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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Skeptic to Believer?
    #7578360 -

As infants we believe EVERYTHING taught to us. Then we experience our first lie from an authority figure and the world changes dramatically. As we grow more worldly amd more knowledgable our gullibility factor drops.

I would like to read some stories about hardcore skeptics that reversed this trend and became believers about a certain field that they previously considered BS or fringe.


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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7578455 -

I was free of religious upbringing, my mother being an ex-comd mormon and father a divorced 'catholic', and neither felt religion was necessary for our family. However my extended family is hardcore Mormon and as long as I've known they tried to pull us in. From pretty young I was disgusted by religion and formed my own sort of militant atheism, holding views not unlike those professed by Dawkins, George Carlin, and even yourself.

I'm sure you'd brand me as a believer now...so why did I make the jump? Lots of psychedelics and time in nature is the bulk of it. For the 'record' I don't really believe any ancient doctrine or subscribe to any formal belief system. I blazed my own trail as best I could, but found that in certain places it shares ground with some of what is out there; in other words, people before have come to very similar 'conclusions' to mine and I fully understand why. Not only that but through the internet I find people that have or are in the process of reaching the same conclusions independently. I've had some life shattering experiences that I would not be able to exaggerate describing...the 'everythingness' of, I guess; experiences as convincing as convincing gets IMO. It would be pretty shallow just to write them off as mere hallucination or like. I know the difference. Well, that's my story.


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Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: Grok]
    #7578501 -

Hey, I need three strong skeptics to hold Grok down. Relax, it will only hurt for a minute.



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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: Grok]
    #7578548 -

That is kinda like my story, only I was raised Catholic....
But for me, being raised Catholic, I just felt like I was going thru the motions - doing what I was told to do....
(NO, not those kind of motions....!    :tongue:  )
I said the words that I believed, but they were empty words - because that is what people wanted to hear....

Then I grew up, and went my separate way - shunning the thought really, I just had no interest....
I wasn't a "skeptic", I just never believed in it, so why waste my time with it....
I just put it on the mental shelf as something I didn't understand and went on with my life....

Then later on in life, I became curious.....
There are just certain experiences that don't go away, and they can't be proven, or explained, or forgotten....
So, now I believe in what I believe - not for someone else, but because I believe in what I believe....
The proof is in my head....  The grey pudding....  :smirk:


>^;;^<


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7579109 -

As a teenager, I didn't believe in religion, at all. I believed when I died that's it, game over. After some intense salvia and LSA+MAOI experiences, I became more curious about the whole sprituality/religion deal.

Then one night I drank ayahuasca and the floodgates opened. I assume most folks here have read about ayahuasca or DMT, so I'll leave out the details. Basically, the experience felt more real than anything I had experienced in my entire life, so believing what I saw, felt, thought etc came naturally. It was like my eyes had been opened for the first time, no other drug I had ever tried had brought me to a place that felt more real than sobriety. I came to believe something along the lines of we are all one, our spirits will return to the source after death, maybe to be reincarnated later.

My beliefs lasted about a year I suppose. One night I had taken some kanna, then came here to lurk around P&S here at the shroomery. I was reading a post and then suddenly, SNAP, all my beliefs dissapeared in an instant. It may have been the greatest relief I have ever felt.

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7580057 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Hey, I need three strong skeptics to hold Grok down. Relax, it will only hurt for a minute.




The skeptic and the believer are two ends of the spectrum. I would be most interested in those who manage to find the middle.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7580075 -

Well, I wasn't really raised with any particular set of beliefs. My dad was a skeptic and my mom was a bit of a New Ager, but neither of them really tried to impose that on me(actually, I think my dad was a bit more aggressive about it). But I always seemed to have my own spirituality that came very naturally to me. I think I was about 7 or 8 when I first conjectured that the world might be a dream(I had never heard of concepts like Maya or the Demiurge). I dabbled in several different religions up through High School, notably Buddhism and Wicca. It was in college, when I started taking philosophy classes, that I started to distance myself from all of that. I distanced myself even further from it after posting in this forum for a long time(I guess I wanted to fit in with all the cool kids). I guess the least religious I became was when I adopted a political philosophy -- libertarianism -- and its accompanying ideas about natural rights. But even then, I was a bit of a naturalistic pantheist.

