Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]
Why Not Just Call It Torture?
    #8008357 -

One of my many gripes with the Fascis...I mean, Republican administration is its never-ending parsing over words. For a group that claims to be proudly anti-Political Correctness to the point of intolerance you would expect them to be remarkably clear about the way they treat their "Suspected Terrorists." I mean, George Bush tells us every day that he doesn't even know which way is up on a poll to say nothing of actually caring about its contents.

So why run from the word torture?

No sane person can consider waterboarding and not think it is torture. The A.G., Mr. Mukasey said that it would torture if used on him. Mccain, a victim of actual torture said waterboarding is torture.

But if you ask George Bush or any of our pet Conservatives here they will tell you its not and add cute little quotations to make it "torture".

Why not call it like it is? Why are you so afraid to admit that you will torture someone to get information?

If public and international opinion be damned, stop being so mealy-mouthed and say what you fucking mean.

Or might not the American people in general and your flock of Evangelical sheep in particular not be so fond of a "Pro-Torture" ticket as they are of a "Pro-Life" one?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8008396 -

Quote:
No sane person can consider waterboarding and not think it is torture. The A.G., Mr. Mukasey said that it would torture if used on him. Mccain, a victim of actual torture said waterboarding is torture.


Neither of these two worthies has ever been waterboarded. Waterboarding -- from the dozens of accounts we have available to us from everyone from antiwar demonstrators to reporters to members of our own elite armed forces -- is not the least bit painful. Therefore, it is by definition not torture.

I realize Libbies have trouble winning arguments when forced to use words the way they are defined, but that's not my problem, nor should it be the problem of Republicans.



Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
    #8008452 -

Where is your definition from?

The Neo-Con Handbook To Winning An Argument By Narrowly Defining A Term?

If we use an actual definition from the UN Convention Against Torture, we read...

Quote:
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.


Do you think drowning, whether real or false, causes mental suffering?

And if you say no, you're a liar.

And since when do you have to undergo a specific torture before you're able to speak intelligently on its painful-ness? I've never been tarred and feathered, but I'm pretty sure it hurts.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
    #8008498 -

The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, Article 1, defines torture as:

Quote:
For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.


So the big question: Does waterboarding inflict severe mental suffering?

I'm torn on the issue. Experiencing waterboarding sucks. Once you lose focus and start to panic, you will do anything, or say anything, to end it. At the same time, we use waterboarding to train our special forces, and members of other areas of the government, on what to expect if captured and tortured. It is difficult to call something torture when many of us have voluntarily experienced it as part of our training.

Edit:

You beat me to the quote...

> Do you think drowning, whether real or false, causes mental suffering?
> And if you say no, you're a liar.

Severe mental suffering. Being imprisoned causes mental suffering. Not knowing if you are ever going to be allowed to go free causes mental suffering. Waterboarding creates a temporary state of panic where a person talks without thinking about what they are saying.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
    #8008510 -

But you are getting that training to prepare you for being tortured.

Is not that not a de facto admission that waterboarding is torture?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
    #8008540 -

> But you are getting that training to prepare you for being tortured. Is not that not a de facto admission that waterboarding is torture?

No, it is not an admission of torture... if anything, it is the opposite; something very close to torture that we can use as a training tool.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
    #8008562 -

You can't expect them to pull your fingernails out.

The big difference is the physical versus the mental definitions of torture. Myself and those who think like me are not saying waterboarding is comparable to ripping someone's eye out. You can argue that it is not an intense type of physical torture.

But I don't see how you can claim it is *not* mental torture.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8008566 -

Quote:
Where is your definition from?


From the Random House Unabridged Dictionary --

1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.

And from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language --

1 a Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
1 b An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2 Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: "the torture of waiting in suspense."
3 Something causing severe pain or anguish.

Waterboarding is painful neither physically nor mentally. It does an excellent job of simulating the sensation of drowning, but as one who has twice come within a few inches of drowning in windsurfing incidents (that would be me) I can assure you that drowning is not painful, nor is it anguishing. It's definitely not something I'd like to repeat, but torture? Not even close.

And that was when I was certain I was actually going to die. I mean not just I thought I was going to, but I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt I was a dead man. Prisoners being waterboarded know they aren't going to die -- they know from their training the experience won't be fatal.

Finally, it's a moot point anyway, since the US has only ever done it to three terrorists and has said it won't do it anymore -- hopefully because they have found something even more effective than waterboarding.




Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
    #8008573 -

I see Seuss beat me to it -- waterboarding doesn't induce anguish (either physical or mental) it induces panic. Not the same thing at all.




Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
    #8008584 -

Every one of those definitions you listed mentioned mental anguish.

I applaud you for being so stoic in the face of certain death, but I doubt everyone is so willing to shuffle off the mortal coil. I would not like to drown. To myself as with Mr. Mukasey, being waterboarded would be torture.

