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OfflineSource
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Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering?
    #1762653 - 07/30/03 12:21 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I need your help sorting this one out.

Why did the ultimate ground of consciousness stir in the beginning? Why did it leave nirvana to begin with? Why did the Monad become the Diad? Why did God say, 'I AM'? Why did it dream this universe and jump in? What is it running from? What's wrong with the base floor of consciousness that prompted God to try to escape it into the myriad forms of existence? Is God desperately trying to forget what it is/isn't? Is God bored? Lonely (all one = alone)?

The only reason the absolute ground of awareness would 'do' anything is if the absolute ground state itself was in some way unsatisfactory or imperfect. The very fact of existence itself seems to imply the suffering of God. If the being-ness of God were perfect, there would be no desire, there would be no universe, there would only be God absorbed in its own awareness for all timeless eternity.

This full realization (when you feel it in your bones) creates a deep sense of "Cosmic Horror" that in my case was so intense that I gladly would have died if I thought that it wouldn't have just brought me face to face with it. There is no escape and it is infinitely worse than any hell in Dante's inferno.

The only way to redeem God is to affirm that God never moved. That there is no universe. There is no Diad, no 'I AM', no adventuring souls, no heaven and hell, no earth, no angels and demons. Not even the illusions of such. There is nothing but God.

So it seems the choice then is to beleive in existence and/or the illusions of existence and live with the Cosmic Horror that necessarily comes with it or beleive that nothing exists and redeem God.



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1762708 - 07/30/03 12:36 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

You are thinking in terms of time and categories about something which exists beyond these constraints. 

The only way to redeem God is to affirm that God never moved. That there is no universe. There is no Diad, no 'I AM', no adventuring souls, no heaven and hell, no earth, no angels and demons. Not even the illusions of such. There is nothing but God.

You are on the correct path.  What is God without anything else?  By 'without anything else', I mean 'without duality'.  Perhaps, 'What is reality without duality?' is a better answer.

So it seems the choice then is to beleive in existence and/or the illusions of existence

Why believe anything?  Simply be.

... and if you simply be, without illusion, what are you?  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1762718 - 07/30/03 12:38 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

If the being-ness of God were perfect, there would be no desire, there would be no universe, there would only be God absorbed in its own awareness for all timeless eternity.

Your post made me get a strange sensation in my head, because I was trying to imagine what it would be like if nothing at all existed, but I couldn't. That makes my brain hurt.

I figure that God (my definition being Everything) is already perfect but it's still discovering itself, seeing what it's capable of, and that's the reason for all this. The Infiniteness is still like a child which keeps learning and experiencing to see how vast Infinity really is. It might make more sense if we threw aside our idea of linear time when we ask "why", since without a beginning, Infinity (by its definition) had to have always existed. I see it as a fractal/hologram that is always changing shape and properties, yet is always infinite. So I don't think God is/was suffering, though it does suffer through the minds of some of its creations (if you get my drift). I think God is having a lot of fun.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1762944 - 07/30/03 01:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe there isn't a God, Source.

Don't ever forget that possibility.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1763055 - 07/30/03 02:37 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Max Headroom, your idea of God is the most beautiful that my mind has yet to comprehend. That God is in the eternal process of discovering the depths of it's own existence is a conception that has brought me comfort. Though, because it is still a conception, it is subject to the cosmic horror problem of "Why?" (i.e. why does God do it, why does God prefer fun?).

Maybe Seuss's remark is the crux of the issue. That to try to comprehend the first cause is impossible (I should know that by now!).

"Why believe anything? Simply be."

Accept no substitue, right? That's really what I meant as the second option (beleive that nothing exists), to beleive that nothing exists is to beleive in nothing (not even God, ala Strumpling!).

So do you think the 'Cosmic Horror' (I hope you all know what I mean by that) that comes directly from beleiving in existence may be what makes us afraid to "simply be, without illusion", since the fear is the question of what to "simply be" means.

Let me try to be more eloquent: Does belief in existence make us afraid to relinquish it? A sort of self made prison?

