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OfflineFliquid
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Thomas's writings, brother of jesus.
    #1740337 - 07/23/03 03:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Has anyone heard about Thomas's writings about jesus and the way to find god in yourself?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Fliquid]
    #1740536 - 07/23/03 08:42 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Do a search for the 'gospel of thomas'


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Anonymous

Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Fliquid]
    #1740571 - 07/23/03 10:41 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

lol, its called the gospel of thomas.

pretty interesting stuff.. not hard to find online.

i think the council of nicea called it heresy and so its not included in the bible. or something. enter or markos would know i suppose


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OfflineSafeHaven

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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Fliquid]
    #1741055 - 07/23/03 02:21 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

A book that has alot of insights and has the book of Thomas included in it is called the Nag Hamadi Library. Very interesting. 119 true sayings of Jesus Christ.

The first saying is the one that gets me the most and of course of top of head cant remember it, about to go to lunch will go and look it up.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin








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OfflineAldous
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Fliquid]
    #1741935 - 07/23/03 07:14 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Since you're in the Netherlands, I guess you watched that program on TV about Jesus' story being in fact a pagan myth dating back to the Egyptians and Greek. They also explained gnosticism, which is where the Thomas gospel came in.
Pretty interesting stuff, it caught my attention as well, and I did a search today. The whole text is easy to find online. Check out the gospel of Mary as well.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Fliquid]
    #1743203 - 07/24/03 12:59 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

If you click on Search, and put 'Elaine Pagels' under Words to Search, and put MarkostheGnostic in for name, and 1 Month for time, you'll find recent posts on Thomas. There is a rather thick tome I've been reading called 'James, the Brother of Jesus' by Robert Eisenman. It is about the biological brother of Jesus whom the RC Church suppressed in importance - making the word 'brother' look like brethren-in-spirit, because it violated the doctrine of 'ever-virgin Mary,' whose very womb returned to a perpetually virgin condition (and all sorts of other non-human, asexual mythic stories).

Fragments of Thomas were known in the beginning of Christianity, but the full version didn't appear til 1945 at Qumran with the Nag Hammadhi scrolls. It is considered to be an early rendering of an original oral tradition, that may even pre-date the Pauline writngs that stressed the whole 'vicarious sacrifice on the cross thelology.' Thomas, who ostensibly preached in India, has a very Indian flavor to his Gospel. It is a fully-realized eschatology - the end-times are not future events, but present Reality unrealized and unrecognized in the Eternal Here and Now.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1743250 - 07/24/03 01:16 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Markos, or anyone for matter, what kind of evidence exists to validate these writing? What kind of arguments does the Church use to discredit these writings?

I am curious, I thought I remember reading about the Dead Sea Scrolls and such, and that they were additional parts of the Bible? Were they? How much more of the Bible exists that isn't included the King James version? Are these still being studied by scholars? Do any translation exist that are publically available?

Also, although it seems the RC Church claims these are not true books of the Bible, and the current version is complete, do any other Christians accept their existance and credibility? Baptist, Methodist, etc.?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1744099 - 07/24/03 11:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It was the Church Father Irenaeus, and a few others who selected which of the numerous books available would be selected and made into The Bible - the canon. If you read Pagel's book, she does a great job of explaining much of this. The Sacraments had to be the ONLY means of entering into the mystical Body of Christ, and ONLY those men (priests) with the authority of Apostolic Tradition (the about the Popes wearing a ring that belonged to St. Peter - as if the ring imparts authority) could bless the Bread and Wine. Without them, and the Sacraments - you were excommunicado - no communion with Christ - and damned to eternal Hell. People bought this stuff for many centuries. Jesus said nothing of the kind, but only clergy knew how to read for many centuries, so the masses had to believe what they were told by these ordained 'men of God.' Thomas is from ancient oral tradition. One scholar says that it shouldn't be considered the 5th Gospel - but to me, that just means that it doesn't fit in with the 4 that Ireanaeus selected (because there are 4 winds, and 4 corners of the universe!)

We CAN think for ourselves within our belief systems. I never thought I'd go from Jew to Catholic to Super-Protestant, but I protest even the Protestants at this point. I have some affinity to Orthodox Christianity, 'cause it's quite mystical, but they too fall short of Thomistic influences which speaks the loudest of all to me. Any long-time acid head with a sound background in Indian spirituality would see the Light in Thomas.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSafeHaven

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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1744356 - 07/24/03 12:48 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Any long-time acid head with a sound background in Indian spirituality would see the Light in Thomas.

