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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Should Tolerance be given...
    #4075154 - 04/20/05 01:24 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

1) To intolerant religions/beliefs?

I dunno, the post about the new pope and his intolerant views, made me wonder why we should provide tolerance to an intolerant view. Within the confines of American law, religious tolerance is provided to all religions, even so far as to hate groups and to other groups, where ultimately no good will come as a result of their hate filled message, and disdain for certain groups of people; not only in way of their race, but also in way of their beliefs.

2) So, my main question is, what good will come as a result of an organized message filled with intolerance?

3) Why should they be tolerated, yet they don't choose to uphold the same standard?

Assuming they had the power to do so, most groups on the extremist end, wouldn't set idly by, and act on their beliefs, some go so far as to acting on them through manipulation of law, destroying the great notion of true seperation of church and state. True, their may be legitimate reasons provided as to certain actions which could be inspired be seen as being motivated by one's religion, yet typically objectivity is frowned upon, and subjectivity of an individuals beliefs is utilized. Which brings another question up;

4) Is objective law possible in the higher offices of government (in terms of it being for the purpose that it serves as a law, without being motivated for an individuals/organizations purposes, more so oriented to serve those for who it was/is being made ~the people that the government serves)?

Edit:
Just added numbers denoting the questions if anyone wants to give their take on it, figured it'd be easier.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/20/05 05:01 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4075216 - 04/20/05 01:35 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The thing is, their intolerance only matters to the people who let it matter. To take somethings power over you away from it , all you have to do is stop giving yours away to it. Take it back and use it to build your world around what matters to you.

If someone wants to feel like a bad evil sinner under the influence of Satan on the road to hell for being gay because the church says they are then.................whose fault is that? The churches or the one that gave their power away to the church?

If you are in a state of tolerance you are burning energy and giving it away. Acceptance is the word to use to be applied to this situation. They have a right to power trip and people have a right to be tripped on if they choose and you have a right to do your own thing with your own power.

Just offering another perspective on it here. :wink:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4075261 - 04/20/05 01:43 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The thing is... it's not that simple, as the church is has a major political influence. (In respects to your example, as well as reality)

Regardless of your willingness to give power in way of being looked down upon to another party, isn't so much the issue as is power and influence of said organization directly affecting other's lifes without their choice. Abortion in the past, drug use in the past and currently, stem-cell research, gay marriages, etc, etc, etc the list could go on for some time, but I brought up some of the more common ones.... (None of these issues directly affect me, nor will they; but it affects others, so I've no real stake in justifying any of them with the exception of a person's right to pursue what they want)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/20/05 01:50 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4075313 - 04/20/05 01:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I thought you might go there next because I have too at times. Acceptance and remembering my power takes me out of it again.

Speak your voice when you can where you can because that is being n your power and right to do so.

There are many places where the Catholic church doesn't have a hold in this world. We have the power to live in them.

We have the power to not get pregnant to not have to deal with the abortion issue, to live and love who we love with or without a legal contract and stem cell research continues on in this world anyway. I did catch the new Pop commenting on that in the news today and got temporarily miffed.

I'd rather energize those that are going on with progress instead of energizing those holding it back with my thoughts.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4075365 - 04/20/05 02:16 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Indeed!! I'm merely suggesting that tolerance begets tolerance, and that fucking with the law the way certain religious organizations do, should beget politics fucking with them :smile:

As the bible teaches an eye for an eye...

http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/31-0016.htm
http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/Biblequestions/eyeforeye.htm
without the justification of a few folks interpretations of it not being a contradiction... as the Bible contains no contradictions, it explains itself away.

Book of common sense 3,114:2 "Ye who fucketh with other lives, and manipulates, enforces and he whoth insisteth to be a slayer of freedom, shall recieve the same likeness onto ye old organization of blasphemy and contradictionethingism"

:wink: The Bible, destroying and contradicting itself one day at a time.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/20/05 02:23 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4075423 - 04/20/05 02:30 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:rotfl:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4075518 - 04/20/05 03:10 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:rotfl:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI read this posted by Annapurna1.... and found... this.

