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InvisiblethePatient
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Registered: 07/07/02
Posts: 3,289
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TOLERANCE
    #800687 - 08/06/02 07:13 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Tolerance - The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

It is my belief that some people are involved in your life, so that you might learn a lesson, or two, by them. Many different people means many different lessons. Personally, i believe that you can learn something from anything and everything that happens to you.

I wrote this thread to talk about Tolerance and how there are people out there to teach you it. It is in my opinion that generally i get along very well with everyone. I find myself to be harmonious with just about anyone and everyone. I dont "hate" anyone. I dont generate violent thoughts towards people. I might dislike someone for a certain reason, but the feeling is never very strong. I always see the good-side in people. Their humanity.

I am currently subsiding in an apartment with a friend and his girlfriend. I loathe this girl. I never KNEW how much i really disliked this girl until i met her and started living with her. Ive never felt this way about anyone. Shes annoying, stupid, loud, ignorant....blames others for her faults, lies, completely messy, eats all the food, snoops through my room to search for drugs....constantly tries to get me kicked out because she doesnt want "drugs" in the house. She once went on the computer and looked through the history to find the site im always looking at (which happens to be the Shroomery.org) She was reading something on it and exploded in laughter. She said "this is some funny shit..." I think she was looking at trip tips. What is wrong with this girl?.... AHHHH! I get angry just thinking about her. Its the little things, you'd understand if you knew her. Even her friends can't tolerate her for a long period of time. Only her fiancee (my friend) can.

Anyways, i believe she was put here in my life to teach me tolerance. I must learn tolerance to crucify my ego, and evolve into a higher state of consciousness. She is human, and has good qualities....somewhere. If anyone believes in Astrology like i do, it turns out that she is a Cancer. I am a Capricorn. She is my opposite (in astrology concerning the Zodiace symbols). Is it coincidence that she is absolutely nothing like me and that i loathe her, and no one else? I dont really know any other Cancer females. IMO, it isnt coincidence. She is my opposite, in Zodiac signs and in reality. I must learn tolerance, and i will suceed.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: thePatient]
    #800726 - 08/06/02 07:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I wrote a post a long time ago about the same thing... I agree that everything we experience in life has the possibility to teach us something.

Don't judge a book by it's cover...
...take it a step further and don't judge a book at all.

To treat the person you like the least as the person you love the most, and MEAN it, that is the end of the lesson.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: thePatient]
    #800759 - 08/06/02 07:42 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Definitely... Good post. I think we can learn something from every person we know and every experience we have.

Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Learning from a bad experience is the best thing you can do with it, and is a sign of high emotional intelligence I believe.


--------------------
Namaste.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: thePatient]
    #800820 - 08/06/02 08:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I see two lessons that you should have already learned; neither of which have anything to do with tolerance.
She is in your life to teach you the basics of computer security.
She is in your life to teach you to stand up for yourself.
There is no reason to tolerate defilement of your person, your privacy or your property, not under any circumstances.
Now, lessons learned, move on.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: mr freedom]
    #801338 - 08/07/02 03:17 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There is no reason to tolerate defilement of your person, your privacy or your property, not under any circumstances.

I think that is a scary statement. You may be a good man but I think that is evil, albeit masked under the cloak of self preservation. Obviously, I could be wrong.

The 4th Satanic Truth reads "We believe in extending kindness to those who are worthy; and not wasting it on ingrates".

I am not sure you know but what you say seems to side with that. True evil generally stems from frustration and the need to gratify your own Ego, not out of desire to go on killing sprees, it is more subbtle. This feeds the Ego. This gives you ideas of "mine" and that attitude of "she is defiling MY things".

Frustration and lack of patience will lead you nowhere.

Some might say extend tolerance to those who are worthy of it, and this person is not. I say, is it really tolerance if you feel you have the right to pick and choose? Do you really radiate love if you only extend it to those it is easiest to extend it to?

I am not saying this person is a great person, I am merely saying the spirit of tolerance is in tolerating everyone, not just some.

I hope you understand what I am saying...I do not think you are evil but I do think that the aforementioned qoute has a faint odor of frustraion, lack of tolerance and hate.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Anonymous

Re: TOLERANCE [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #801410 - 08/07/02 04:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Please post a complete description of the most valuable things that are in your possession. As you do not own them I would like to take possession of them for a time.

Thanks,


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #802221 - 08/07/02 12:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"I think that is a scary statement. You may be a good man but I think that is evil"

No offense taken at all. You were clearly refering to my "statement'.

I was not "cloaking" the statement under the guise of self preservation. I truly meant what I said. What was being discussed was NOT tolerance as I understand it. Tolerance, in this case at least, would be tolerating her attitudes, her sloppiness in the general use living areas. Tolerance would NOT be tolerating her abuse of your private property. I am assuming that permission was not given for either, entering the poster's room nor for using the poster's computer.

