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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
How can you trust your beliefs?
    #1897683 - 09/09/03 12:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I am going to start with the premise that if you are unhappy, it is because your belief system is in error.

If I were taller, I would be happy.

If Sandy loved me, I would be happy.

If I had a new 350Z, I would be happy.

If I was single again, I would be happy.

If I was married, I would be happy.

If I had more money, I would be happy.

If I lived in the Bahamas, I would be happy.

Ad infinitum...

So I repeat, if you are not content, then your belief system is skewed.

If this portion of your belief system is malfunctioning, then how can you be certain that any other part (political views, religion, mysticism, etc.) of your system is not also fallacious?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Posts: 24,849
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1897777 - 09/09/03 12:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, if you aren't content with something, than something within your belief system is messed up. This doesn't mean that you have to stay stuck where you are, or can't pursue any interests, it is just that you shouldn't feel emotionally upset about not having whatever it is that you are lacking..

We really can't trust our beliefs, because certian things we have no way of knowing, but then to not trust beliefs makes them not beliefs at all.. paradoxes are fun!

Anyways, yeah. Sorry I couldn't add more to this, or think my thoughts through, but there is work to be done on the TOOL project! Huzzah!
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,376
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1897841 - 09/09/03 01:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I can't trust my own beliefs. I try not to hold beliefs in the first place, so I avoid disbelieving in myself.

If you avoid having a belief system for anything but yourself, than how can your belief system be flawed in anythung but yourself?

And if everything else is just an idea, a theory, then it remains available for further testing - always.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1897859 - 09/09/03 01:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I totally agree. Happiness comes from within.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLucidsPuppet
Puppet Master

Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 60
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: trendal]
    #1897868 - 09/09/03 01:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

", if you are not content, then your belief system is skewed. "
I think even if u are content, your belief system might be
"skewed", well at least dangerous...
I mean think of those people who flew planes into the twin towers
killing thousands of innocent people. I don't know if they were
content, but at the very least they were convinced that they were
doing the right thing... that's pretty scary (not for them, obviously, but for the rest of the world).
My mom is an interesting creature... she's ALWAYS right...or so
she believes. She has her own version of religion etc and her
beliefs are ALWAYS 100% RIGHT ! Now this works perfectly for her,
cause she's perfectly content all the time - after all she's never
done a single wrong thing in her life and she knows it all. But,
her beliefs could affect those around her (like me !)
in painful ways...
I personally, cannot bring myself to trust my beliefs, which makes
life tough...my rule of thumb is just to do the best that I can,
and try not to hurt anyone in obvious ways...


--------------------
I feel so used...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1897920 - 09/09/03 01:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If this portion of your belief system is malfunctioning, then how can you be certain that any other part (political views, religion, mysticism, etc.) of your system is not also fallacious?

I just wanna bold that one. :wink: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1898261 - 09/09/03 03:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The only things that are certain in life are death and taxes.

That is all.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1898323 - 09/09/03 03:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The only things that are certain in life are death and taxes.

That is all. 



That, and that one can be intricately linked to the other :grin:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1898377 - 09/09/03 03:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> So I repeat, if you are not content, then your belief system is skewed.

What do beliefs have to do with being content?  Every example you posted was based on want or desire...  I need something to feel a certain way.  When the something doesn't help me feel a certain way, then it is the somethings fault and not my own.  The ego is a tricky beast.  Happiness comes from within.  When I no longer need to be happy, I will be happy.

> If I lived in the Bahamas, I would be happy.

Probably not... you would most likely be without power, or clean drinking water... and lucky to still have a home.  The hurricane they just had wasn't pretty.  :frown:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1899299 - 09/09/03 07:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'm happy, I guess that means I'm right. :wink:


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1899835 - 09/09/03 09:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

kinda funny that most problems (including most of which you mentioned) in people lives involve withs and withouts. but you're right, if you aren't happy or content, then something needs to be looked at.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: kaiowas]
    #1901649 - 09/10/03 11:47 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Long ago in China there was a famous student of Zen Master Ma Jo named Han Ong. Everyone said to him, "You are lucky, you are happy." Then he said, "What is luck? What is happiness?" He always spoke like this.

He had a good horse, which he liked to ride every day. One day the horse disappeared, so everyone said, "Oh, are you unhappy? Are you sad?" He said, "What is sadness? What is happiness?" No feeling. His horse ran away, but he only said, "What is sadness? What is happiness?" Everyone said, "This man has no feeling.'' Usually, if someone is attached to something and it goes away, then he is very sad. But Han Ong only said, "What is sadness? What is happiness?"

