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InvisibleXibalba
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2,114
Binary belief systems.
    #741272 - 07/12/02 11:13 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Either it's true or it's false.
Either it's good or it's evil.
You're either with us, or against us.
Liberal or Conservative.
Christian or heathen.
Coke or Pepsi.
Hot or not.
Right or wrong.

This is at its worst when it comes to politics- There are only two ways to think. By deciding which one you belong to, your position on the entire spectrum of unrelated Issues, from abortion to drug legalization to guns to taxes to censorship has been decided for you. But in the United states, these 2 parties have adapted to the point where they are just a tiny distance to the left or right of the center, and both own the minds of almost exactly 50% of the voting population. Go ahead, make a stand, proudly display that bumper sticker- they're both paid for by the same corporations.

A rock or a hard place.
Choose.
Now.
Of course the American political system is only one example. Humans like to do this to just about everthing.
Most often it's put forward as "us vs. them" where "we" are right, and "they" are wrong, so let the raping and pillaging begin.


How many times have you heard the clich? "there are two sides to every argument?" Can that be true? Shouldn't there be as many sides to every argument as there are people on the planet?

(That's not a yes or no question, by the way, so I expect some longer answers.)














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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Xibalba]
    #741404 - 07/12/02 11:59 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Shouldn't there be as many sides to every argument as there are people on the planet?

I'd say that it depends on the nature and scope of the argument. Some things fit fairly well with the binary thinking, some things don't. However, even when logic tells us that something can have only two possible states (the car either is painted black or is not painted black), there is the possibility of a "null" answer, meaning the answer is unknown. Life is full of more unknowns than anything else.

It is my opinion is that many people are 'programmed' to think (or believe) in the either-or manner as opposed to acknowledging that they don't know. They jump to conclusions when none are fully supported by evidence at hand or are even needed. For example, in many debates between athiest and those who believe in a diety, neither side will acknowledge that they don't know and both tend to look at agnostics as even more ignorant than they view each other. Both claim certainty of the unknown.
How can one be certain of the unknown?

This tendency in human thinking is very unfortunate for humans as individuals as well as a species. The first step in learning is an acknowledgement (on some level) of ignorance.


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Invisiblephrozendata
Carpal Tunnel

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 5,015
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Xibalba]
    #741414 - 07/12/02 12:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

There are atleast two sides, possibly more, to every argument. Can there be a one sided argument? You either agree or you dont, but, maybe you believe strongly in arguments from both sides so you're somewhere in the middle, lets say, a "maybe". Looks at the political spectrum. We usually see it as a semi-circle, that is, 180 degrees. Now, there are five different political outlooks ranging from left wing to right wing. What happens if you believe in in a left wing idea but are ovbiously a right wing believer? Does this start a 360 degree circle or do you dispisition yourself a certian amount to the left amount from your right wing believes?


--------------------
"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not
outside, not on other people" - Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Xibalba]
    #741550 - 07/12/02 01:11 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

How do you argue with someone who argues in the form of 1/0?
What if the argument is about thinking 1/0?


Basically, I keep running into hurdles like these. I really don't think it is possible to get a close-minded person to open up with dialog alone. Dialog is inherently cheap when it comes to issues like these. We can spend more time and energy trying to come up with creative ways to break down barriers (sans entheogens), but when it is just some guy you meet in a bar... what then? It's like you MUST give in to them and be seen as "weaker" because all you'll do by planting that seed of doubt (and not following through with the growth process) is fuck them up. Just look around you. I've run into countless people who have taken acid, not followed through with any personal growth, and they've totally fucked themselves up.

So, my final question:
Should one
A) be Johnny Appleseed and try to reach many
B) hold the hands of a few and show them the dance
C) do something else?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Sclorch]
    #741614 - 07/12/02 01:40 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Sclorch, to answer your final question:
B) hold the hands of a few and show them the dance

Why? The mass of humanity are domesticated primates and will follow the few who lead the way. The most leverage is to be achieved by working with a few who are able to recognize a good idea and easily change their minds. After reaching a certain critical mass, the concepts understood by the core group(s) will then begin to filter down to the common man. Such changes are usually generational.

Good luck on starting the new enlightenment as we enter the new dark ages. I'll give you any help I can.


Edited by Anonymous (07/12/02 01:51 PM)


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Xibalba]
    #741696 - 07/12/02 02:43 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Correct me if I am wrong but...is what you are saying is many human's tend to try and make everything look either "black" or "white", over-simplifying issues and thus not giving problems the appropriate amount of (individual) attension and consideration they need in order to make intelligent decisions???

If that is what you are saying, then I have said it a thousand times (but thanks for saying it again ) and I agree with you with great conviction!


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Xibalba]
    #741699 - 07/12/02 02:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Oh ya...BTW...
Coke or Pepsi.
COKE ANYDAY!


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlineerectronik
newbie

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 34
Loc: zeitung unter den See
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Binary belief systems [Re: ]
    #742024 - 07/12/02 04:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

OK, before I post, I should mention that a very large vein on my temple is about to erupt, because my coworker erased what I thought was what you would all read. Serves me right for trying to get paid to think.
Anyway, you guys ever find yourselves, during this discussion, or the process that led to it, wondering, "am I being too elitist?" "am I 'better' than those other people that think that way?" I'm curious to know if any of you've shared this insecurity with superiority.