To tolerate such actions by another is not what most mean when they say tolerance. It certainly is not what I mean. I tolerate others; mostly. This usually comes in the form of keeping my mouth shut when I hear a blanket statment without a single shred of rational thought behind it; I consider this to be acting in a tolerant manner. Should this same person come into my private space, without permission, then I would certainly not keep my mouth shut.

Now, there are differing levels of "tolerance" and not all actions SHOULD be tolerated. My example stands as one such point. Now, this is an OPINION and I recognize it as such. I am not in this type of living situation and, although I could readily do so, giving a rational response to this question MUST necessarily take the living conditions into consideration. Perhaps the poster IS showing an extrordinary level of tolerance. Perhaps engaging such a person as the poster describes, again, considering the living situation, would bring the poster and his friend into conflict. If this is the case, then, the only response would be to TOLERATE the INTRUSION into the poster's personal space and subsequent tolerance of the girlfriends use of his personal property without permission.

Ps. I FIRMLY stand by my assertion that the poster should, QUICKLY, secure his computer from tampering; whatever the circumstances.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: TOLERANCE [Re: mr freedom]
    #802451 - 08/07/02 02:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with mr freedom on this one...the bible talks about 'turning the other cheek' but never states how many times. We must all decide for ourselves how far is too far, and we must learn when our beliefs are affecting us in a negative manner. By not doing anything to prevent the intrusion of his privacy, thePatient is in essence allowing this other individual to walk all over him. I'd say it's in his best interest to stand up for himself, and to put his own well being ahead of his want of tolerance.

But of course, that is just my opinion. To each his own, eh?


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Edited by Mystical_Craven (08/07/02 02:03 PM)


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: TOLERANCE [Re: ]
    #802810 - 08/07/02 05:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Please post a complete description of the most valuable things that are in your possession. As you do not own them I would like to take possession of them for a time.

Friend, I think you are over dramatising my point of view in an effort to make it seem rediculous...I never said that she should be allowed take his belongings, I just said hate was not the tone your actions should take.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: mr freedom]
    #802829 - 08/07/02 05:08 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Mr. Freedom you are obviously a smart guy and have thought before you opened your mouth and I truly respect anyone who gives consideration to their thoughts...

However, I think I am being misunderstood, and this is most likely my fault. I don't think tolerance is simply letting everyone trample all over you. He has every right to lock his room, etc. My only point was that, yes you can defend yourself and your possesions, but that my opinion is that revenge and hate was not the answer. I think the poster new that anyway, but I was just getting my point of view out.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #803194 - 08/07/02 07:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I don't understand what you are trying to say then. My second post was to clarify in what areas tolerance should be given. Namely, in all areas except that of personal space and personal possesions; assuming that permission to invade these areas was not given. Again, this is an OPINION, should one disagree with it, I have no problem with that.

You used the term "hate" at least three times to refer to my replys. I don't understan the use of this term. I don't hate. I don't abdicate hating as a solution to anything. I certainly don't see limiting ones tolerance of an individual as the same as hating them. I wasn't inciting any type of revenge either.

My replys were to define under what conditions, in my opinion, the poster should cease his tolerance. As I said, without being the poster and understanding the nature of the invasions, I couldn't possibly determine WHEN the poster should cease his tolerance.

Let me be more brutal in defining areas of when it is OK to be intolerant; perhaps that might help. I WILL NOT be tolerant of racists. I don't like or tell jokes involving race. I won't tolerate them in my presence; not from anybody, just ask my uncle.
I won't tolerate my possesions, however few they may be, to be defiled, mis-appropriated or damaged, without my express permission. I will not tolerate violent action toward women in my presence.

The flip side of the coin. I will tolerate people that insist on saving me from damnation. Given that I am a civil mannered man (thanks mom), I see no reason to be rude to another person because of their religious beliefs. I reserve the right to refute those beliefs in a forum such as this though. I will tolerate loud, obnoxious children, in almost every cricumstance; they are after all children. I will tolerate well meaning person's advice, though, I assure you, I don't ask for this advice. I will tolerate disparageing remarks as to my body build; I am a large man, though, honestly, I haven't heard many remarks in the negative.

In short, I tolerate many, many persons every day. I do it. You do it. I doubt that Mr. Mushrooms does though(kidding). We all tolerate others, thats what people in a society do, we tolerate each other. I am not, what one would define as a "touchy feely" guy. I don't love eveybody; they have'nt earned it. I do love, at least, I think, by your definition, my fellow man, my "neigbor" if you will.