Quote:

Wikipedia found out that the new pope is an intolerant bastard:
Some see Benedict as a traditionalist, others as merely orthodox, but almost all observers agree that he is a staunch defender of the Church. He is an opponent of homosexuality, same-sex marriage, euthanasia, and abortion and has spoken about the unique role of the Catholic Church in salvation and has called all other Christian churches and ecclesial communities "deficient." As a Cardinal, he wrote Truth and Tolerance, a book in which he denounces the use of tolerance as an excuse to distort the truth.

[...] In a pre-conclave Mass in St. Peter's Basilica, he warned, "We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as definitive and has as its highest value one's own ego and one's own desires."





As opposed to doing god's desires, as god lives our lives for us?

To all you Catholics... please be tolerant to those tolerant of your views, even under the leadership of this madman with an egotistical view as to his beliefs absolution.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlinecrackwhorebob
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4075811 - 04/20/05 05:54 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Religion and law should be seperated but i am not entirely opposed to the bible being intertwined into our government to a certain degree. But Catholicism is a real joke it shouldn't be a associated with the bible. I don't bolster intolerance. I just choose to pick and choose and not embrace the majorities beliefs. The bible is beautiful to a certain level like any holy book. Its for the positive reinforcement of society so it can not be looked upon as such a great evil because it is been misconstrued by the foolish.


--------------------
I am the American dream.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: crackwhorebob]
    #4077289 - 04/20/05 04:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

We could apply the same notion to many things in light of their application to the reinforcment of social order.... Nazism, Fascism, Racism, etc... all doctrines of an intolerant nature, yet they act as wonderful social glues, and also have a lot of good come out of them, despite their bullshit premise....

I don't choose to believe that. The major point of this thread, was that Religion should be completely and utterly removed from politics, even references in terms of court rooms (swearing an oath on the bible, is downright offensive to someone who doesn't wish to swear to speak the truth to the god associated with the doctrine). Or of course, we could hold religions accountable legally as to their belief schematic, in either case, a hell of a lot less influence would be achieved.

Actually, if anything, Catholicism, should be among the most prominant religions associated with the Bible as it's name implies, something of the degree that it's a unified whole to the Christian belief.... and with it having the greatest population/majority of Christians, it most certainly is primary representation of Christian theology.

http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Catholic_Means.asp

Misconstrued by the foolish? :lol: Nah, hardly.... I'm well aware of what's happening, as are those that are promoting their fascist rendition of god's word.... It's those that accept the word blindly without looking at the similar decrees made through god's vessels throughout history, and placing blind faith into the order that are foolish.

I typically wouldn't hold a beliefs past against it, especially if it chooses to grow with the times.... but the belief is rooted in the far past, and uses its past to assert it's truth, so... figure I'll look to it's past to assert how manipulative the vessels are through organized religion.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4077590 - 04/20/05 05:13 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

From a moralist point of view, tolerance is good only to some limit, so while they impose their idea of morality on you, you impose your idea of tolerance on them. I think both of you should step back


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (04/20/05 05:14 PM)


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4077932 - 04/20/05 06:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:shrug: It was started well before I was alive...  my stepping back won't stop them from playing with politics, nor will my current position of bitching about the double standard employed. :tongue:

However, their stepping back would make a world of difference. (literally)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4077960 - 04/20/05 06:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

not you you, but you as in your side and their side


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4077969 - 04/20/05 06:48 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:shrug: What side? I'm taking the side that their shouldn't be sides and that their should be pure objectivity (as objective as possible anyway) without religious motivation in terms of the law.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4080607 - 04/21/05 11:48 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

But if your taking the side that their shouldnt be sides then you've just contradticed your cause by taking a  side thats against sides in the first place :lol:  :wink:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4080988 - 04/21/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What side? I'm taking the side that their shouldn't be sides and that their should be pure objectivity (as objective as possible anyway) without religious motivation in terms of the law.




Your contradictions do not slide by unnoticed. How can a relativist who does not accept the existence of absolute truth speak of pure objectivity? You are a deceiver.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: egghead1]
    #4081536 - 04/21/05 04:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

pfffft... I suppose you all enjoy being neutral fence sitters, in which case I shouldn't be typing at all... nor should any of you :tongue:.

Objectivity isn't truly a side, as it isn't motivated by anything, we choose to take sides on motivations that fit, and further our circumstances; my objectivity in this situation in no way helps me.

