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Fliquid Back from being Registered: 03/18/02 Posts: 6,953 Loc: omotive Last seen: 8 years, 8 months |
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Has anyone heard about Thomas's writings about jesus and the way to find god in yourself?
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Seuss Error: divide byzero Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 23,480 Loc: Caribbean Last seen: 1 month, 19 days |
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Do a search for the 'gospel of thomas'
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Anonymous |
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lol, its called the gospel of thomas.
pretty interesting stuff.. not hard to find online. i think the council of nicea called it heresy and so its not included in the bible. or something. enter or markos would know i suppose
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SafeHaven Registered: 10/09/02 Posts: 192 Last seen: 1 year, 5 months |
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A book that has alot of insights and has the book of Thomas included in it is called the Nag Hamadi Library. Very interesting. 119 true sayings of Jesus Christ.
The first saying is the one that gets me the most and of course of top of head cant remember it, about to go to lunch will go and look it up. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -------------------- As I sit here I ponder greater things.
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Aldous enthusiast Registered: 10/19/99 Posts: 980 Loc: inside my skull Last seen: 17 days, 6 hours |
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Since you're in the Netherlands, I guess you watched that program on TV about Jesus' story being in fact a pagan myth dating back to the Egyptians and Greek. They also explained gnosticism, which is where the Thomas gospel came in.
Pretty interesting stuff, it caught my attention as well, and I did a search today. The whole text is easy to find online. Check out the gospel of Mary as well.
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 month |
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If you click on Search, and put 'Elaine Pagels' under Words to Search, and put MarkostheGnostic in for name, and 1 Month for time, you'll find recent posts on Thomas. There is a rather thick tome I've been reading called 'James, the Brother of Jesus' by Robert Eisenman. It is about the biological brother of Jesus whom the RC Church suppressed in importance - making the word 'brother' look like brethren-in-spirit, because it violated the doctrine of 'ever-virgin Mary,' whose very womb returned to a perpetually virgin condition (and all sorts of other non-human, asexual mythic stories).
Fragments of Thomas were known in the beginning of Christianity, but the full version didn't appear til 1945 at Qumran with the Nag Hammadhi scrolls. It is considered to be an early rendering of an original oral tradition, that may even pre-date the Pauline writngs that stressed the whole 'vicarious sacrifice on the cross thelology.' Thomas, who ostensibly preached in India, has a very Indian flavor to his Gospel. It is a fully-realized eschatology - the end-times are not future events, but present Reality unrealized and unrecognized in the Eternal Here and Now. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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HagbardCeline Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher Registered: 05/10/03 Posts: 10,028 Loc: Overjoyed, at th Last seen: 1 month, 11 days |
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Markos, or anyone for matter, what kind of evidence exists to validate these writing? What kind of arguments does the Church use to discredit these writings?
I am curious, I thought I remember reading about the Dead Sea Scrolls and such, and that they were additional parts of the Bible? Were they? How much more of the Bible exists that isn't included the King James version? Are these still being studied by scholars? Do any translation exist that are publically available? Also, although it seems the RC Church claims these are not true books of the Bible, and the current version is complete, do any other Christians accept their existance and credibility? Baptist, Methodist, etc.? -------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 month |
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It was the Church Father Irenaeus, and a few others who selected which of the numerous books available would be selected and made into The Bible - the canon. If you read Pagel's book, she does a great job of explaining much of this. The Sacraments had to be the ONLY means of entering into the mystical Body of Christ, and ONLY those men (priests) with the authority of Apostolic Tradition (the about the Popes wearing a ring that belonged to St. Peter - as if the ring imparts authority) could bless the Bread and Wine. Without them, and the Sacraments - you were excommunicado - no communion with Christ - and damned to eternal Hell. People bought this stuff for many centuries. Jesus said nothing of the kind, but only clergy knew how to read for many centuries, so the masses had to believe what they were told by these ordained 'men of God.' Thomas is from ancient oral tradition. One scholar says that it shouldn't be considered the 5th Gospel - but to me, that just means that it doesn't fit in with the 4 that Ireanaeus selected (because there are 4 winds, and 4 corners of the universe!)