A week later Han Ong got a very good horse; we say, jun me. This means it only has to see the shadow of the whip and it runs. This is a very clever horse. So everyone said, "You are happy. You are lucky." He said, "What is luck? What is happiness?" Only this. No feeling. Then everybody said, "This man is very lucky." His son liked the horse and rode it every day. He only had to mount the horse and it would go, so he rode around and around, very happy. Then one day while riding, he fell and broke his leg. So everyone said, "Ah, I am sorry your son broke his leg. Are you sad?" He said, "What is sadness? What is happiness?" No feeling.

Soon after this, there were many wars, with North China and South China fighting each other. All the young people had to go to the army. But Han Ong's son had a broken leg, so he could not go; he stayed at home and only helped his parents. His leg was not so bad, so he could work in the garden and help them with their chores. Everybody said, "You are lucky. You are happy." So he said, "What is luck? What is happiness?" This style speech.

This is Han Ong's famous, "What is happiness? What is sadness?" His whole life he used only this speech to teach other people. Outside, happiness appears, luck appears, sadness appears, but he is not moving. "What is true happiness? What is sadness?" Not moving. This mind is very important. Originally there is nothing. If you attach to something, then you have luck, happiness, sadness, suffering -- everything appears. If you don't attach, this is clear mind. Then there is no sadness, no happiness, no unhappiness -- they all disappear. So if you attach to name and form, if you attach to words, then your mind is also moving. Don't attach to anything. Then your mind is enough. Then appearing, disappearing, whatever happens outside doesn't matter. Then teaching other people is possible. So Han Ong's friends and all his students learned from him. Only one phrase: "What is sadness? What is happiness?" This means your mind moving is no good. If you make happiness, if you make sadness, that's no good. Don't make anything; don't attach to anything; don't hold anything. Then you are complete. This was his teaching. - Zen Master Seung Sahn


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1902319 - 09/10/03 03:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I trust my beliefs by believing that I cannot trust my beliefs, and trusting in the idea that I'll never "fully know."


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1902591 - 09/10/03 05:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
I trust my beliefs by believing that I cannot trust my beliefs, and trusting in the idea that I'll never "fully know."



Paradoxical, but I get your point.
Reminds me of a great book I read by Prema Chodran (sp?)
"Comfortable with Uncertainty"


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: lucid]
    #1903542 - 09/11/03 12:59 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'll have to check that book out.

Pema Chodron


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1905230 - 09/11/03 02:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

So I repeat, if you are not content, then your belief system is skewed.




Wow, swami! This is an uncharacteristically disprovable statement that I would not expect to hear from your mouth.

For example:

I believe that the US military is overfunded, and it makes me unhappy. But it would solve nothing to change my belief system and ignore the fact that the military is overfunded. I mean, it might make me happier, but it wouldn't change the negative consequences of that reality (ie, less federal funding for education, healthcare, and science).

There are a lot of things about this world that piss me off, but I have to recognize them as reality because anything else would be delusion. Does recognizing the unpleasant flaws in the world void their reality? I dont think so. The only thing that can change reality is exerting conscious effort to make it better.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1905368 - 09/11/03 02:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
But it would solve nothing to change my belief system and ignore the fact that the military is overfunded.  I mean, it might make me happier, but it wouldn't change the negative consequences of that reality (ie, less federal funding for education, healthcare, and science). 





Swami's statement, the way I see it (can't exactly speak for Swami), is about believing that some sort of material possession will bring you happiness. That if I was rich, I would be happy, that my problems were solved, or if I were the boss of my workplace, I could get what I wanted done and I would be happy...

This applies for other things than just material possesions, social status, or power, as well... If I find out how the world really works, what is really going on, I'll be happy... anyways, yeah, the list is huge.

There are two belief systems that will bring you complete and infinite happiness. One is not having any attachments to anything in the world, only preferences that do not trigger any negative emotions when you do not "get" something.. And being mentally disillusioned, blissfully ignornat, anything that gets you locked up in the mental hospital...

So, you can either become more aware of everything and find complete happiness, or you can go insane and find happiness.. you know, when you are the Queen of England and what is really happening in reality does not fit in with what is going on in your head... :grin:

In any case, I will let you all choose which way you want to go..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1905475 - 09/11/03 03:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

In any case, I will let you all choose which way you want to go..




oh, thank you for granting us this sacred privelege, Almighty Fireworks God :smile:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 463
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Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: Swami]
    #1905568 - 09/11/03 03:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

faith baby! faith!


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineShadesofgray
Stranger
Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 15
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: How can you trust your beliefs? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1905604 - 09/11/03 03:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think I would like being "insane". Are you sure insane people are happy?


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