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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience
    #4801204 - 10/14/05 12:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Most of us have here have had a mystical experience of some sort. One where you felt like you had tapped into some divine pipeline.

What's up with that?

I've had such experiences and I've been able to withhold judgement and not attribute any particular meaning to them (though that's not always the case during the experience). It's not that I reject the paranormal... it's that I don't trust my senses and am critical of my ability to recognize patterns (as I can find patterns in just about anything - via mental projection in most cases).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Sclorch]
    #4801361 - 10/14/05 01:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

for me the mystical experiernce is proof of the divine regardless of what interpretation you assign to it (although of course the word divine is an interpretation in of itself). but my point is that it doesn't matter what the causes are, merely the fact such as experience is possible it in itself divine.


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Offlineyewhew
Dead in Eternity

Registered: 01/13/04
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Sclorch]
    #4801408 - 10/14/05 01:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting topic.

A "mystical" experience during a trip for me is the feeling that this present experience is "special" in a sense, when compared to memories of previous experiences of the same person that I embody. It's a realization of a parallel nature to reality that makes this experience feel mystical.

My personal theories suggest that everything exists all of the time. If this is true then every experience is interesting for the fact that it exists, as it is being experienced in the present. So, to me, a mystical experience is a realization, a feeling, an objective look at my person, and the reality that makes up my experiential domain. It's a new, extremely spiritual realization of self and surrounding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Deviate]
    #4801470 - 10/14/05 01:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Basically what a 'mystical' experience is, is any for which you have no previous reference point. It has no bearing on anything that has come before. Because of it's newness or strangeness, it is immediately categorized as something special. This is nothing more than the typical 'argument from ignorance' wherein an unknown is 'filled in' with something supernatural.

The litmus test is quite simple. Did you merely go "Wow!" or was your life changed in a positive way as a direct result of said experience?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Sclorch]
    #4801481 - 10/14/05 01:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Most of us have here have had a mystical experience of some sort. One where you felt like you had tapped into some divine pipeline.

What's up with that?




that sounds like an objective interpretation- 'this is happening, and i have this feeling, it must be real'

the dividing line between mysticism and objectivity seems to be social construction- if both of us see the same light-effect, then it's somehow an objective fact. but what if we both see the same god return to the heavens...

i wonder, is the mind itself social within itself? what criterion makes something social (besides the arbitrary one of 'this body' talks with 'that body')?

things like telepathy between two trippers, which the skeptic views as self-delusion. yet what if the telepath views the skeptic as self-delusional? closed box.

in the words of another poster:
"There are billions of universes inside the Absolutum. There are thought to be more Absolutums outside of our own, but that is unknown."


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4801504 - 10/14/05 01:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

yet what if the telepath views the skeptic as self-delusional?

Then he is compounding his error. I love playing poker with telepaths as they are easier to beat than skeptics.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
moooooooosh
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Registered: 04/24/05
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4801524 - 10/14/05 01:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I was in my room tripping on a few tabs of acid with my kitty. i was looking at her, and trying to see if i could control my hallucanations. right as i felt as if i was "changing her form" she jumped up and stared right at me(shes blind and was sleeping) and let out this meow as if i was killing her.

it freaked the hell out of me, it felt like i was tapping into something i shouldnt be(changing physical form)


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: mushboy]
    #4801558 - 10/14/05 01:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Time for yet another Swami Challenge wherein the tripper attempts to wake his pet up at a precise moment with no physical cues. This will be more easy money.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Swami]
    #4801571 - 10/14/05 01:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Basically what a 'mystical' experience is, is any for which you have no previous reference point. It has no bearing on anything that has come before. Because of it's newness or strangeness, it is immediately categorized as something special. This is nothing more than the typical 'argument from ignorance' wherein an unknown is 'filled in' with something supernatural.



Actually, many of my mystical experiences involved a sort of synchronicity.
And you know me, I'm a damn rational person... I make no judgement - that should be clear - but the fact that I can't just write off some of these experiences to a mental projection (or whatever) is a slight hangup for me. 

Quote:

The litmus test is quite simple. Did you merely go "Wow!" or was your life changed in a positive way as a direct result of said experience?



It has been a mix of both, actually.  But the "Wow!" experiences are typically written off.
And I've had quite a few of these experiences without drugs (very few drug-free "Wow!" experiences :tongue2:).



I'm not necessarily looking for an answer or an explanation (I'll listen to them all though)...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Sclorch]
    #4801674 - 10/14/05 01:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Would it not be weird with billions of people and millions of small events occurring daily if synchronicity did not occasionally occur?

Case in point: if you were alone in the arctic tundra, do you still think synchronous events would occur as frequently, if ever?

It is hard to comment in greater depth without an example.