Then I found acid. I'm sure it's easy for an outsider to dismiss my acid experiences as mere hallucination, but what happened for me was for more than just seeing things. It changed something deep inside me. It let open the floodgates and brought out all this spirituality within me that I had been suppressing all these years, feeling it was somehow "irrational"(the scientific materialist equivalent of "sinful"). So I took a leap of faith, knowing that regardless of what people thought of me, I couldn't turn back. Later experiences with acid showed me what seemed to be psychic visions. I still haven't determined for sure if they're real, but I've had at least one vision that is testable(and no, I'm not going to try and win Randy's millions).

Later, I got into Robert Anton Wilson, who redefined for me what skepticism could be. In what I had read about him previously, I had heard him describe himself as a "model agnostic," so I assumed he would be like the skeptics on this forum. Imagine my surprise when I picked up one of his books and found him talking about synchronicities and Cabbalistic magick. More than anyone I'd heard of before, he seemed skeptical of the skeptics, and I started to see just how much dogma goes into a lot of so-called "skepticism."

Now, I'm not sure if I would call myself a "believer." I particularly like the saying in Icelander's sig: "I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions." Rather than saying I believe this or that, I would say that I'm just riding certain reality tunnels and seeing where they take me. It's not as dogmatic as being a believer, but it's a lot more fun than doubting everything without giving it a chance. I am still not sure about any of things I've experienced, but I will say that because I've experienced them, I feel I have slightly more reason to trust them than to trust the doctrines of those who say it isn't real. So I'll go with my intuition and see where it takes me. It's done a lot of good for me, and I don't see any reason to stop now.


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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7580129 -

I really appreciate the balance in your position here. I can also appreciate that you would know best what your "spiritual" experiences mean for you and that is what matters IMO.

One of the things that I do here at P&S is to continually debate my current beliefs and hopefully be open for them to change when needed. Currently I believe life is kind of a crapshoot in the sense of it being knowable. Today I am trying on the logical approach because I found out that I really wasn't good at it and many of my beliefs were hand me downs and wishful thinking, not backed by quality critical thought.  I still don't know if this is the best approach for me but I'm checking deeply  into it .

Often when I read a post like yours it has the ring of  truth to it. (whatever that means.:grin:)

Great post.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (10/31/07 10:40 AM)

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7581863 -

I was raised with no religion at all. Never attended any church ever. Was a self-described agnostic, thought Christians were deluded and foolish. This was until I was 35, seven years ago. If someone would have told me I would someday become Christian I would have told them the sun would burn out first before that would ever happen.

After many shroom/salvia/mg/nutmeg/dxm/ect experiences my outlook changed to maybe there is something more than physical reality. I never had any experience with Christianity and thought I would look into what everyone was on about. So I tried to understand it. It never made any sense to me. I tried reading the bible and it just didn't open up. So I went to bookstores to try to get a book or something to explain it. I actually had one book that I read a verse that stuck in my head, which was that, the Holy Spirit would convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment. I knew that if I never understood those three things I would never understand it. Well I thought I would try to act like a Christian, so anything I read I would try to do. I also found a radio station that had a guy on who would answer bible questions over the air and this helped me some. So the more I tried to act like a Christian the deeper I was realizing how far away I was from actually doing any of it. Over about two months I was falling deeper and deeper into the opposite of what I was trying to be. I was coming under conviction of who I was, inherently unrighteous, and there was nothing I could do to stop it, this was my nature. The Spirit was convicting me of sin, I didn't know what was happening at the time though. Once I got to the point of total despair the gospel opened up immediately to me. That I have no righteousness of my own, but Christ had made me righteous by His righteousness. A great weight was removed from me and from that point on the bible made sense. I was converted on 1/8/2000. So when I told my so-called "Christian" friends about this they has no idea about any of it. I know that they have never been converted and are currently lost, and don't even know it.

My likes and dislikes have drastically changed. It is like my internal guidance system has been replaced. Also I have a constant realization of the presence of the Spirit witnessing with my spirit.