Also, it has become clear to me that what I call the "Cosmic Horror" is actuall the feeling of ego in it's most raw form.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1763104 - 07/30/03 02:53 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"Max Headroom, your idea of God is the most beautiful that my mind has yet to comprehend."

Unfortunately the word "God" doesn't mean "Everything" to most people - I think labeling "The Everything" as "God" is not a good thing to do - in my opinion, the word "God" shouldn't have propogated itself into so many different realms.. its like the word "Fuck" now or something


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OfflineSource
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1763125 - 07/30/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I agree Strumpling. But saying 'the universe', or 'everything' or 'nothing'...is just too clumsy sounding and implies something too specific. Maybe the fact that 'God' has become almost meaningless because it implies so many differing ideas is an advantage? People can't assume what you mean exactly when you use it.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1763146 - 07/30/03 03:12 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

The Universe started as an idea. Just a basic thought floating through space, an intention. This idea was pure energy, in the form of an inverting yet outwards perpetual spiral. Creation. It's goal was to evolve eternally. After some aeons, it created itself a vast spiritual universe, energy.. beings.. and for many trillions of our years lived in harmony as such.

Eventually, evolution reached critical mass, and the experiences gained through interaction with the spiritual energies could no longer teach any new wisdom. To further evolution of all-that-is, the original creation created a new universe parallel to the spiritual, a physical universe. Into this it divided itself..just as it had done in the spiritual universe. Stars of burning energy, pure as creation, linking through the dimensions and acting as guardians of solar realms. Transmitters of multidimensional light and energy. Creation.

The planets, vast and varied, were created all across the universe. Life was formed on all that could support it. This was many. Thus began the reign of physical experience...considered to be the ultimate in experience, because of it's plunge into the world of illusions, ignorance, without any knowledge of all-that-is. If you could go from the enlightened eternal bliss of the spirit world and enter temporary incarnations into physical realm to experience material life, much experience could be gained, and the cycle of evolution is eternal and complete.

So according to this method of development, there is nothing imperfect about the original creation, as it continually sought to evolve through experience. It acknowledged its imperfection by striving for perfection.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1763176 - 07/30/03 03:21 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

you can't label god or the universe with purely human qualities. i mean you can but you come up with things like "is god suffering?"

instead of applying human concepts to universal patterns try and figure out the universal patterns and apply them to human concepts.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1763189 - 07/30/03 03:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks Shroomism, that's awesome. Sort of fits with the three leveled creation described by Yogananda (causal,astral,physical).

But isn't it still subject to the question: 'Why?'. Why was there an idea? Was an idea needed or desired? To accept an idea of creation is to accept the imperfection of 'God'.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #1763193 - 07/30/03 03:26 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Human is but one manifestation of the source in the subjective flesh, the rest of physical existance makes up the collective pool of experience gained from it. Suffering leads to learning. It is but one more aspect of reality from which to gain experience. On the physical plane you perceive in polarities - GOOD OR BAD - but on the spiritual it's just two aspects of the same whole.

It all started when the aspect of creation split off itself and created a polarity (the physical realm) It created the opposite. The christians call him lucifer. But it's all the same being.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1763219 - 07/30/03 03:33 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

There will always be a "why". Until we reach that same level from which we can perceive why. In the 3rd dimension, we can only percieve a certain portion of ultimate reality. In the 4th it is a little bit more. We are sort of fluctuating between them right now. Even the beings who travel through many galaxies and meet with some of the most ancient civilizations in the universe, they still cannot perceive the full aspect of that reality. It is just too broad to grasp unless you are at that level.

To put it a bit more clearly, from 'their' perspective, this universe contains some billions of galaxies. Each galaxy contains some millions or billions of stars. However, since the onset of creation, the original creation has expanded itself millions of times over. So this Universe is only one within a vast 'egg' of universes. They have estimated there is 10to the 49th power number of creational universes within the 'original creation'.. the sum of which they call the Absolutum. This is a bit beyond our ability to comprehend, in the flesh. There is thought to be other creational universe outside of the Absolutum, but nothing is known of that. There is still the question why...THUS.... EVOLUTION CONTINUES.. and the learning never ends.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1763227 - 07/30/03 03:35 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

trukimbo2,

It's hard to know which came first. Have I applied to universal patterns the human concept that God is suffering or have universal patterns that imply God is suffering been applied to my own concepts?


