fireworks_god said:

If police didn't carry guns, then criminals would, as it would give them an edge over the police. So basically you think that the police should be incapable of protecting themselves and others by using guns?

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You cant really argue with the facts that countries with gun control have a lot less violent crime and are generally safer places to live for the people who live there.

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fireworks_god said:

America is the only nation in the developed world that thinks like this. People kill people with guns. You're not going to get a strangler massacaring 30 people in one go.
You're also not going to be able to take down a deer with a knife.

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(edit) also, people who say that banning guns is pointless as criminals will always be able to get them: making something readily available is simply encouraging the problem.
Guns are not "readily available". Perhaps we could take more steps in regulation to more effectively screen it out, but what you fail to understand is that you cannot obstruct the right of the American people to own guns. I mean, you have fucking nuts that will hiijack an airplane and kill people with it - are we going to take away airplanes now?

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Non-argument. An aeroplane's primary purpose is transportation, a gun's only purpose is to threaten/wound/kill. You're smarter than that
Guns are readily available! As I understand it, you dont have to have any documentation to purchase a firearm in America, in most states at least. As long as you are old enough, thats enough. You have no way of tracking someone that bought a gun if you later find out they might be a threat to public safety. Thats as nuts as the psychos themselves.

Quote:

Reduce the availability, reduce the number in circulation, reduce the number of shootings.
You forgot about the millions of people that have a right to own guns, who use them for valid reasons. Your approach is not realistic in America, at least (the other countries in the world can be as stupid as they like). One could say with the same line of reasoning that by reducing the availability of cars, we subsequently reduce the number of car accidents. It isn't a reasonable statement to make.

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Also, isnt it morally repulsive that your country legally provides these murderers with their weapons? Your government allowed this man to purchase and use a firearm to do this deed.
No, it isn't. His actions were his own. In America, we don't appreciate it when our rights as Americans are taken away because of the actions of a few. England is used to having a monarchy that controls their lives and makes their decisions for them - well, guess what, America said fuck that.

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Im Scottish, not English. The monarchy has no power at all! The Queen has no influcence on our lives or our decision, that all stopped a very long time ago. Id say your goverment is slightly more fucked up than ours. We win "In America, we don't appreciate it when our rights as Americans are taken away because of the actions of a few." Thats what I said in my post. You are unwilling to make personal sacrifices for the greater good.

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I say the blood's partly on the hands of the pro-gun lobbyists. if everyone was anti-gun, noone could be said to have encouraged use of guns.
Yeah, now if we can only get everyone to be anti-drug as well, then there would be no usage of drugs!
I say the blood is in the hands of the individual who committed the act. The act was unfortunate, but its reality. Maybe some people just have a difficult time dealing with reality and feel the need to look for ways to control other people's lives.

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Our rights are our own - a lot of people do not understand what it means to live in a land of freedom.

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Land of freedom?

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I have not read the whole thread, I just came across this incredibly stupid post about half way through and had to respond regardless of anything else subsequent.
I had the exact same experience you did.
I decided to reply to mr.kite's post instead though because it implied the same thing and was more fun to reply to.

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You cocky fucking wanker! j/k Calling someones opinion incredibly stupid is fairly immature, but what else would i expect from a gun-totin yank?

Redstorm said:

I'm sorry. That was supposed to be directed towards Gazzbut. My apologies.

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S'all good.

lonestar2004 said:

Facts about the Great UK UTOPIA

One in three criminals under the age of 25 owns or has access to a firearm, the Government's researchers have discovered. A continuing parliamentary inquiry into the growing number of black market weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in circulation - double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago - and that criminals are more willing than ever to use them."
  "gun crime is so bad in Nottingham that the city has been dubbed "Assassination City" -- you don't get a nickname like that for nothing!"

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criminals

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When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.

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You're not seriously trying to build your argument using data from over a century ago? Thats as bad as fundamentalist christians trying to apply their bible-law from 2000 years ago to todays society.

FrenchSocialist said:

Redstorm said:

I'm sorry. That was supposed to be directed towards Gazzbut. My apologies.

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S'all good.

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you lucky he didnt shoot u!

lonestar2004 said:

I found facts that show the crime/murder rates rising in the UK.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/crvs.htm

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lonestar2004 said:South Africa (strict gun control): 496 murders per million people
Russia (strict gun control): 202 murders per million people

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lonestar2004 said:Switzerland:(There's a full-auto weapon in every Swiss household.) 0.00921351 Murders per 1,000 people



Switzerland:(There's a full-auto weapon in every Swiss household.) 0.00921351 Murders per 1,000 people

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Also, why not start a gun control thread instead of talking about gun control in the VA Tech Massacre thread.

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FrenchSocialist said:

Don't you think gun prevalence can be seen as a cause of gun violence, and that being the case can't one say conservatives are responsible in the sense that by campaigning against gun control they maintain gun prevalence?

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Phred said:

That's a pretty tangential connection at best when one considers the fact that American citizens have been armed since the beginning of the nation -- a nation whose legislators have been majority Liberal as often as they have been majority Conservative.

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GazzBut said:

Lots of nice pictures Lonestar but I think Im quite happy with being defenceless. Its blatanly obvious that if guns were legalised in the UK it would become a much more dangerous place to live. This is fact and if you think anything else you are an idiot. Basically you yanks think you are still fucking cowboys and it is sad and pathetic to watch.

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Gun crime in London is increasing so rapidly that police fear they may not have the resources to cope, the BBC has learned.