Today I think almost all so called Christians I have met have no idea what truth is and are unregenerate. It is a sea of false religion that calls itself Christian and it fills the world. Only a very very small remnant actually knows the truth and is regenerate.

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7582009 -

Only a very very small remnant actually knows the truth

Thank you for noticing.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7582269 -

Chakras and the energy system that powers them. I researched New Age the same way I research Christianity, Buddhism, and any other religion/theory. There are some interesting concepts, but they're concepts... mind created forms. I'm not saying they can't lead to higher realities, that's the original intention, but it's just the voice of society, which was formed from the same stuff I am made of. Out of the entirety of New Age beliefs, chakras and kundalini are the only things which are provable, the only things I've held onto, and the only things which have made a difference in my life. Everything else seems to be ideas waiting to become delusions.

So I still think New Age is mostly garbage, but I did find what I was looking for, so I guess you could say I reversed the trend. The only caveat is that "chakra" and "kundalini" are just words. A person could come to know themselves without ever hearing those words.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: Icelander]
    #7582312 -

I kind of think of hardcore skeptics and hardcore believers as being similar in many ways. Both have accepted something as a kind of ultimate truth, the skeptics truth seems to be that everyone is full of shit :tongue: but they often also seem to believe in the idea that there is such thing as pure logical thought, like maths or science, and think they are definitely true. Both of these types of people also seem to become aggressive or dismissive when confronted with a idea which doesn't fit what they believe. I guess i try and not be too judgmental about the ideas out there, they all seem to have some kind of lesson to teach.

But if i had to choose one of those ways of thought i would choose the skeptic, because they seem to get things done, and usually have intelligent reasons for what they believe.

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7584554 -

I never believed in religion. My mum made me goto church and the vicar asked me to kneel and placed his hand above my head. At this point I a surge of energy flood through me, you could call it a religious experience.

However, I was still doubtful although became intrigued...
As my knowledge progressed I learned about suggestion and hypnotism. I now think that the experience was most likely a result of suggestion. The atmosphere in the church, the words the vicar used and the hand being placed there led me (unconsciously) to expect to feel something and I did.


I also thought that when you die you most likely just died and that was it. Thats all I can see is the persons gone, so it seems that there is nothing after that we can perceive. However, when my granddad died, my gran had a "vision" of him and he imparted very specific information about the future which turned out to be correct. This has lead me to change my opinion. The scales of rationalization now suggest that there is something more...

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: Icelander]
    #7584580 -

Icelander said:
One of the things that I do here at P&S is to continually debate my current beliefs and hopefully be open for them to change when needed.



:thumbup:

Yes, I recognised that old people were stuck in there beliefs and young people are open to the creation of new ones!  After much thought I decided also to endeavour to not get stuck in any beliefs and to just have suspicions that are always open to change.

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: DimensionX]
    #7584598 -

DimensionX said:
I kind of think of hardcore skeptics and hardcore believers as being similar in many ways. Both have accepted something as a kind of ultimate truth


I completely agree.  :sun:

Whats even worse is when somebody deems you to be one or the other!  Not realizing that you are open to change.

I'm often called a believer because I've seen an advanced flying machine at close range but I've always questioned it and been open to every possibility.  I do reject hallucination though as I was not the only one that saw it.  I think mass hallucination is possible but only with mass suggestion which was not the case with what I saw.

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Re: Skeptic to Believer? [Re: Icelander]
    #7586479 -

I believe, as long as something holds true to me :grin:
I even can believe two opposite things at once, if the chances are 50/50. I just stay in the uncertainty, believing that one or the other are true, even in perspective to the future. Of course, in this case my skepticism raises and I will investigate further, but in some cases the 50/50 still remains.
If I am tired of skepticism, I am skeptic of it and concentrate on the here and now. That automatically brings one up to the current operating believe-system of one's actual aware mind, which is unidimensional to the point, without doubt, like within an animal.
Another method if I am tired of skepticism is, to just knowingly focus on one side, and joyfully explore it's singular possibilities :smile:
Few things were left linear, most things are better conceptualized as probabilistic.
:heart:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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