HAHA! I love it. I do see your point.

I purchased the book that was thrown together called the Nag Hamadi, Do you have the same book? It was suppose to be a collection of all the books found in the same immediate vicinity around Nag Hamadi.

I came across the book believe or not watching Stigmata, excellent movie might I add, though like all movies they take a dramatic license where they please, anyways is still a good movie, which turned me onto The book of Thomas.

Those writings makes one look inside for your higher power , where I believe and have always known God to be , just glad to see it in book form.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin






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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: SafeHaven]
    #1745471 - 07/24/03 07:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, I have a small library of these collected books...you know, 'The Forgotten Books of Eden,' 'The Lost Books of the Bible,' 'The Secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics'...but two of the most scholarly are 'The Nag Hammadi Library' by James A. Robinson and 'The Gnostic Scriptures' by Bentley Layton.

The movie Stigmata did introduce the recent finding, and did make a dramatic plot for its suppression, which the Church very successfully accomplished 2 millennia ago. 'The inner projects the outer,' is a Yogic saying, and it even has to do with the type of body and corresponding personality we have. The extroverted West has led people to subscribe to the consecrated-by-priests-alone Eucharist. Well, I have received the Eucharist at the hands of a priest who turned out to be anything but Holy. I believe that 'I' have the God-given ability to consecrate my actions. I know Holiness, and I Believe that Holiness to be manifested most clearly through my understanding of Christ. It's all about Freedom - the Very Highest Freedom in human existence. Peace and love.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinekREATION1
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Fliquid]
    #1745532 - 07/24/03 08:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

haha i gues you saw that tv documantairy on tv the other night, about gnosticism and The Nag Hammadi Library, and more intresting stuff.

it was intresting.


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: kREATION1]
    #1746861 - 07/25/03 03:30 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yes i did see it on t.v., the one good time i stopped at a religious related program.  :grin:

I want to thank everyone for giving me more information.

Thank you, everyone..  :mushroom2:

I would do a search on the internet, but i don't have faith in INTERNET material. Most of times people tend to add they're own things in them.
What i would like, is a full translated copy on thomas's works.. 


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Fliquid]
    #1747318 - 07/25/03 09:24 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The "Scholars' Translation" of the Gospel of Thomas
by Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer

Quote:



These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

4 Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live.

For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."

5 Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.

For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised."]

6 His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."

7 Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

8 And he said, The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!

9 Jesus said, Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure.

10 Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."

11 Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.

The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. During the days when you ate what is dead, you made it come alive. When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"

Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."

Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."

Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."

Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."

And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."

14 Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.

After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."

16 Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to casy peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone.

17 Jesus said, "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."

18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

19 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.

If you become my disciples and pay attention to my sayings, these stones will serve you.

For there are five trees in Paradise for you; they do not change, summer or winter, and their leaves do not fall. Whoever knows them will not taste death."

20 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what Heaven's kingdom is like."

He said to them, It's like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky.

21 Mary said to Jesus, "What are your disciples like?"

He said, They are like little children living in a field that is not theirs. when the owners of the field come, they will say, "Give us back our field." They take off their clothes in front of them in order to give it back to them, and they return their field to them.

For this reason I say, if the owners of a house know that a thief is coming, they will be on guard before the thief arrives and will not let the thief break into their house (their domain) and steal their possessions.

As for you, then, be on guard against the world. Prepare yourselves with great strength, so the robbers can't find a way to get to you, for the trouble you expect will come.

Let there be among you a person who understands.

When the crop ripened, he came quickly carrying a sickle and harvested it. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!

22 Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom."

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

23 Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one from a thousand and two from ten thousand, and they will stand as a single one."

24 His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it."

He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark."

25 Jesus said, "Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like the pupil of your eye."

26 Jesus said, "You see the sliver in your friend's eye, but you don't see the timber in your own eye. When you take the timber out of your own eye, then you will see well enough to remove the sliver from your friend's eye."

27 "If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not observe the sabbath as a sabbath you will not see the Father."

28 Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.

But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways."

29 Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.

Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

30 Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one."

31 Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't cure those who know them."