Phred said:
Finally, it's a moot point anyway, since the US has only ever done it to three terrorists and has said it won't do it anymore -- hopefully because they have found something even more effective than waterboarding.

Phred


I am astounded but not surprised that you believe this figure.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8008623 -

Phred said:
Waterboarding is most emphatically NOT torture. The process isn't the least bit painful.

This has been testified to by the dozens of demonstrators and media reporters who have subjected themselves to it -- roughly ten times as many terrorists as the CIA actually waterboarded.

Is it unpleasant? Damned straight! Is it a convincing simulation of drowning? You bet! But torture? Not at all.

Now let's return to the topic of the thread -- Obama's claim to have the lead in delegates. If you feel inclined to continue discussing the utility and/or morality of various interrogation techniques, feel free to do so in this thread -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8008357/an/0/page/0





Phred



well I guess your presuming torture to mean roughly the definition of the US that torture must cause physical harm w/ great risk to life, organs, or body parts?

And you also distinguish between psychological and physical pain, something that I'm not sure is possible. Clearly you believe that unpleasantness in waterboarding is a psychological phenomena, and not a physical one, no? In that their is not a somatic source of the discomfort... it is the brains response to the situation that causes the discomfort?



I really don't see why torture must cause pain from a obvious physical wound or process, but perhaps you just adopted the definition of torture that seems to be the prevailing one in the US administration, or at least was in the past.

For example. I would think showing someone horrible pictures (See: Off-Topic Discussion for an idea of where I'm going with this) with disturbing sounds- perhaps at irregular intervals, while they are confined to a chair, for twelve hours a day, could rise to the level of torture, even if the period of confinement produces no physical pathology.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8008626 -

Quote:
Every one of those definitions you listed mentioned mental anguish.


And as Seuss (and demonstrators and reporters) has pointed out, waterboarding doesn't induce mental anguish, it induces panic. Not the same thing at all.

Again, the discussion is moot, since there ain't gonna be anymore officially-sanctioned waterboarding of terrorists by the US anyway.




Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8008635 -

Poll: 69 percent say technique is torture; 58 percent say U.S. shouldn't use it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/06/waterboard.poll/index.html

Personally, I would call this particular technique "torture-lite". It certainly meets the definition of torture on a mental basis. Come on. And it meets the common sense test. We may never really know how many have endured this practice since the CIA appears to have illegally destroyed tapes.

The hardcore torture we outsource to countries like Egypt and Syria with extraordinary rendition. Places where torture is considered an art form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

You know something is wrong when we are even discussing torture by the U.S. in 2008. It shows you how low President Bush has brought the reputation and morals of the country with this evil practice.

Shameful.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8008640 -

> But I don't see how you can claim it is *not* mental torture.

I would experience waterboarding to show that it isn't torture. I would not experience getting my fingernails ripped out to prove that it isn't torture. As I said earlier, I'm a bit torn on the issue.

> To myself as with Mr. Mukasey, being waterboarded would be torture.

Unless you and Mr. Mukasey have been waterboarded, I don't think either of you are in a position to offer an opinion based upon fact rather than speculation. Ask the men and woman that have voluntarily been waterboarded and get their opinion.

> You know something is wrong when we are even discussing torture by the U.S. in 2008.

Agree with you 100% on this one.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: johnm214]
    #8008680 -

johnm214, there is no possibility of rational people resolving a difference of opinion when each is discussing a different thing. "Torture" is synonymous neither with "panic" nor with "unpleasantness".

This linguistic exaggeration is so deeply ingrained a characteristic of those of the Lefty persuasion that it is no longer taken seriously by people who actually respect the written word. Despite what Noam Chomsky and his ilk would have you believe, people who exchange their labor for money are not "wage-slaves", governments to the political right of Cambodia or Cuba or Korea are not run by "fascists", a business owner who offers a job to a woman who has none isn't "exploiting" that woman, a person who disagrees with your idea of the ideal foreign policy isn't a "neocon", the Israelis are not committing "genocide" against the Palestineans, and subjecting illegal enemy combatants to unpleasant experiences isn't "torturing" them.

Is waterboarding an experience I would prefer not to undergo? Yep. So is imprisonment. So is being forced to listen to techno music.

Quote:
I would think showing someone horrible pictures (See: Off-Topic Discussion for an idea of where I'm going with this) with disturbing sounds- perhaps at irregular intervals, while they are confined to a chair, for twelve hours a day, could rise to the level of torture, even if the period of confinement produces no physical pathology.


OTD is an unpleasant experience, for sure -- especially if accompanied by shitty music like reggaeton. But torture? Nope.





Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
    #8008784 -

Phred said:
Quote:
Every one of those definitions you listed mentioned mental anguish.


waterboarding doesn't induce mental anguish, it induces panic.