Members of the Metropolitan Police's SO19 firearms unit say lack of staff, money and out-of-date equipment is threatening to affect their work.

The BBC's Zubeida Malik says that at a meeting this week, officers reported there had been a 100% increase in firearms-related crime in the capital this year.

This follows the publication of Home Office figures last month which showed that violent crime in England and Wales was continuing to rise.


These criminals out there are very well equipped

SO19 officer

The London Borough of Lambeth had the highest rate of robberies.

The borough was the focus of attention just over two weeks ago when police shot dead 29-year-old Derek Bennett - he was brandishing a gun-shaped cigarette lighter.

Officers serving in SO19 told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that recruitment to the unit had dropped dramatically, and that the pressures of the job were taking a toll on members.

The firearms unit deals with between 20 and 30 incidents a day.

Formidable arsenals

Its members say they deal with criminals whose weapons are more sophisticated than theirs, and who even wear body armour.

Scotland Yard said this week than police in London may be issued with electric stun guns to defend themselves from violent criminals.

The "taser" gun, which uses an electrical shock to cause temporarily paralysis, could be introduced by the end of the year.

One SO19 officer told Today that when he joined the unit in 1995 there had been 750 applications, compared with just 120 last year.

He said the unit needed more money to cope with the rise in violent crime.


I think we're coping at the moment, but we mustn't be complacent

SO19 officer
"We need more personnel in the long term if we're going to keep up with things, but that's again a difficult matter, because of the fact we're not getting the people that want to join the department as we used to," he said

"We must keep up-to-date with our equipment, and I don't mean just firearms, but the equipment we use in other instances, for example opening doors, all sorts of things.

"If we're going to fight crime in London, and believe me, these criminals out there are very well equipped themselves, we need to be one step ahead.

"I think we're coping at the moment, but we mustn't be complacent.

"I would hate to think that we haven't got the correct resources and enough resources to deal with that crime that's going on there, because at the end of the day the buck stops with SO19 - there is no one else to deal with the gun crime in London."

'Instil confidence'

Lord Mackenzie, former head of the Police Superintendents' Association, told the Today programme that the number of armed police should be increased to deal with the rise in gun-related crime.

He added that officers needed to be "given confidence" to use firearms.

"We pride ourselves in being unarmed but what we've got to do, obviously, is to give our officers the best training, the best equipment, and of course give them confidence," he said.


WATCH/LISTEN
ON THIS STORY

The BBC's Zubeida Malik
"Figures reveal a 100% increase in firearms-related crime"
The state of the nation

Violent crime soars
UK's crime hotspots
Crime figures by region

Background
Straw's uphill battle
Public losing confidence
Fighting street crime

TALKING POINT
How can we stop crime?
See also:

02 Aug 01 | UK
Police consider stun guns
19 Jul 01 | UK
Violent crime on the rise
17 Jul 01 | UK
Calm urged after Brixton shooting
14 May 01 | UK
Police 'powerless to fight crime'
Internet links:

Metropolitan Police

The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites
Top UK stories now:

Postcode lottery in GP services
Leanne killer jailed for life
Tories attack Brixton drugs scheme
Straw defends arms sales change
IVF mix-up heads for court
Police shoot man on the M6
New challenge excites Venables
Judge urges life sentence shake-up
Links to more UK stories are at the foot of the page.

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lonestar2004 said:

GazzBut said:

Lots of nice pictures Lonestar but I think Im quite happy with being defenceless. Its blatanly obvious that if guns were legalised in the UK it would become a much more dangerous place to live. This is fact and if you think anything else you are an idiot. Basically you yanks think you are still fucking cowboys and it is sad and pathetic to watch.

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Remember


  The "fucking cowboys" saved the limp-wristed Brits from the NAZIS...    (WITH GUNS)



FACTS

Murder rates by country


Colombia (strict gun control): 618 murders per million people
South Africa (strict gun control): 496 murders per million people
Jamaica (strict gun control): 324 murders per million people
Venezuela (strict gun control): 316 murders per million people
Russia (strict gun control): 202 murders per million people
Mexico (strict gun control): 130 murders per million people
United States (partial gun control): 43 murders per million people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Facts about the Great UK UTOPIA


One in three criminals under the age of 25 owns or has access to a firearm, the Government's researchers have discovered. A continuing parliamentary inquiry into the growing number of black market weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in circulation - double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago - and that criminals are more willing than ever to use them."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,363761,00.html

  "gun crime is so bad in Nottingham that the city has been dubbed "Assassination City" -- you don't get a nickname like that for nothing!"


Nottingham Chief Constable, Steve Green: can't cope with all the murders in Nottingham.


Not so long ago, Nottingham was a decent city, not at all notorious for violent crime or crime in general. In recent years however, Nottingham has become notorious for out-of-control violent crime, gun crime, and hard-drug dealing; in fact, gun crime is so bad in Nottingham that the city has been dubbed "Assassination City" -- you don't get a nickname like that for nothing! The first thing any criminal in Nottingham (or in any part of Britain) does is to "tool up", which is why so many criminals in Nottingham, no matter how low-level, are carrying at least one. Such is the widespread availability of guns in Nottingham (and in Britain in general for that matter) that police often find young children carrying loaded guns. All this means that drug-dealing criminals, armed to the teeth, now control large parts of Nottingham, with the law-abiding public at their mercy.

likewise, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool all suffer from widespread gun violence."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4344595.stm

Why Britain needs more guns


Violent crime in America has been plummeting for 10 consecutive years, even as British violence has been rising. By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape.

When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.
















http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/crvs.htm

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