We CAN think for ourselves within our belief systems. I never thought I'd go from Jew to Catholic to Super-Protestant, but I protest even the Protestants at this point. I have some affinity to Orthodox Christianity, 'cause it's quite mystical, but they too fall short of Thomistic influences which speaks the loudest of all to me. Any long-time acid head with a sound background in Indian spirituality would see the Light in Thomas. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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SafeHaven Registered: 10/09/02 Posts: 192 Last seen: 1 year, 5 months |
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Any long-time acid head with a sound background in Indian spirituality would see the Light in Thomas.
HAHA! I love it. I do see your point. I purchased the book that was thrown together called the Nag Hamadi, Do you have the same book? It was suppose to be a collection of all the books found in the same immediate vicinity around Nag Hamadi. I came across the book believe or not watching Stigmata, excellent movie might I add, though like all movies they take a dramatic license where they please, anyways is still a good movie, which turned me onto The book of Thomas. Those writings makes one look inside for your higher power , where I believe and have always known God to be , just glad to see it in book form. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -------------------- As I sit here I ponder greater things.
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 month |
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Actually, I have a small library of these collected books...you know, 'The Forgotten Books of Eden,' 'The Lost Books of the Bible,' 'The Secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics'...but two of the most scholarly are 'The Nag Hammadi Library' by James A. Robinson and 'The Gnostic Scriptures' by Bentley Layton.
The movie Stigmata did introduce the recent finding, and did make a dramatic plot for its suppression, which the Church very successfully accomplished 2 millennia ago. 'The inner projects the outer,' is a Yogic saying, and it even has to do with the type of body and corresponding personality we have. The extroverted West has led people to subscribe to the consecrated-by-priests-alone Eucharist. Well, I have received the Eucharist at the hands of a priest who turned out to be anything but Holy. I believe that 'I' have the God-given ability to consecrate my actions. I know Holiness, and I Believe that Holiness to be manifested most clearly through my understanding of Christ. It's all about Freedom - the Very Highest Freedom in human existence. Peace and love. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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kREATION1 kяед Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 157 Last seen: 16 years, 9 months |
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haha i gues you saw that tv documantairy on tv the other night, about gnosticism and The Nag Hammadi Library, and more intresting stuff.
it was intresting. -------------------- "an immigrant from heaven on earth with a work visa"
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Fliquid Back from being Registered: 03/18/02 Posts: 6,953 Loc: omotive Last seen: 8 years, 8 months |
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Yes i did see it on t.v., the one good time i stopped at a religious related program.
I want to thank everyone for giving me more information. Thank you, everyone.. I would do a search on the internet, but i don't have faith in INTERNET material. Most of times people tend to add they're own things in them. What i would like, is a full translated copy on thomas's works..
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Seuss Error: divide byzero Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 23,480 Loc: Caribbean Last seen: 1 month, 19 days |
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The "Scholars' Translation" of the Gospel of Thomas
by Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer Quote: Scholars Version translation of the Gospel of Thomas taken from *The Complete Gospels: Annotated Scholars Version.* Copyright 1992, 1994 by Polebridge Press. -------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 month |
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Thanks for posting the Gospel of Thomas. Of course, like most parabolic sayings attributed to Jesus, most people are gonna say, WTF?,' and not struggle to understand. I require the help of scholars to interpret much of these sayings, both in its wide sense, and in the specific meanings. There is so much in here about the the [psych]ology of the individual who comes to 'be in,' or to 'realize' Christ, that it seems to depart - upward - from the foundational teaching of Love found in the canonical Gospels. There is the withdrawal of projections onto others (removing the timber from one's eye before one is clear-minded enough to criticize the splinter in someone else's eye [or 'I' - someone else's perspective]). There is the controversial end part wherein the female must become as the male, in a mysterious sense, in order to be 'saved' through 'realization' (the making real in oneself) of Christ. Recognizing the Presence of God omnisciently - under a rock, or inside of wood, is a Radical departure from the purely Sacramental means of encountering Christ - the Doorway to God.