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1763460 - 07/30/03 04:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

look to nature, plants and animals don't think at all like poeple, but you can describe them using human terms.

i would assume in the same way the universe doesn't think like a person.

shroomism check your pms


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Edited by truekimbo2 (07/30/03 04:31 PM)


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #1763840 - 07/30/03 06:49 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's cause the god of this reality isn't the only god, and our god (us) feld to existence to escape being part of the rest, the other gods, so that there could be two distinct entites here in this reality: god and goddess, or anima and animus or ying and yang or whatever.

and ying and yangs kids, etc.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Malachi]
    #1764559 - 07/30/03 11:20 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Does existence imply that the absolute god is suffering?

I would say that suffering implies the existence of ego.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1766599 - 07/31/03 03:33 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

No my friend...GOD created out of Love. Theologian John McQuarrie calls GOD the Father Primordial Being, while he refers to the Logos-Word-Son as Expressive Being, and the Spirit, Unitive Being. Of the Logos-Word-Son, John wrote: "Through Him all things were made that has been made..."

Jewish mysticism says that GOD contracted His Being away from a primordial point - a singularity - an infinitesimal 'absence' of His Infinity and that act was the Divine "FIAT LUX!" - Let There Be Light! - the Big Bang. We have evolved to the degree that we can recognize our Creator - marvel - become awestruck! Awe is the basis of religious experience - the 'Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans' - the Tremendous and Fascinating Mystery - GOD. We do not how to regard His Infinity and Eternity. Fear is the natural reponse. The Transcendental response is Love, and the Messenger of this message is Jesus the Christ.

In the Microcosm, a man should create life with a woman for the sake of Love. That living creature should be brought into existence for his/her parents to love. Eventually, when able to recognize that love, the child will Love his/her parents back - and learn to 'Honor thy mother and thy father.' The same is true on the Macrocosmic level.

Kabbalism maps the energies of GOD with the Tree of Life. The ineffable Name (Ain) begets the Limitless (Ain Soph) which begets the Limitless Light (Ain Soph Aur) - the Logos passes into Kether (Crown) and separates into dualism; The Supernal Father (Chokma -Wisdom) and The Supernal Mother (Binah - Understanding). This is own Supernal Mother-Father: the Name 'Abwoon' in Aramaic which is Mother-Father/Cosmic Birther. Do not confuse changeable nature with GOD. Do not confuse evil or the Wrath of God with GOD. Allow fire to be turned into light - horror into ecstasy. I am a Gnostic, but my GOD is not a demiurge - not a monster. "Though he slay me, yet will I hope in Him," (Job 13:15). Dude...it's ALL Good!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSource
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1767041 - 07/31/03 05:58 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks Markos!

So, all creation then is really about the love of 'Father Primordial Being' for the Son? And Jesus, as our ultimate example, showed us (as 'sons of God') that the proper reaction to the mystery of the 'Father' is love, rather than fear?

This is confirmed by an experience I had in the Mojave desert during which I smoked marijuana and called on Christ. I don't smoke often, so when I do it's enough to completely alter my perspective. Instead of Christ appearing outside myself, I became Christ. I stood as the only observer of the universe which was continually 'made' for me by the Love of my Father. I loved the Father and the Father loved me and that's all there was to it. It was beautiful.

But then (maybe my old ego patterns were asserting themselves again, maybe not) I realized I had to descend into the abyss to redeem creation and I actually lived the whole anguish in the Garden of Gethsemane...If I jumped into the bottom of creation - the very depths of Hell - would the Father really bring me back? The ultimate act of faith in God! So I've struggled with that question (to jump or not to jump) ever since.

However, I think the question still remains, but in a different form: Why was there an initial contraction?

Any conceptualization, no matter what tradition, has to deal with the seemingly inevitable conclusion that the 'Primordial Being' acted out of a desire to change it's state, which necessarily implies suffering. The problem of a suffering God arises spontaneously with any conception at all.