Neutral objectivity if you will :tongue:

I'm a deciever as you are? How,by proposing the notion of an absolute truth, that isn't known, yet thought, and taught to be known by virtue of people with "absolute" manipulative purposes, inclinations, and absolute intolerance to those that do not support their beliefs? I admit it then, if that's the implication.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: egghead1]
    #4081540 - 04/21/05 04:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

A side against sides? I think not, it's a side for all sides, which doesn't take a side in way of it's purpose.... it allows the expression of all sides regardless of their intent for purposes of promoting tolerance, and further a purpose of unification, and social order on the basis of it's objective stance promoting social welfare; I've no problem with religion, nor intolerant views provided they aren't playing around with the law, and are abstaining from using influence in a manner not befitting such an organization.

However, if they wish to toy and fuck with the law, they should be held in the same right, for an "eye for an eye" is part of their belief.... and they most certainly wouldn't like that.... or of course we could use the scapegoat clause to take pressure off of them "turn the other cheek" in which case they still are subjected to their flawed belief for not espousing tolerance to others in way of their teachings.... as they aren't turning the other cheek to the relativists, and those that don't accept their bunk premise for absolution that is absolutely fallacious.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/21/05 04:39 PM)


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4083025 - 04/21/05 11:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Oops  :grin:


Edited by shroomydan (04/22/05 08:39 AM)


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4083039 - 04/21/05 11:23 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You seem to be saying that people who believe in God and have objective standards by which they judge morality, people who practice religion, should not be allowed to influence the law, and that only the God-less are qualified to govern.

You want freedom for yourself, and tolerance from others, yet you wish to deny the right of self governance to those who see the world differently than you do. Meanwhile you act as if you are somehow being oppressed and make veiled threats with your 'eye for an eye' talk. Your position is contradictory, but of course you don't care; you do not believe in truth, so you simply make up your story as you go along.

BTW,
You really should try to study scripture a little bit before quoting it, because you are making yourself look foolish. The Ancient Jewish law from Deuteronomy, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", was written to limit revenge. Under this law if somebody were to poke your eye out, you would not be allowed to kill that person. The revenge which was permitted could be no greater than the crime being avenged. It was setting a top limit, not a bottom limit. A person who was wronged could chose to exact no revenge and still be within the law.

That's ancient Jewish Law. Christians follow the words of Christ, the fulfillment of the Law.

Quote:

You have heard that it was said, ?Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.?[a] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.


The Gospel According to Matthew Chapter 5.


So, whatever man. You cannot win this argument on a philosophical basis, so you quote scripture and misinterpret it's meaning in a futile attempt to bolster your self-contradicting argument. You can misrepresent the Word of God and then attack your own misrepresentation, but it really is pointless. The struggle is in your own head and heart. You have given up hope. I hope you find your hope again.

Good night
Psychoactive1984


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Should Tolerance be given... [Re: shroomydan]
    #4083113 - 04/21/05 11:49 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Was it that important that you needed to reiterate it twice? (damn forums, hate when it double/triple/quadruple posts :tongue:)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
1) You seem to be saying that people who believe in God and have objective standards by which they judge morality, people who practice religion, should not be allowed to influence the law, and that only the God-less are qualified to govern.

2) You want freedom for yourself, and tolerance from others, yet you wish to deny the right of self governance to those who see the world differently than you do. Meanwhile you act as if you are somehow being oppressed and make veiled threats with your 'eye for an eye' talk. Your position is contradictory, but of course you don't care; you do not believe in truth, so you simply make up your story as you go along.

BTW,
3) You really should try to study scripture a little bit before quoting it, because you are making yourself look foolish. The Ancient Jewish law from Deuteronomy, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", was written to limit revenge. Under this law if somebody were to poke your eye out, you would not be allowed to kill that person. The revenge which was permitted could be no greater than the crime being avenged.  It was setting a top limit, not a bottom limit. A person who was wronged could chose to exact no revenge and still be within the law.

That's ancient Jewish Law. Christians follow the words of Christ, the fulfillment of the Law.

Quote:

You have heard that it was said, ?Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.?[a] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.


The Gospel According to Matthew Chapter 5.