I've pretty much decided that these kinds of questions are precisely the kind of thinking in question, i.e. 1/0. Whether you decide you are better or not still makes you a binary decision maker.
I believe in frustration with the masses, but dissassociation from them is usesless. I can pretty much think of something interesting and important to talk about with most people. Even when I can't, I talk they way I like, about the things I like, and usually end up as one of countless stereotypes as I pass through the binary-quantizer in their thought reflex. Should we be bitter for being misunderstood? Well, in one sense, I've never been misunderstood, as people always seem to "understand" me, with their labels and categories. But as for actual understanding, yes, I would love to be understood more, but I'm getting better and better at finding the people I crave. That's why I'm here.
As for the rest of humanity, yes, we need to teach them to dance. Gotta go, boss man's a-comin.


--------------------
"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.


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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Sclorch]
    #742188 - 07/12/02 05:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"How do you argue with someone who argues in the form of 1/0?"

I don't argue or discuss deep things with those that cannot understand. It saves my breath and their ears.

"So, my final question:
Should one
A) be Johnny Appleseed and try to reach many
B) hold the hands of a few and show them the dance
C) do something else?"

This assumes one has something to teach or is not in need of teaching. Each of us has the answers we are open to receiving.

Maybe the answer is D: learn what you are supposed to learn. I do not feel responsible for humanity or for anyone to whom I have not committed myself. My job is to learn.

Else how will I improve?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: ]
    #742200 - 07/12/02 05:48 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

(the car either is painted black or is not painted black)

Not really true. Under magnification, one will see the black paint to contain millions of subtle hues. "Black" is simply a generic way of describing this morass of colors.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Swami]
    #742221 - 07/12/02 05:55 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

That may be true but the logic of the case stands firm. I assume the poster meant that the car is either the morass of colors you define as black or some other color. If any color is a complex of subtle hues we still refer to that color as what we see with our eyes and not a microscope. Your explanation is reductionism.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Xibalba]
    #742254 - 07/12/02 06:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Either it's true or it's false.
Either it's good or it's evil.
You're either with us, or against us.
Liberal or Conservative.
Christian or heathen.
Coke or Pepsi.
Hot or not.
Right or wrong.


Ginger or Mary Ann?

Why choose? I'll take both!



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Swami]
    #742290 - 07/12/02 06:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Swami, I know this is a little off topic but someone mentioned in another thread that they understood you to be a female. Now I see that you find Ginger and Mary Ann equally interesting. Are you a lesbian? If so, is this the explanation for your sometime acerbic tone to most other posters whom I assume are male?


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: ]
    #742383 - 07/12/02 07:18 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Mr_Mushrooms
Each of us has the answers we are open to receiving.

Okay, so if I ask you... "What is my wife's name?" and you are 'open to receive the answer,' that means you have the answer? Okay, open up...

What is my wife's name?

No cheating, you already have the answer, just post it here.


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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Swami]
    #742400 - 07/12/02 07:25 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Swami, regarding the car that is either painted black or not painted black:
Under magnification, one will see the black paint to contain millions of subtle hues. "Black" is simply a generic way of describing this morass of colors.

I have one thing to say to you, a difference that makes no difference is no difference.


Edited by Anonymous (07/12/02 07:33 PM)


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OfflineArisEve
My Chronic

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 373
Loc: Use a GPS if ya wanna kno...
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Xibalba]
    #742430 - 07/12/02 07:36 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Why I dont vote at all. Either side I chose will still yield to the same future... In the end its the government, and not the people that make the world how it is. Democracy is a double edged bastard sword.


--------------------
Simple pleasures in life are only to momentarily distract you from the obviousness of lifes reality...

-ArisEve



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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Autonomous]
    #742436 - 07/12/02 07:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Here Autonomous, I devised a little not quite binary poll...


Is Swami a lesbian?
Yes, and a damn sexy one
No, it's a man, baby
How the hell should I know?




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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OfflineArisEve
My Chronic

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 373
Loc: Use a GPS if ya wanna kno...
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: Swami]
    #742438 - 07/12/02 07:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, black is essentially every color or not a color at all.


--------------------
Simple pleasures in life are only to momentarily distract you from the obviousness of lifes reality...

-ArisEve



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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: ArisEve]
    #742554 - 07/12/02 08:17 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

maybe the postmodern practice of deconstruction would interest those who ask such questions as these. when you deconstruct something you take apart the binary oppositions inherent in whatever logic you are deconstructing and show that those oppositions are depenent upon one another. as in..what is a heterosexual without the concept of homosexual...or instead of "cowboys are heroes and indians are villians" we could try "cowboys couldn't be heroes without wiley wicked indians types to be thier villians". i think. it's all rather involved and you have to read a lot of books to even be able to fake it.


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Anonymous

Re: Binary belief systems. [Re: ]
    #743075 - 07/13/02 04:04 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"Okay, so if I ask you... "What is my wife's name?" and you are 'open to receive the answer,' that means you have the answer? Okay, open up...

What is my wife's name?"

How could I be open to receive the answer and have it at the same time? As I said, "My job is to learn."

Your question contains the fallacy of equivocation. I did not imply that the questions or answers dealt with empirical data like your wife's name. I was referring to more esoteric truths. But I am sure you knew that.


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