32 Jesus said, "A city built on a high hill and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."

33 Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops.

After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who come and go will see its light."

34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a bind person, both of them will fall into a hole."

35 Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."

36 Jesus said, "Do not fret, from morning to evening and from evening to morning, [about your food--what you're going to eat, or about your clothing--] what you are going to wear. [You're much better than the lilies, which neither card nor spin.

As for you, when you have no garment, what will you put on? Who might add to your stature? That very one will give you your garment.]"

37 His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

38 Jesus said, "Often you have desired to hear these sayings that I am speaking to you, and you have no one else from whom to hear them. There will be days when you will seek me and you will not find me."

39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."

40 Jesus said, "A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father. Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will perish."

41 Jesus said, "Whoever has something in hand will be given more, and whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little they have."

42 Jesus said, "Be passersby."

43 His disciples said to him, "Who are you to say these things to us?"

"You don't understand who I am from what I say to you.

Rather, you have become like the Judeans, for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree."

44 Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

45 Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit.

Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."

46 Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted.

But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the kingdom and will become greater than John."

47 Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows.

And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other.

"Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil.

An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."

48 Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

49 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."

50 Jesus said,

"If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.'

If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'

If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

51 His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?"

He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

52 His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you."

He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your presence, and have spoken of the dead."

53 His disciples said to him, "is circumcision useful or not?"

He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."

54 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the poor, for to you belongs Heaven's kingdom."

55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

56 Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass, and whoever has discovered a carcass, of that person the world is not worthy."

57 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a person who has [good] seed. His enemy came during the night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The person did not let the workers pull up the weeds, but said to them, "No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them." For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be conspicuous, and will be pulled up and burned.

58 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the person who has toiled and has found life."

59 Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."

60 He saw a Samaritan carrying a lamb and going to Judea. He said to his disciples, "that person ... around the lamb." They said to him, "So that he may kill it and eat it." He said to them, "He will not eat it while it is alive, but only after he has killed it and it has become a carcass."

They said, "Otherwise he can't do it."

He said to them, "So also with you, seek for yourselves a place for rest, or you might become a carcass and be eaten."

61 Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live."

Salome said, "Who are you mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone."

Jesus said to her, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father."

"I am your disciple."

"For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness."

62 Jesus said, "I disclose my mysteries to those [who are worthy] of [my] mysteries.

Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

63 Jesus said, There was a rich person who had a great deal of money. He said, "I shall invest my money so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouses with produce, that I may lack nothing." These were the things he was thinking in his heart, but that very night he died. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!

64 Jesus said, A person was receiving guests. When he had prepared the dinner, he sent his slave to invite the guests. The slave went to the first and said to that one, "My master invites you." That one said, "Some merchants owe me money; they are coming to me tonight. I have to go and give them instructions. Please excuse me from dinner." The slave went to another and said to that one, "My master has invited you." That one said to the slave, "I have bought a house, and I have been called away for a day. I shall have no time." The slave went to another and said to that one, "My master invites you." That one said to the slave, "My friend is to be married, and I am to arrange the banquet. I shall not be able to come. Please excuse me from dinner." The slave went to another and said to that one, "My master invites you." That one said to the slave, "I have bought an estate, and I am going to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. Please excuse me." The slave returned and said to his master, "Those whom you invited to dinner have asked to be excused." The master said to his slave, "Go out on the streets and bring back whomever you find to have dinner."

Buyers and merchants [will] not enter the places of my Father.

65 He said, A [...] person owned a vineyard and rented it to some farmers, so they could work it and he could collect its crop from them. He sent his slave so the farmers would give him the vineyard's crop. They grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed him, and the slave returned and told his master. His master said, "Perhaps he didn't know them." He sent another slave, and the farmers beat that one as well. Then the master sent his son and said, "Perhaps they'll show my son some respect." Because the farmers knew that he was the heir to the vineyard, they grabbed him and killed him. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!

66 Jesus said, "Show me the stone that the builders rejected: that is the keystone."

67 Jesus said, "Those who know all, but are lacking in themselves, are utterly lacking."

68 Jesus said, "Congratulations to you when you are hated and persecuted;

and no place will be found, wherever you have been persecuted."

69 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who have been persecuted in their hearts: they are the ones who have truly come to know the Father.