I can care about these people without loving them. I can tolerate them without loving them. I don't use the words, "love" and "hate" in the same context as you do.
And I do put some sort of value judgement on others. Whether that value judgement leads me to be intolerant of them is strictly related to the civility or lack thereof, that they show me.

I know you aren't attacking me. You actually haven't said a bad thing about me. I just think that you used extremely strong words to describe what I wrote: "hate" , "revenge". I think that it is this strong language that lent itself to confusion.

One more time, just in case the poster ever returns to the topic he/she created. SECURE YOUR COMPUTER.



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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: mr freedom]
    #803200 - 08/07/02 07:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

First of all id like to express my thanks for posting your opinions on this subject. For it is obviously a personal subject to me, and I value most of your opinions on a high scale.

This usually comes in the form of keeping my mouth shut when I hear a blanket statment without a single shred of rational thought behind it; I consider this to be acting in a tolerant manner. Should this same person come into my private space, without permission, then I would certainly not keep my mouth shut.

I agree. Every time i see she has violated my privacy, a fire burns. A fire inside me. A firery inferno that i think is going to explode and ignite myself and everything around me. But then i tame that fire. I remember to turn the other cheek.

Now, there are differing levels of "tolerance" and not all actions SHOULD be tolerated.

I parly agree. I do believe you should stand up for yourself. But not in a forceful and angerful way. I believe you should tolerate everyone, in hopes that one day you wont have to. I dislike confrontation. But i did confront my friend about this. He is an understanding guy, and talked to his girlfriend/fiancee about it. Everything is settled. She shall respect my privacy, and i will go on respecting her and hers.

but that my opinion is that revenge and hate was not the answer
Again i agree. I do not believe in seeking revenge. When i think to lower myself to revenge and hate i remember what Ghandi once said. "An eye for an eye Makes the whole world Blind" - Ghandi This is a brilliant quote, and I totally agree with it.

I think the poster new that anyway, but I was just getting my point of view out.

I did, and I thank you Shroomalicious for your understanding. I also thank you Mr. Freedom for your firm opinion on the subject. I hold both of you in high respect, and value what you have to say.



--------------------
T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: mr freedom]
    #803242 - 08/07/02 08:14 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Mr Freedom, you definitly are a smart guy. I understand and agree with almost everything you say.

I WILL NOT be tolerant of racists. I don't like or tell jokes involving race. I won't tolerate them in my presence;

Most adults are racist because of some event in their life, or they were raised to believe in Racism. I agree racism is 100 percent wrong. I dont discriminate agaisnt anyone, or anything. But from this sentence: "I won't tolerate them in my presence":, you seem to treat them as if they have the Bubonic plague. You MUST remember, they are human. Which means they create error, and make mistakes. They display human qualities, despite the fact that they are ignorant. We must learn to love each other and except each other and our faults. Because we ARE all ONE MIND.

Once again, thanks for your opinion and input.


--------------------
T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: thePatient]
    #803392 - 08/07/02 09:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry for the brevity of this reply, but I'm getting ready for bed.

I think the difference between what I might tolerate and what you and shroomalicious(sp?) might tolerate stems from an underlying premise of what it means to be human. Yes, racists are human, they are homosapiens, they exibit many human traits, they are capable of speech, they are capable of walking upright, they may have the capacity for feeling, such as love and most assuredly of hate. I don't deny that I have these same emotions; I do. But, I don't choose to love indiscriminatly, I don't use my emotion of hate, at least not since I was 23 I think. I won't tell someone who they should love and I also won't tell someone who they should or should not hate. I may, if the situation is appropriate, give a rational reason why I find racism, more pointedly, racist jokes, both unappealing and ignorant. If the situation dictates, I will remove myself from those telling such jokes or if that is not an option, I will tell them that I find no humor in stero-typical racists jokes.

If it is your contention that we must accept ALL others in brotherly love I won't try to talk you out of it, this is not in and of itself a bad thing. I will point out that, while you are silently sitting there practicing tolerance and brotherly love, you are unwittingly becoming a part of the problem regarding racism.

You may think to yourself, on hearing the racist joke, these persons are just ignorant, and forgive them their ignorance. It is just this type of thing that leads to greater mis-understanding between humans. If we tolerate such rude and insensitive behavior long enough, it becomes more dramatic in it's expression or worse, there is a backlash of over-sensitivity. What comes to mind is the silliness of political correctness taken to the extremes, or, the fact that the KKK still exists in this country or the attempt by the Florida legislature to make English the "official" language.