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Sclorch]
    #4801703 - 10/14/05 02:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Basically what a 'mystical' experience is, is any for which you have no previous reference point. It has no bearing on anything that has come before. Because of it's newness or strangeness, it is immediately categorized as something special. This is nothing more than the typical 'argument from ignorance' wherein an unknown is 'filled in' with something supernatural.

The litmus test is quite simple. Did you merely go "Wow!" or was your life changed in a positive way as a direct result of said experience?


well swami, some of my experiences certainly passed the litmus test with flying colors while others failed but i wanted to point out that an experience with no reference point can certainly be beneficial because it gives you a new understanding of your old reference point. for example you may realize "oh, i don't HAVE to categorize reality in that particular way, that's just how i categorized it." however my truly mystical experiences were not merely arbitrary new ways of looking at things, but experiences in which i understood the relationship between my former self awareness and my new self awareness.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Sclorch]
    #4801874 - 10/14/05 02:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The way I see it, there are different kinds of truths. There's factual truth and there's pragmatic truth. A pragmatic truth doesn't necessarily have to be objectively true, as long as it helps us in some way to better ourselves. I don't know for a fact that we are all one, but believing that we are tends to help me be a more compassionate, loving person, so it holds truth for me. If there's one thing psychedelics do show us more than anything, it's the secrets of our inner psyche. Now, the hidden depths of our mind may or may not be able to teach us facts about the outside world, but if it helps us in our interaction with that outside world, then that lends it some credibility, IMO.


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Sclorch]
    #4805702 - 10/15/05 01:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

isn't a mystical experience one that is beyond 'ordinary' understanding, that is, not apparent to the senses? it has to be non obvious to intelligence or rational thought. since this is the case, can you really approach it in a rational way? whenever you have a new experience, or as swami put it, without a reference point, would you always call it mystical? I think there's something a little more that makes it mystical, doesn't it? I can eat something totally new and not call it mystical. I can have a trip on the mushrooms at two different times and one can be mystical, and the other could just be 'strange'


"Did you merely go "Wow!" or was your life changed in a positive way as a direct result of said experience? "

cant something make you go "wow" and still have a positive inpact on your life?


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Sclorch]
    #4806533 - 10/15/05 07:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

beauty is subjective
the most mystical experience is to be commpletely immersed in beauty
how do you make that objective
why even try?


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Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4808508 - 10/15/05 08:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think a mystical experiance isn't just something that blows your mind as entirely new and unknown, whereas it could be categorized into the "unexplainable-and-therefore-divine". Instead, a mystical experiance is one that TIES TOGETHER your past, present, and future experiance. As was said above, a syncronicity is realized, not as something new, but as something that has always been there.

Even in the arctic tundra, each snowflake and breeze contains infinite syncronized events...

If you want some really interesting food-for-thought regarding the objectivity of mystical experiances, I suggest you read "DMT: the spirit molecule" by Dr. Richard Strasseman. During his human DMT experiments he describes how shocked he was at how similar all of the subjects' experiances were to each other, ESPECIALLY in regard to entity contact. Towards the end he really started to wonder if these people were actually travelling to a different, objective, real dimension.


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OfflineLazyCrash
I like gas.
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Swami]
    #4810432 - 10/16/05 12:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
yet what if the telepath views the skeptic as self-delusional?

Then he is compounding his error. I love playing poker with telepaths as they are easier to beat than skeptics.




Do you all introduce yourselves as telepaths or skeptics first? How do you tell a telepath from a skeptic at a poker table?

Why are they easier to beat?

I play poker a lot and this comment just seemed weird to me.


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:mallow:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: LazyCrash]
    #4810462 - 10/16/05 12:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

As telepathy does not exist, anyone relying on such a 'power' will not be fully utilizing logic, probability and pattern recognition - therefore easy to beat.

How does on recognize your opponent is not playing with a 'full deck'? I could write a book on that. If you play a lot of poker, it is obvious when someone is playing against the odds and they will sometimes declare, "I don't care about math, I play by intuition," or "I knew you caught the flush!" they declare even while calling you with their weaker hand. :lol:


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: LazyCrash]
    #4810573 - 10/16/05 01:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I witnessed first hand Swami beating the poker machines in Las Vegas by playing the odds. He came away with enough profit from a nickel machine to buy lunch and pay for tips for both my drinks and his and still have enough money left over to buy a used porno magazine. I would have been in awe if I hadn't got a noontime beer buzz and then spilled a Starbuck's on my crotch.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4810585 - 10/16/05 01:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Pros visits me whenever he needs cash and to meet Mescalito out in the desert...  :stoned:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: The Objective Existence of the Mystical Experience [Re: Swami]
    #4812313 - 10/16/05 09:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

the mystical experience is an-overstimulation of the amygdala by dopamine which results in applying deep significance to nearly every thing and/or idea one percieves. it is beautiful biochemistry.


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