It seems that the canonical Bible was the basic course in Christianity - even typologically appealing to different mentalities, but that it is all in God's plan to have revealed something of an advanced course in Christianity, the same year (1945) that humankind detonated the first atomic bomb, called 'Trinity.' This Gospel will appeal only to those who are not fanatically attached to the selected books (I for one, wish to select my own books) of the canonical Bible. Being a Jewish Christian, my Christianity never did develop within a church setting, but rather occurred to me through mind-set and the Entheogenic Experience. Only after-the-fact did I receive Baptism, go to churches and enter seminary. I have heard it said that 'mysticism begins where the church leaves off.' I believe this is what Thomas's Gospel means. It means to go beyond the church, which naturally angers church-people. It means living the Entheogenic Vision, moment-to-moment - not having it leave the moment one steps outside of a church building. I believe it has more to do with 'set,' than with 'setting.' The inner [state] can be perceived as 'spread out upon the Earth,' (we've all seen life, even with its horrors, as perfect in very High [Holy] states), but the average church-goer does not 'introject,' that is, absorb the High Holy state, merely from being in church and doing the rituals. The 'setting' of the church does not transform the 'Inner Man,' the Inner Man must transform the church, and the world through his/her perception of it. The world is literally transformed by one's perception of it, because we "are gods," it is written, we are co-creators of this world by how we choose to see it, how we choose to be-in-it, and how we choose to act from our state of being. Comments, anyone? -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Seuss Error: divide byzero Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 23,480 Loc: Caribbean Last seen: 1 month, 19 days |
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Thanks for posting the Gospel of Thomas.
I was a bit hesitant because I didn't want to violate a copyright on the translation. Of course, like most parabolic sayings attributed to Jesus, most people are gonna say, WTF?,' and not struggle to understand. There are many versus in the text that I still chew on. I require the help of scholars to interpret much of these sayings, both in its wide sense, and in the specific meanings. I have a strong eastern 'zen' background. Many of the versus are 'enlightened' in a Zen sense. I do not think scholars or anybody else can help us understand these. They describe something that is either known or is not known. Trying to understand what is known is like trying to hold water in your hands. Parts of it are there moving around while other parts are constantly being lost. I am also afraid that a lot of meaning is lost when the interpreters try to make sense out of something. If the phrase 'what is the sound of one hand clapping' had been written in Coptic, what kind of translation back to english would we get? -------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Dogomush Barbless Aryan Registered: 10/05/02 Posts: 1,286 Loc: The Canadian wes Last seen: 19 years, 26 days |
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I've actually found a pretty flawless way to hold water in my hands.. I use mostly my two palms so nothing goes between my fingers, but I tighten my fingers a whole lot so no water gets through.
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 month |
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I respect Zen in both of itsmain schools, but this Western mentality was different in that the parabolic writings were not intendedto confound the mind like a koan. the closest I come to this notion is in Mark 4:12 -
"The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing, but never understanding; otherwise they may turn and be forgiven.' Then Jesus said to them, 'Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?'" (NIV) It seems like Jesus is being sarcastic, likening His ministry to Isaiah's (8:16) which gained some disciples, but also exposed all the rejectors of the teachings. I DO agree with you that higher realities cannot be spoken about plainly - they are ineffable, and there is no language of 'substantives' and 'transitives' that can convey the Reality of the Living God, any more than words can convey Sunyata. I think they cross-referenced Coptic with Aramaic, and probably got a pretty good take on the intention of the 'secret sayings.' Bottom line for me, is a reification of the Eternal Here and Now. I live my life in such a way as to recognize that synchronicities and responses to petitionary prayer, are not meaningless, chance events, but rather meaningful, intentional events that result from my "ego-Self axis,' (E. Edinger) - the living relationship between man and God that operates in my own life. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Seuss Error: divide byzero Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 23,480 Loc: Caribbean Last seen: 1 month, 19 days |
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Quote: And yet if you look down at your hands as you read this the water is gone. -------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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atomikfunksoldier T'was born oftru Registered: 04/07/03 Posts: 1,500 Loc: a human-infested Last seen: 20 years, 6 months |
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do people still believe in a literal christian god? I thought everyone was relieved of that nice little fantasy when the reached puberty, kinda like santa claus?
not that this has anything to do with this discussion. -------------------- enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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Seuss Error: divide byzero Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 23,480 Loc: Caribbean Last seen: 1 month, 19 days |
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I spent many years trying to decide if God existed or not... and if God did exist, was the existance a 'mother nature' sort of thing or a willful being that pulls reality like strings on a puppet.
I finally got my answer one evening while meditating (without drugs). My answer is for me and does nobody else any good. I could try to put my faith into words and preach to the world, but I would be telling lies and leading people further from their own truth. The Gospel of Thomas is the first text that I have read that really does a good job at describing... -------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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