Loc: Americas
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Seuss]
#10214420 - 04/22/09 04:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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.
Edited by johnm214 (04/23/09 12:28 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
#10214454 - 04/22/09 04:07 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: That not a suicide pact crap is bullshit. The constitution is what it says.
You don't get to ignore it just cuz you find a catchy theme.
And are you justifying the bush program or soem alternate program, because i have no idea if its the former why you are making all these wild claims that we will be harmed if they can't do the disputed techniques.
That "catchy theme" is from a Supreme Court justice. And what makes the techniques disputed is only that there are stupid faggots who think they are too mean. Boo fucking hoo.
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Chespirito
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
#10214564 - 04/22/09 04:27 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Personally I'm willing to let the country crumble around us before going against the constitution
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Chespirito]
#10214625 - 04/22/09 04:38 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's pretty fucking stupid. Lincoln suspended it when necessary and it has been perverted for decades. People dieing for some dubious legality? You need to get your hands out of your pants on a more regular basis.
By the way, there is no Constitutionality issue in the current discussion.
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Gastronomicus
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Chespirito]
#10214642 - 04/22/09 04:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Rawr! Terrorists isn't peoples! Waterboarding is fun! 
Seriously Zappa, you have no idea what you're talking about. You live in a fictional world where the US is the only bastion of hope in a dark and evil world. And if we have to violate the Constitution and the Geneva convention to save our glorious nation from the evil brown people then so be it. You're a fucking nazi and you don't even realize it
-------------------- Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up
LAGM2024
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
#10214680 - 04/22/09 04:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wherein is this a Constitutional issue and wherein are non-uniform murders covered by the Geneva Convention? Nowhere. Keep making shit up.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Gastronomicus]
#10214704 - 04/22/09 04:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gastronomicus said: Rawr! Terrorists isn't peoples! Waterboarding is fun! 
Seriously Zappa, you have no idea what you're talking about. You live in a fictional world where the US is the only bastion of hope in a dark and evil world. And if we have to violate the Constitution and the Geneva convention to save our glorious nation from the evil brown people then so be it. You're a fucking nazi and you don't even realize it
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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