Congratulations to those who go hungry, so the stomach of the one in want may be filled."

70 Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

71 Jesus said, "I will destroy [this] house, and no one will be able to build it [...]."

72 A [person said] to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me."

He said to the person, "Mister, who made me a divider?"

He turned to his disciples and said to them, "I'm not a divider, am I?"

73 Jesus said, "The crop is huge but the workers are few, so beg the harvest boss to dispatch workers to the fields."

74 He said, "Lord, there are many around the drinking trough, but there is nothing in the well."

75 Jesus said, "There are many standing at the door, but those who are alone will enter the bridal suite."

76 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a peal. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself.

So also with you, seek his treasure that is unfailing, that is enduring, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys."

77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

78 Jesus said, "Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft clothes, [like your] rulers and your powerful ones? They are dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."

79 A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."

He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'"

80 Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

81 Jesus said, "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce ."

82 Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the kingdom."

83 Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."

84 Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"

85 Jesus said, "Adam came from great power and great wealth, but he was not worthy of you. For had he been worthy, [he would] not [have tasted] death."

86 Jesus said, "[Foxes have] their dens and birds have their nests, but human beings have no place to lay down and rest."

87 Jesus said, "How miserable is the body that depends on a body, and how miserable is the soul that depends on these two."

88 Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'"

89 Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"

90 Jesus said, "Come to me, for my yoke is comfortable and my lordship is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves."

91 They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."

He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment.

92 Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.

In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them."

93 "Don't give what is holy to dogs, for they might throw them upon the manure pile. Don't throw pearls [to] pigs, or they might ... it [...]."

94 Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."

95 [Jesus said], "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back."

96 Jesus [said], The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!

97 Jesus said, The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.

98 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one.

99 The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."

He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father wants are my brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter my Father's kingdom."

100 They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."

He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

101 "Whoever does not hate [father] and mother as I do cannot be my [disciple], and whoever does [not] love [father and] mother as I do cannot be my [disciple]. For my mother [...], but my true [mother] gave me life."

102 Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."

103 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."

104 They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."

Jesus said, "What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people fast and pray."

105 Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

106 Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."

107 Jesus said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety- nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'

108 Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

109 Jesus said, The (Father's) kingdom is like a person who had a treasure hidden in his field but did not know it. And [when] he died he left it to his [son]. The son [did] not know about it either. He took over the field and sold it. The buyer went plowing, [discovered] the treasure, and began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished.

110 Jesus said, "Let one who has found the world, and has become wealthy, renounce the world."

111 Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will roll up in your presence, and whoever is living from the living one will not see death."

Does not Jesus say, "Those who have found themselves, of them the world is not worthy"?

112 Jesus said, "Damn the flesh that depends on the soul. Damn the soul that depends on the flesh."

113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

(Saying added to the original collection at a later date:) 114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."






Scholars Version translation of the Gospel of Thomas taken from *The Complete Gospels: Annotated Scholars Version.* Copyright 1992, 1994 by Polebridge Press.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Seuss]
    #1747900 - 07/25/03 01:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for posting the Gospel of Thomas. Of course, like most parabolic sayings attributed to Jesus, most people are gonna say, WTF?,' and not struggle to understand. I require the help of scholars to interpret much of these sayings, both in its wide sense, and in the specific meanings. There is so much in here about the the [psych]ology of the individual who comes to 'be in,' or to 'realize' Christ, that it seems to depart - upward - from the foundational teaching of Love found in the canonical Gospels. There is the withdrawal of projections onto others (removing the timber from one's eye before one is clear-minded enough to criticize the splinter in someone else's eye [or 'I' - someone else's perspective]). There is the controversial end part wherein the female must become as the male, in a mysterious sense, in order to be 'saved' through 'realization' (the making real in oneself) of Christ. Recognizing the Presence of God omnisciently - under a rock, or inside of wood, is a Radical departure from the purely Sacramental means of encountering Christ - the Doorway to God.

It seems that the canonical Bible was the basic course in Christianity - even typologically appealing to different mentalities, but that it is all in God's plan to have revealed something of an advanced course in Christianity, the same year (1945) that humankind detonated the first atomic bomb, called 'Trinity.' This Gospel will appeal only to those who are not fanatically attached to the selected books (I for one, wish to select my own books) of the canonical Bible.