God+Creation=Suffering

The only way to get rid of this problem of a suffering 'God' is to deny that there is or ever was a 'creation' or even a 'God' who created. God never did anything, therefore God is nothing.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1767135 - 07/31/03 06:54 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

damn you've been smoking that weed from the moon haven't you


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OfflineTrypNballZium
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #1767534 - 07/31/03 09:41 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

the mystery of existance will forever bee a mystery.

the infinite cannot bee comprehended by the finite.

just enjoy what you can and bee thankful you DONT know it all.

truth?...you cant handle the truth.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1767747 - 07/31/03 10:56 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Your conclusion is a non sequiter. It is based upon your own psychological projections. GOD does not suffer. Man and nature in which man is embedded suffers. Creation is about a superabundance of Being, not about deficiency. GOD is not deficient. GOD is the fullness of Being.

We are not GOD, neither are we Christ. We may be graced with awareness of the Divine Presence that is immanent and Transcendent, and we may become suffused and transfigured by the Presence (Theosis), but we may not in Truth claim GOD/Christ as our identity. That is just ego-inflation by contact with the Transcendental.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSource
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1769667 - 08/01/03 01:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I certainly am not claiming to be Christ now, not in this present awareness and frame of identity with my ego (to which I still am stubbornly attached). I can't explain how my identity shifted to that of Christ, it certainly wasn't because of a conscious choice on my ego's part. It may have been as suggested that my ego simply inflated to assume God-like proportions which would explain the agony I experienced while contemplating the Abyss (big ego = big suffering). But who really knows?

But that is really getting off the original topic. Markos, you are exactly right when you say that my idea of God is based on my own psychological projections, but so is your idea of God. If you follow any idea (psychological projection) back to the beginning you have to face the question "Why", and then you have to face the answer "Suffering", otherwise you're not being honest or at least you're not facing the full implications of your belief. The problem is the idea of God to begin with.

My ultimate point is that to know God as it truly is (in its fullness of Being) we have to drop every idea including the idea of God itself, otherwise God IS deficient. As long as there is even a residue of God, there is suffering.

I'm sure you're familiar with the koan: "If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha". The idea, image or presence of God is the final illusion which must be cut-through.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: Source]
    #1769828 - 08/01/03 02:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

We will experience GOD to the degree that GOD reveals Him/Herself to us. The same is true for human beings. You can only know me inasmuch as I share myself with you. Moreover, you can never know me to the extent that I know myself.

I understand mystical experience from my own experiences, plus from the numerous mystics that I have studied over the past 30 years. Some formulations are necessary in ordeer to correcetly impart as much of our experiences to others. The Muslim mystic al Hallaj said, 'I am the Truth,' no doubt referring to the Divine 'I AM' that he experienced as the Essence of GOD (pure Identity). Nevertheless, because he phrased it thusly, he was convicted of 'shirk' - blasphemy - and he was crucified, after his hands and feet were cut off. The crucifixion was because of his similarity to the words attributed to Jesus, which Muslims were familiar with, and the amputations derive from some aspect of Islamic law. St. Paul said: 'I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me," and from that formulation, we understand that he remained a "clay vessel," which was filled with Divine Awareness [Holy Spirit], and that he was not confusing his ego with GOD. Meister Eckhart was excommunicated, and very nearly burned as a heretic for saying things like the 'I' which is me, and the 'I' which is GOD, are the same 'I.'

Genuine religious experience results in a diminishment of egotism and egoism, not grandiosity. It is best, when speaking to others, to treat GOD as Wholly Other than oneself to avoid pantheism, or solipcism or monism, or some other -ism which confuses or offends others. After all, when one is talking about 'others,' one is not in a state of mystical oneness with others, such that everyone is aware of The ONE. Westerners confuse ego with non-ego, so the formulation needs to be right when speaking. It helps to avoid self-deception as well.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Does Existence Imply That The Absolute God Is Suffering? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1769958 - 08/01/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Genuine religious experience results in a diminishment of egotism and egoism, not grandiosity




says you.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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