These simple examples illustrate what the difference between our basic premise is. I hold humanity to high standards. I forgive ignorance, I am very ignorant and I choose to do something about it. Stupidity, while certainly a characteristic of humanity, is not one that I share, I have the capacity to learn and I use it. Stupidity, outside of a defective brain, is not as easily forgivable as simple ignorance and in the case of hate mongering racist behavior, should not be forgiven; not in the short term at least. If one examines the rational behind why one is a racist and comes to the conclusion that hating someone because their skin is darker, then one is acting in a most human way; one is learning and becoming less ignorant. If one determines that hating in this manner is ok, even when faced with rational reasons in direct contradiction to this premise, then one is STILL acting within the bounds of humanity but it is characterized as stupidity. It is the second action that I find intolerable. The first is acting in the truest nature of humanity, to learn from ones mistakes. The second is acting in the worst and most corrupt part of humanity, making the mistake, over and over and over; and in the most aggregous case, teaching this stupidity to their children.

I appreciate that we are all human. I understand that many have been handicapped by upbringing, lack of fundamental education and, perhaps, a compromised intellect. None of these are excuses to tolerate rude, un-civil or ignorant behavior. What you fail to include is the ability of the human to learn. When given simple directions or simple rational reasons for why something is wrong to do, even a 4 year old can understand what you are talking about and act accordingly. Given that same instruction, an adult, that now refuses to look at the information and at the very least challeng his own premises, no matter what he believed before, is not worthy of tolerence. In this case and as you stated, I would treat them as if they had the "bubonic plauge". Perhaps, if there were more humans like me, there would be more humans like you.

Truly I am still on the topic of tolerance. I just use racism or racist jokes to illistrate my point.

Ps. Glad that you could talk to your friend about his fiance without causing un-necessary conflict between you.

Pps. Did you secure your computer yet?


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: mr freedom]
    #803467 - 08/07/02 10:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I wasn't even talking about you when I said hate though. I was just saying that once you accept hate as an appropriate emotion than it will cloud your thoughts, and that is bad. I was speaking in general, although I was replying to your post, which is why their was confusion I think.

Also, I don't think self-defense is a form of hate.

My definition of tolerance is accepting and respecting all people. All people. I think the only judgement I have the right to make is that all men should be allowed to have their own opinions. This is why I am against the KKK and any persons who would infringe upon the fundamental rights of choice.

Just because I accept, respect and love them does not mean I agree and does not mean that I will watch and do nothing as they kill. However, the action I take shall not be born of fear, rather of love...love of choice and desire to aid those who cannot choose. I shall never be motivated by the hatred of my "foe" rather by the love of my "foe's" victim.

At least, that is my aim...this, too, is only my opinion.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #804639 - 08/08/02 01:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think I finaly got it. You were talking about not using an emotion, such as hate, to determine whether or not a person is deserving of tolerance. Right or wrong?

We are actually in agreement in this area. I am sure that most would agree that I make no decisions based on emotions alone. Further, I would stand up for the hater mongering KKK, as quickly as I would for some one like you, in the event their civil libertys were being violated. We just differ in our motives I think. You act out of love of your fellow man and I act out of a more pragmatic, liberty loving stance.

I still want to know if that computer is SECURE YET. Please tell me it is; I can't sleep.


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: mr freedom]
    #805189 - 08/08/02 06:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I still want to know if that computer is SECURE YET. Please tell me it is; I can't sleep.

LOL. you are a funny guy mr freedom. I wonder i'f i dont tell you, will it drive you nuts? Im just kidding. I must surrender to your plea...I have secured it. Thanks for your advice. She has to ask me before using it, and i put a user login in the beginning. Now you can sleep.


--------------------
T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: thePatient]
    #805244 - 08/08/02 06:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Ahh, that's better. My sweety told me I was getting cranky from lack of sleep and that if you didn't secure your computer soon she was gonna do it for ya. I wouldn't have let her though, she just would have pulled the power source and put it in her handbag.
Now, if everyone would just act as you have, we could get rid of the bot-kiddys for all time.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: TOLERANCE [Re: mr freedom]
    #805316 - 08/08/02 07:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think I finaly got it. You were talking about not using an emotion, such as hate, to determine whether or not a person is deserving of tolerance. Right or wrong?

We are actually in agreement in this area.

Yes, those were my points.

You act out of love of your fellow man and I act out of a more pragmatic, liberty loving stance.

I think I act out of both...even if it was someone who I felt was off base I would defend their right to have their voice.

Ya, I think we agreed from the begining and we found out exactly why electronic conversation is less than perfect.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: TOLERANCE [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #805466 - 08/08/02 08:08 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"Ya, I think we agreed from the begining and we found out exactly why electronic conversation is less than perfect. "

Yeah, give me a little piece of water, a fishing pole (it doesn't even have to have a hook on it), a doob or two, a fire and people that can think and I could exist there forever.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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