Have you never experienced panic? It's mental anguish. Ask someone who has had panic attacks. I have. It's extreme mental anguish.

A mind which is spazzing and on the fritz is absolutely in anguish, and I'm certain there exists no better representation of mental anguish than a panicked mind.

Edited by Disco Cat (02/11/08 01:29 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8008809 -

Some definitions for panic from various online dictionaries are:

Terror inspired by a trifling cause or a misapprehension of danger

A sudden, overpowering terror

A sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals.

Overpowering fright

A sudden, overpowering terror, often affecting many people at once

Of, relating to, or resulting from sudden, overwhelming terror

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8008875 -

When all the UN homos are done defining down torture Milli Vanilli will be prosecuted for it. Stupid pussies. Soon it will be against the UN human rights regime to hurt someone's feelings. Oh wait, that already happened.


--------------------

Edited by zappaisgod (02/11/08 01:47 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Phred]
    #8008908 -

Phred said:
Waterboarding is painful neither physically nor mentally. It does an excellent job of simulating the sensation of drowning, but as one who has twice come within a few inches of drowning in windsurfing incidents (that would be me) I can assure you that drowning is not painful, nor is it anguishing. It's definitely not something I'd like to repeat, but torture? Not even close.

And that was when I was certain I was actually going to die. I mean not just I thought I was going to, but I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt I was a dead man. Prisoners being waterboarded know they aren't going to die -- they know from their training the experience won't be fatal.



Drowning is quite a different experience than waterboarding. Passing out, after being unable to breath, is much less tormenting than continuously gasping for breath and getting a lung full of moisture.

Try breathing through a soaked facecloth for 30 second. Then try doing it for prolonged and undetermined lengths, under force, at the mercy of a captor, whom you can't expect to be concerned over your wellbeing.
Drowning has been known to be a relatively peacful way of death since who knows when, but drowning is not waterboarding.


Stage 1 of drowning: Initial Apnea - The victim struggles to breathe. The glottis closes and, initially, prevents water from entering the lungs. If at the surface, this stage generally lasts from 20 to 60 seconds. Underwater, or further from established air source, time is diminished significantly. Water begins to enter the stomach diminishing buoyancy of the victim. Fatigue sets in due to build-up of waste chemicals in the blood resulting from lack of O2.

Stage 2: Dyspnea - glottis begins to partially relax. Water begins to enter the trachea and continues to enter the stomach. Vomiting may result from the entrance of this water. Victim grows weaker from panic/fatigue and water begins to enter the lungs. Water mixes with lung surfactant and gives the pink frothy appearance to some victims. Brain hypoxia continues.

Stage 3: Terminal Apnea - victim loses consciousness and breathing stops. Convulsions may result from lack of oxygen to the brain. Sphincter muscles may relax and the victim may urinate or defecate, or both.

Stage 4: Cardiac Arrest - Heart ceases to function productively.




In the case of actual drowning, notice that fatigue sets in within the first minute in stage 1. In waterboarding this does not happen, and the victim is held indeffinitely in the panic stage. And unlike when it occurs during training, an actual victim does not have the bonus ease of mind that comes from knowing how temporary their experience will be, or from knowing that the purpose of their waterboarding is to give them experience, rather than fray their minds, or from having their experience lay in the hands on those they trust.

Edited by Disco Cat (02/11/08 02:08 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why Not Just Call It Torture? [Re: Seuss]
    #8008952 -

Quote:
I would experience waterboarding to show that it isn't torture.


I see. So there is no difference in a training exercise wherein you are 100% certain you are not going to drown and being in the hands of an enemy and have no similar guarantee?

Sorry. Not even close.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )		 Madtowntripper 9,690 183 08/28/17 02:46 PM
by Happy Days
* Canada Can't Shake Somali Scandal..Torture-Killing EvilBastard 1,219 18 08/20/02 05:20 AM
by Innvertigo
* Waterboarding Used 266 Times on 2 Suspects Cognitive_Shift 469 2 04/20/09 04:25 AM
by Seuss
* "torture-lite" and human rights after 9/11 Edame 876 4 06/28/03 08:08 AM
by Cornholio
* Waterboarding is blessed by God Luddite 657 9 01/25/17 12:31 PM
by Morel Guy
* Break Them Down. (Torture) Psychoactive1984 1,242 14 05/15/05 12:54 PM
by Annapurna1
* Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding *DELETED*
( 1 2 all )		 Chemy 2,381 39 03/12/08 12:12 AM
by Yossarian22
* Carry on torture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
( 1 2 all )		 madscientist 2,325 30 07/30/02 11:11 AM
by toxick

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
3,569 topic views. 0 members, 461 guests and 14 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 16 queries.