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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Natural and Unnatural
    #7844529 -

The meaning and distinction of these words has always been fuzzy to me, and most often seems to mean, "Things that sit right from my subjective world view, and things that do not sit right with my subjective world view." Obviously the definition of unnatural would simply be that which is not natural, so really, it's a definition of natural I'm seeking here.


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Re: Natural and Unnatural [Re: crumblebum]
    #7844548 -

Its a false dichotomy as far as i can tell, everything that exists in the universe is perforce natural and by definition there is nothing outside of the universe... thats the way i settled that question in my mind... then i thought to myself "self, you just wasted 3 good hours of your life!"

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Re: Natural and Unnatural [Re: straasha]
    #7844706 -

Yeah, it's pretty much the same conclusion I came too. But you have to stay curious about other people's interpretations. Still though, it seems we have need of this distinction.

It seems like we don't consider anything we do or manufacture natural. A house or a factory is unnatural, but a beehive or termite mound or deer path is natural. A labratory made diamond is distinguished from one made by tectonic pressure and heat as manufactured or synthetic, though they have the same physical composition. I think it's rather telling of the diamond trade and capitalism in general that two identical objects can have differing value depending on a meaningless initial source.

We seem to have a lot of difficulty reguarding ourselves and our actions as natural. Perhaps this is some element of self awareness? Perhaps because we attribute intentionality to ourselves and not to animals? Natural, therefore, seems to mean in many contexts, "An event or thing not affected by humans, as humans exist outside of nature."

At this point I'm making a straw man argument, as I myself stated the above definition. Let's just make that clear. Obviously, the false assumption there is that humans are outside of nature.

In a spiritual sense, maybe this is part of our human bondage, our ego. Some kind of guilt we feel about our perception that we can make choices or do bad things.

As much as I can intellectually recognize this, it's still difficult to shed it from my way of thinking, which I think can be said of many of the false dichotomies. If you take to that kind of philosophy/spirituality, it's one of those fundamental human things that must be shed before bigger and better truths can be moved on to, and that always seems to take a lot of work.


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Re: Natural and Unnatural [Re: straasha]
    #7845224 -

straasha said:
Its a false dichotomy as far as i can tell, everything that exists in the universe is perforce natural and by definition there is nothing outside of the universe... thats the way i settled that question in my mind... then i thought to myself "self, you just wasted 3 good hours of your life!"


while one could say that everything that is here is natural because it is, but there are lots of things that would not be had we not rearranged their chemical structure or combined different chemicals together


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channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Natural and Unnatural [Re: demiu5]
    #7845294 -

demius said:
straasha said:
Its a false dichotomy as far as i can tell, everything that exists in the universe is perforce natural and by definition there is nothing outside of the universe... thats the way i settled that question in my mind... then i thought to myself "self, you just wasted 3 good hours of your life!"


while one could say that everything that is here is natural because it is, but there are lots of things that would not be had we not rearranged their chemical structure or combined different chemicals together


The point that this leads me to is this: What is it about human action that is unnatural, or makes things unnatural? Why are changes made by other animal species and even plant species considered natural if our actions aren't?


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Re: Natural and Unnatural [Re: crumblebum]
    #7845349 -

i don't know of any other animals that has intentionally changed chemical structures to 'create' something that would not otherwise be found

if you have some examples, please share them

(note: i did not say that other animals/living beings don't participate in chemical reactions)


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channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Natural and Unnatural [Re: demiu5]
    #7845693 -

Would eating food not qualify as an intentional act, and does doing so not chemically change it?

What's the difference between intentionally changing something, and participating in that change? When an animal respirates, is it not intentionally taking in one mixture of chemicals, changing them, and releasing them? It takes the chemicals that are useful to it, and excretes the ones that are not, changing them in the process.

Still, even if we are the only species that induces deliberate changes in our world on the chemical level, how does that make us unnatural? If we are natural, under what circumstances our our actions unnatural?

If it's just a matter of chemical change, then cooking is unnatural and sawing babies heads off is natural. My point being, while it is a thing that potentially seperates us as a species, the catagory still leaves open a lot of things people would consider unnatural as natural, and declares many things broadly considered natural as unnatural.

Sea cucumbers can suddenly excrete their intestines to ward off predators, and horny toads can shoot blood out of their eyes, and while both are unique in these capacities, this doesn't make them all that special.

That said, for curiosities sake, and not as a real point of evidence or argument, some examples, albeit weak ones:

Bees, wasps, and many species related to them build physically complex structures, I'm not sure if there are chemical changes involved, as I don't exactly know where they get the wax, but it's still a pretty impressive structure.

I don't know how clear a grasp of what she was doing one of my old dogs had, but she routinely overate, dug holes, puked in them, waited a few weeks for it to ferment, then dug it up and got shitfaced off it. Whether she recognized the drunkeness and sought it, or was simply combining the common puke eating and burying things for later instincts that dogs have to a strange result unintentionally. Obviously that's how it started, but I often wonder if she enjoyed the buzz and began doing it on purpose. The same dog learned that it got more attention and leeway if it limped, and so would go into causeless limping fits when it wanted either.


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Re: Natural and Unnatural [Re: crumblebum]
    #7847341 -

Generally I think, the more we destroy, manipulate, override or push away other things in nature, which could stay up for themselves independent from our influence.
I think that is unnatural, as we 'influence' them and so can't get research results in the future about their 'uninfluenced' development.
Maybe we dig away our own nature by this way towards our own extinction.
The lost sense of our root to our provider nature in contrast to our arrogant sense of ourselves to solely depend upon ourselves. Control-Craziness.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
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"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Natural and Unnatural [Re: crumblebum]
    #7847354 -

crumblebum said:
The meaning and distinction of these words has always been fuzzy to me, and most often seems to mean, "Things that sit right from my subjective world view, and things that do not sit right with my subjective world view." Obviously the definition of unnatural would simply be that which is not natural, so really, it's a definition of natural I'm seeking here.


Everything is "natural" and comes from nature, ours and its is no real seperation.

To think something could be unnatural is not natural.:lol:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/08/08 10:49 AM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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