Being a Jewish Christian, my Christianity never did develop within a church setting, but rather occurred to me through mind-set and the Entheogenic Experience. Only after-the-fact did I receive Baptism, go to churches and enter seminary. I have heard it said that 'mysticism begins where the church leaves off.' I believe this is what Thomas's Gospel means. It means to go beyond the church, which naturally angers church-people. It means living the Entheogenic Vision, moment-to-moment - not having it leave the moment one steps outside of a church building. I believe it has more to do with 'set,' than with 'setting.' The inner [state] can be perceived as 'spread out upon the Earth,' (we've all seen life, even with its horrors, as perfect in very High [Holy] states), but the average church-goer does not 'introject,' that is, absorb the High Holy state, merely from being in church and doing the rituals. The 'setting' of the church does not transform the 'Inner Man,' the Inner Man must transform the church, and the world through his/her perception of it. The world is literally transformed by one's perception of it, because we "are gods," it is written, we are co-creators of this world by how we choose to see it, how we choose to be-in-it, and how we choose to act from our state of being.

Comments, anyone?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1747940 - 07/25/03 01:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for posting the Gospel of Thomas.

I was a bit hesitant because I didn't want to violate a copyright on the translation.

Of course, like most parabolic sayings attributed to Jesus, most people are gonna say, WTF?,' and not struggle to understand.

There are many versus in the text that I still chew on.

I require the help of scholars to interpret much of these sayings, both in its wide sense, and in the specific meanings.

I have a strong eastern 'zen' background. Many of the versus are 'enlightened' in a Zen sense. I do not think scholars or anybody else can help us understand these. They describe something that is either known or is not known. Trying to understand what is known is like trying to hold water in your hands. Parts of it are there moving around while other parts are constantly being lost.

I am also afraid that a lot of meaning is lost when the interpreters try to make sense out of something. If the phrase 'what is the sound of one hand clapping' had been written in Coptic, what kind of translation back to english would we get?




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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Seuss]
    #1748089 - 07/25/03 02:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I've actually found a pretty flawless way to hold water in my hands.. I use mostly my two palms so nothing goes between my fingers, but I tighten my fingers a whole lot so no water gets through.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Seuss]
    #1748196 - 07/25/03 02:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I respect Zen in both of itsmain schools, but this Western mentality was different in that the parabolic writings were not intendedto confound the mind like a koan. the closest I come to this notion is in Mark 4:12 -

"The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing, but never understanding; otherwise they may turn and be forgiven.' Then Jesus said to them, 'Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?'" (NIV)

It seems like Jesus is being sarcastic, likening His ministry to Isaiah's (8:16) which gained some disciples, but also exposed all the rejectors of the teachings. I DO agree with you that higher realities cannot be spoken about plainly - they are ineffable, and there is no language of 'substantives' and 'transitives' that can convey the Reality of the Living God, any more than words can convey Sunyata. I think they cross-referenced Coptic with Aramaic, and probably got a pretty good take on the intention of the 'secret sayings.' Bottom line for me, is a reification of the Eternal Here and Now. I live my life in such a way as to recognize that synchronicities and responses to petitionary prayer, are not meaningless, chance events, but rather meaningful, intentional events that result from my "ego-Self axis,' (E. Edinger) - the living relationship between man and God that operates in my own life.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1748371 - 07/25/03 03:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I've actually found a pretty flawless way to hold water in my hands.. I use mostly my two palms so nothing goes between my fingers, but I tighten my fingers a whole lot so no water gets through. 




And yet if you look down at your hands as you read this the water is gone.  :smile:


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: Seuss]
    #1748402 - 07/25/03 03:50 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

do people still believe in a literal christian god? I thought everyone was relieved of that nice little fantasy when the reached puberty, kinda like santa claus?

not that this has anything to do with this discussion.


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Re: Thomas's writings, brother of jesus. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1748423 - 07/25/03 03:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I spent many years trying to decide if God existed or not... and if God did exist, was the existance a 'mother nature' sort of thing or a willful being that pulls reality like strings on a puppet.

I finally got my answer one evening while meditating (without drugs). My answer is for me and does nobody else any good. I could try to put my faith into words and preach to the world, but I would be telling lies and leading people further from their own truth. The Gospel of Thomas is the first text that I have read that really does a good job at describing...



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