4) So, whatever man. You cannot win this argument on a philosophical basis, so you quote scripture and misinterpret it's meaning in a futile attempt to bolster your self-contradicting argument. You can misrepresent the Word of God and then attack your own misrepresentation, but it really is pointless. The struggle is in your own head and heart. You have given up hope. I hope you find your hope again.

Good night
Psychoactive1984




1) .... Ok... that's the last thing that I'm suggesting. They can have as much morality as they please, from whatever god they choose... however, their god shouldn't be allowed to interfere in others lives, as their are many gods, and many beliefs, to make laws on the basis of one, is anything but objective; it isn't tolerant, and it's basis isn't inclusive of the democracy that we suggest that we take place in. I'm suggesting that those who place their personal subjective beliefs ahead of objective governing, and ahead of other's beliefs shouldn't be allowed to govern. It matters not what denomination, nor what god you follow, however, if you are in a position of power and you have the direct ability to affect the masses... I'd much rather have someone who's purpose is based solely on objective rule; that is that their primary purpose in establishing, and furthering laws,  based on what is beneficial to everyone, and not those that share their version of black and white morality. Please don't put words in my mouth, unless you'd like me to put shit in yours. (essentially that's what you're doing by making your flawed assertions, and debasing yourself to attacks on my character)

2) I stated that I've nothing to gain, nor am I repressed in any form in accordance with religious decisions in respect to the law. Give me a truth buddy... please, I've been waiting for years to find absolution, and I doubt you'll give me anything but a rehased regurgatation of contradiction. I don't make up the story as I go along... I live, and attempt to live through rationality... sorry, I'll try to follow your story that was made up a few thousand years ago, and go along like a lot of people do, and try to think for myself as little as possible.

3) Read the links that I posted, read what I suggested in terms of justification of beliefs through contradicion. BTW, this is well in line with "an eye for an eye". I'm simply suggesting that politicians fuck with religions to the extent that religions fuck with politics (only to the major sects that actually meddle in legal affairs) and stop to the point that they have vastly impacted said religion to the degree it has impacted law... you shouldn't feel wrong to that notion, as it's justified through the bible (note: not my real feelings, but for example purposes, it'd be more then justifiable through the logic you choose to employ). The bible can be interpreted in so many ways, why their are so many sects... their is no "true" way to look at it, hence the reasoning for so much differentation.... unless you wish to suggest otherwise; either way your entitled to your fascism.

---
You've no idea of my religious background, nor my knowledge, we can get into a large discussion on theology, or you can simply look at some of my older posts. I've been through various sects, (by way of the belief being sold to my parents, who further attempted to sell the notion to me) the worse being Jehova's Witnesses, who are hard core OG's when it comes to biblical interpretation... why, they are so confident in their assertions of their belief.... that they call it "the truth", and they'll even come right up to your door!

I'm a little more versed in the Bible then you might choose to believe.

4) I don't expect to win, nor do I post to win. Stop asserting your beliefs as to why I post here to begin with. By way of your suggestion, I can easily make the assumption that you are attempting to win.... in which case this is all but futile, as that is the last thing I'm attempting to do.

See 3 in regards to interpreting the bible... absolution is where you believe it to be. I have great hope, else I wouldn't continue to do this, just because your absolution isn't applicable to myself, (hence being anything but absolute) doesn't mean that I've no reason to be here.... and more so doesn't mean that I've given up hope. Please don't allow this to dwelve into petty personal attacks, and misrepresentations of character as you have nothing better to argue about, with the exception of your dogma. Please, give me a site that has the "true" interpretation of god, and why it's any better then my interpretation..... If this is your faith, I apologize for macking a mockery of it... but it's done much in the way of doing that to itself.

I hope you find a greater sense of rationality again, and an open mind, , and an open heart to others beliefs and interpretations; without bringing in your absolute truth, that you fail to share... as perhaps, just perhaps, it's a bit more circumspect to the nature of reality then you might choose to accept (just suggesting that so hopefully you'll share it :tongue:). As I'm not attempting to taint, nor misconstrue anything that already hasn't been tainted and misconstrued by those that preach it.

Edit:
Cleared up some of my remarks that were uncalled for. :smile:
Don't worry, still some stuff in their that isn't called for; I'd prefer to have a civil discussion with you as getting personal doesn't do you or I any good.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/22/05 01:57 AM)


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